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You realize that Final Fantasy VI, your gold standard, had a lot of the same staff as Final Fantasy VII, right? That the grand cast in Final Fantasy VI was created by the same team that brought us Final Fantasy VII?
Don't kid yourself. Final Fantasy V was the last "old-school" Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy VI was firmly in the "new-school" design you're pissing and moaning about. And the cast, for the most part, INCREASED after the new team took development.
In chronological order...
FF1: Four main characters,
FF2: Three main characters, one spot for guests
FF3: Four main characters
FF4: Twelve characters, of which fully half (Tellah, Palom, Porom, Edward, Yang, and FuSoYa) only spend relatively brief spans of time in the party
FF5: Five main characters
FF6: Fourteen main characters, of which only three are not plot vital (Mog, Umaro, and Gogo)
FF7: Nine main characters, eight of whom remain relevant and in-party throughout the game
FF8: Ten (or Eleven, if you count Edea) main characters, all of whom remain relevant throughout the game
FF9: Eight main characters, all of whom remain relevant and in-party throughout the game
FF10: Seven main characters, all of whom remain relevant and in-party throughout the game
FF12: Six main characters, all of whom remain relevant and in-party throughout the game
FF13: Six main characters, all of whom remain relevant and in-party throughout the game
It's funny that you admit that you don't know where this is going, because clearly you have no idea what you want. It's clear that you're making a statement just to generate anger.
Aerith? Yeah, we knew who she was. Aside from being the non-big-titted chick before she died, she was also the one who consistently made fun of Cloud and stuck out as a counterpart to Tifa. The two are designed to be Yin/Yang, with Tifa quietly submitting to Cloud's statements even while Aerith challenges him. The two are brilliant, especially when you realize that Tifa doesn't really begin to grow as a person until she (consciously or not) starts to emulate Aerith in certain ways.
So basically, your argument boils down to "I don't like Final Fantasy these days because it doesn't match up to my fan-wanked ideal!"
That's fine, but it's patently obvious you really don't know what you're talking about.
Don't kid yourself. Final Fantasy V was the last "old-school" Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy VI was firmly in the "new-school" design you're pissing and moaning about. And the cast, for the most part, INCREASED after the new team took development.
In chronological order...
FF1: Four main characters,
FF2: Three main characters, one spot for guests
FF3: Four main characters
FF4: Twelve characters, of which fully half (Tellah, Palom, Porom, Edward, Yang, and FuSoYa) only spend relatively brief spans of time in the party
FF5: Five main characters
FF6: Fourteen main characters, of which only three are not plot vital (Mog, Umaro, and Gogo)
FF7: Nine main characters, eight of whom remain relevant and in-party throughout the game
FF8: Ten (or Eleven, if you count Edea) main characters, all of whom remain relevant throughout the game
FF9: Eight main characters, all of whom remain relevant and in-party throughout the game
FF10: Seven main characters, all of whom remain relevant and in-party throughout the game
FF12: Six main characters, all of whom remain relevant and in-party throughout the game
FF13: Six main characters, all of whom remain relevant and in-party throughout the game
It's funny that you admit that you don't know where this is going, because clearly you have no idea what you want. It's clear that you're making a statement just to generate anger.
Aerith? Yeah, we knew who she was. Aside from being the non-big-titted chick before she died, she was also the one who consistently made fun of Cloud and stuck out as a counterpart to Tifa. The two are designed to be Yin/Yang, with Tifa quietly submitting to Cloud's statements even while Aerith challenges him. The two are brilliant, especially when you realize that Tifa doesn't really begin to grow as a person until she (consciously or not) starts to emulate Aerith in certain ways.
So basically, your argument boils down to "I don't like Final Fantasy these days because it doesn't match up to my fan-wanked ideal!"
That's fine, but it's patently obvious you really don't know what you're talking about.
@meteorscrap
I admitted to not knowing much about FF post-VI, and I also admit to having my vision tinted by the rose-coloured shades of nostalgia (seeing as I can't really go back to any of these games, anyway.) Which is why I mostly made comments about the character design and heresay (which I labelled!) in VII. You can't call me out on not knowing much about it when I say it right in the post.
I also know that they basically had all the same people doing the writing and character design up to IX, after which there was some shit thrown into the main series and it starts becoming critically panned.
And judging from your in-depth comments on FFVII (and your lack of knowledge of FFVI as it compares to FFV, both games being similar despite the lack of classes in VI), I'm guessing you're mad that I have not and will not play your precious wank material over the shitty precedent it set for what was once a decent RPG experience.
I admitted to not knowing much about FF post-VI, and I also admit to having my vision tinted by the rose-coloured shades of nostalgia (seeing as I can't really go back to any of these games, anyway.) Which is why I mostly made comments about the character design and heresay (which I labelled!) in VII. You can't call me out on not knowing much about it when I say it right in the post.
I also know that they basically had all the same people doing the writing and character design up to IX, after which there was some shit thrown into the main series and it starts becoming critically panned.
And judging from your in-depth comments on FFVII (and your lack of knowledge of FFVI as it compares to FFV, both games being similar despite the lack of classes in VI), I'm guessing you're mad that I have not and will not play your precious wank material over the shitty precedent it set for what was once a decent RPG experience.
And furthermore, it's not the "new school design" I'm bitching about so much as a lack of design sense that is now making the series difficult to distinguish from the other mