Shooting big boss in mgs3 was a lot more heart wrenching and emotional than any movie ive seen in the last couple of years. I don't know if that technially makes it art, but if I can play a game that is fun and be greeted with an ending that makes me wanna hug my mom, im happy
Just on the comment about enjoyable...all art is in some sense meant to be enjoyed. Games just as much, but games would be the first real kind of interactive art,you don't alter a painting or explore a song as its played, but you can in a game
Games can be way more emotional then a movie because you become immersed much greater than from just watching the action.
I'm a big believer that games can be deep and meaningful and still be fun, albeit a different kind of fun. And I think we are really only scratching the surface on this.
I think as soon as it becomes a lot cheaper to produce a solid game then we will see more of these types of games, because as of right now if it doesn't appeal to the general public there really isn't much point in investing millions of dollars into it.
I just hope that game developers continue to push the envelope and don't get lazy like EA for example.
By the way, great post. I love the games as art debate.
I think as soon as it becomes a lot cheaper to produce a solid game then we will see more of these types of games, because as of right now if it doesn't appeal to the general public there really isn't much point in investing millions of dollars into it.
I just hope that game developers continue to push the envelope and don't get lazy like EA for example.
By the way, great post. I love the games as art debate.
Yes, gaming should be first and foremost just gaming! Fun, excitement, something other than work. There is an artistic viewpoint every which way in a game; however if the storyline quality does not match the graphic art quality, 7-8 times out of 10, the gamer doesn't continue with the game. There is a real need for balance with a game, although if the storyline outweighs the graphics, I would think there'd be a good chance of survival. There are so many games out the now so gamers can be as picky as my grandmother, and so many games get marked as "bad eggs". *Just a few thoughts to throw out*
Although not very interested in all the "words", I your title twice, so I think I probably get the gist of things.
I actually think that we have a tiered system already, which is what you seem to be promoting. You have a game like Psychonauts, which people just didn't "get". And as gamers get older, and publishers feel that there are enough intelligent, mature consumers to justify developing an intelligent, mature product, these products will increase.
The greatest inhibitor to producing art is the technological demands of programming a modern game, I think. There is a great documentary called American Movie which chronicles the struggles of this would-be filmmaker in Wisconsin trying to self-produce a horror film called "Coven" (rhymes with "woven"). You have one man without formal training and almost no money wrangling his friends and neighbors to help him, and he gets 'er done. With a game, though, the barrier to entry is high now. To create a good-looking 3D game with HD environments is not possible for one person. So you get creation by committee, which often sucks the creative juices out of a project. One of the lead writers of Portal says Valve is one of the rare places where this doesn't happen.
I think good games often have a powerful director at the helm who can make sure that the project stays true to his or her vision. Miyamoto, Kojima, Will Wright -- these are the people who are ultimately capable, I think, of creating art because at this point they also control the technology.
I actually think that we have a tiered system already, which is what you seem to be promoting. You have a game like Psychonauts, which people just didn't "get". And as gamers get older, and publishers feel that there are enough intelligent, mature consumers to justify developing an intelligent, mature product, these products will increase.
The greatest inhibitor to producing art is the technological demands of programming a modern game, I think. There is a great documentary called American Movie which chronicles the struggles of this would-be filmmaker in Wisconsin trying to self-produce a horror film called "Coven" (rhymes with "woven"). You have one man without formal training and almost no money wrangling his friends and neighbors to help him, and he gets 'er done. With a game, though, the barrier to entry is high now. To create a good-looking 3D game with HD environments is not possible for one person. So you get creation by committee, which often sucks the creative juices out of a project. One of the lead writers of Portal says Valve is one of the rare places where this doesn't happen.
I think good games often have a powerful director at the helm who can make sure that the project stays true to his or her vision. Miyamoto, Kojima, Will Wright -- these are the people who are ultimately capable, I think, of creating art because at this point they also control the technology.
dammit, i couldn't even get my lead in joke right. I read your title twice
also, long comment got unfocused and out of hand. think i'll post a blog entry tonight that might touch on this.
also, long comment got unfocused and out of hand. think i'll post a blog entry tonight that might touch on this.
I was pretty much going to respond with what your last paragraph said. There ought to be games that are purely escapist nonsense fun, and there ought to be games that are deep narratives that are inarguably artworks. There's no reason why we can't have both.
The true travesty here was that you mentioned Workman and Niero while snubbing the comedy genius of Nex. Every time I read a column by Nex, a little bit of a man-crush grows in my heart. And possibly my crotch.
They'll be respectable as soon as the current leading generation is dead. Give it 15-20 years, and games will be completely mainstream, and us nerds will have emigrated to virtual reality.
Well, I think the first purpose of games is to be entertaining and to sell well. Because of that, I doubt that it will become the focus of big developers, maybe some independent studio will come up with something that will blow everybody away.
First of all, about Destructoid: I don't see why a person can't enjoy Ron Workman, Nex, and Rev. Anthony all equally. I love the silliness, I love the intellectual humor, and I enjoy the more thoughtful, cereal material. If a person throws any one of these things out, then I think they're being foolish and missing out on much of what makes Destructoid great.
Okay, so, moving on. There's a great danger in trying to make artistic games. Obviously, the danger is pretension. Try to make something quality and you could end up with BioShock or Portal or, well, just about any other Valve game. Try too hard and you get a Jericho or a Lair. Hopefully Mass Effect and Assassin's Creed will fall into the former category. Too Human, on the other hand? They're just setting themselves up to fall into the latter group.
As for being fun? I see no reason why "respectable," fun, and enjoyable can't go hand-in-hand. I think we need to define what "fun" means, in this context. The very definition of "fun" is something that causes enjoyment. And certainly when we play a game like BioShock or Portal, we're enjoying it despite, and because of, its respectability and quality.
But then, if we're talking about Ron's "drunkenness and cocks" kind of fun, then that's just a matter of taste... I'm losing focus, so I'll just shut up. Hope that made sense.
Okay, so, moving on. There's a great danger in trying to make artistic games. Obviously, the danger is pretension. Try to make something quality and you could end up with BioShock or Portal or, well, just about any other Valve game. Try too hard and you get a Jericho or a Lair. Hopefully Mass Effect and Assassin's Creed will fall into the former category. Too Human, on the other hand? They're just setting themselves up to fall into the latter group.
As for being fun? I see no reason why "respectable," fun, and enjoyable can't go hand-in-hand. I think we need to define what "fun" means, in this context. The very definition of "fun" is something that causes enjoyment. And certainly when we play a game like BioShock or Portal, we're enjoying it despite, and because of, its respectability and quality.
But then, if we're talking about Ron's "drunkenness and cocks" kind of fun, then that's just a matter of taste... I'm losing focus, so I'll just shut up. Hope that made sense.
I apoligize for not elaborating more in my earlier comment, I was in a hurry. But I do agree on most of your points here. The part about Okami being a well-made Zelda clone at it's core, that was very honest of you, and I totally agree. Also, your assessment of Silent Hill was dead on, as I agree about the gameplay mechanics. A very slow game, and dull combat to boot. Resident Evil is now a full on action game, one of my favorites, but it can't match the pyschological thrills of Silent Hill. To me, that makes Silent Hill a work of art, akin to a serious film, and Resident Evil more of a popcorn flick. But it's the ultimate popcorn flick.
@ Sharpless
Never said people couldn't like all of them. I personally enjoy nearly every editor on the site. Also, I'm not saying that fun and respectable can't coexist, since I cite Shadow of the Colossus as a marriage of good gameplay and deeper artistic value. I was just presenting the idea that some artistic games might be worthwhile and yet not have fun gameplay.
Never said people couldn't like all of them. I personally enjoy nearly every editor on the site. Also, I'm not saying that fun and respectable can't coexist, since I cite Shadow of the Colossus as a marriage of good gameplay and deeper artistic value. I was just presenting the idea that some artistic games might be worthwhile and yet not have fun gameplay.
Sorry, I didn't mean for it to appear that I was claiming that you said people couldn't like them all. I was just in debate mode and didn't feel like phrasing it better. :)
Also, if a game is worthwhile then it is, by definition, also fun. I think people tend to think of "fun" much too narrowly. I'm not sure what you mean about a lack of fun gameplay, though... can you name some examples of worthwhile games without fun gameplay? Personally, I'm not even sure that's possible.
Also, if a game is worthwhile then it is, by definition, also fun. I think people tend to think of "fun" much too narrowly. I'm not sure what you mean about a lack of fun gameplay, though... can you name some examples of worthwhile games without fun gameplay? Personally, I'm not even sure that's possible.
If you're still reading this Sharpless (I know it's off of the front page of the cblogs), I cite Silent Hill as an example of a worthwhile game with a deficient of fun gameplay. I have much more fun with Resident Evil, even though it's not as artistic a game, but Silent Hill's actual gameplay is pretty boring, as I see it. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear enough in my write-up, but I was attempting to use Silent Hill as an answer to questions like yours.
I'm very ADD, so I kind of skimmed the post. *embarrassment* :) Anyway, I still have a hard time understanding the gameplay/worthwhile argument. I'm not a fan of horror games, so your example is foreign to me. I don't think I've experienced a game that is "worthwhile" (what does that mean in this context, now that I think about it?) and yet utterly fails at gameplay. I mean, every game has SOME gameplay shortcomings, but if it is an utter disaster in that area, then I don't think I could consider it worthwhile. Hmm. I'll keep my eye out for such games.
Heh, no need for apologies, it was pretty lengthy.
By worthwhile, I mean that the other parts are skillfully crafted enough, usually in a deeper way than normal games (a.k.a. "art games"), to merit a play of the game, despite the weakness of the gameplay itself, which is normally the reason to play games. Silent Hill's gameplay is simple, stiff, and boring, and level progression often consists of checking 20 locked doors before you find an unlocked one to continue through. However, the production and intended atmosphere of the game are deep enough to warrant my attention. There's a lot more going on beneath the surface, and it's quite psychological, and somehow I can overlook the poor gameplay.
Another example, this one slightly less good: .hack is a repetitive action-RPG with party AI you must micromanage and dated graphics. However, the premise is wildly creative, the game captures the spirit of interaction in MMO games perfectly, and the whole meta-ness of .hack, combined with an almost viral-campaign-like focus which rewards consuming the non-game components of the franchise, merits a playthrough in my book. I say this example is less good than the Silent Hill example because the game places too much focus on the repetitive gamplay and not enough on the brilliant concept the game is founded on.
I hope that clarifies what I mean by a game with poor gameplay that is still worthwhile.
By worthwhile, I mean that the other parts are skillfully crafted enough, usually in a deeper way than normal games (a.k.a. "art games"), to merit a play of the game, despite the weakness of the gameplay itself, which is normally the reason to play games. Silent Hill's gameplay is simple, stiff, and boring, and level progression often consists of checking 20 locked doors before you find an unlocked one to continue through. However, the production and intended atmosphere of the game are deep enough to warrant my attention. There's a lot more going on beneath the surface, and it's quite psychological, and somehow I can overlook the poor gameplay.
Another example, this one slightly less good: .hack is a repetitive action-RPG with party AI you must micromanage and dated graphics. However, the premise is wildly creative, the game captures the spirit of interaction in MMO games perfectly, and the whole meta-ness of .hack, combined with an almost viral-campaign-like focus which rewards consuming the non-game components of the franchise, merits a playthrough in my book. I say this example is less good than the Silent Hill example because the game places too much focus on the repetitive gamplay and not enough on the brilliant concept the game is founded on.
I hope that clarifies what I mean by a game with poor gameplay that is still worthwhile.
Heh, no need for apologies, it was pretty lengthy.
By worthwhile, I mean that the other parts are skillfully crafted enough, usually in a deeper way than normal games (a.k.a. "art games"), to merit a play of the game, despite the weakness of the gameplay itself, which is normally the reason to play games. Silent Hill's gameplay is simple, stiff, and boring, and level progression often consists of checking 20 locked doors before you find an unlocked one to continue through. However, the production and intended atmosphere of the game are deep enough to warrant my attention. There's a lot more going on beneath the surface, and it's quite psychological, and somehow I can overlook the poor gameplay.
Another example, this one slightly less good: .hack is a repetitive action-RPG with party AI you must micromanage and dated graphics. However, the premise is wildly creative, the game captures the spirit of interaction in MMO games perfectly, and the whole meta-ness of .hack, combined with an almost viral-campaign-like focus which rewards consuming the non-game components of the franchise, merits a playthrough in my book. I say this example is less good than the Silent Hill example because the game places too much focus on the repetitive gamplay and not enough on the brilliant concept the game is founded on.
I hope that clarifies what I mean by a game with poor gameplay that is still worthwhile.
By worthwhile, I mean that the other parts are skillfully crafted enough, usually in a deeper way than normal games (a.k.a. "art games"), to merit a play of the game, despite the weakness of the gameplay itself, which is normally the reason to play games. Silent Hill's gameplay is simple, stiff, and boring, and level progression often consists of checking 20 locked doors before you find an unlocked one to continue through. However, the production and intended atmosphere of the game are deep enough to warrant my attention. There's a lot more going on beneath the surface, and it's quite psychological, and somehow I can overlook the poor gameplay.
Another example, this one slightly less good: .hack is a repetitive action-RPG with party AI you must micromanage and dated graphics. However, the premise is wildly creative, the game captures the spirit of interaction in MMO games perfectly, and the whole meta-ness of .hack, combined with an almost viral-campaign-like focus which rewards consuming the non-game components of the franchise, merits a playthrough in my book. I say this example is less good than the Silent Hill example because the game places too much focus on the repetitive gamplay and not enough on the brilliant concept the game is founded on.
I hope that clarifies what I mean by a game with poor gameplay that is still worthwhile.
Okay, I get you. I think we simply have to disagree here, then. To me, a game is not worthwhile if any one major component is largely messed up. Also, I'm a gameplay whore. I can play a game with good gameplay but crappy everything else, but I can't tolerate a game that looks and sounds great but plays like total crap. I won't say that absolutely, but that seems to be the way I generally feel.
If Shadow of the Colossus had terrible gameplay, it would be a failure to me, even with the design and story and artistry. Sure, I would definitely give it props for what it did right, but I wouldn't say that such a game would be worthwhile for more than a brief look at what it does right. But hey, that opinion is subject to change. Who knows?
If Shadow of the Colossus had terrible gameplay, it would be a failure to me, even with the design and story and artistry. Sure, I would definitely give it props for what it did right, but I wouldn't say that such a game would be worthwhile for more than a brief look at what it does right. But hey, that opinion is subject to change. Who knows?

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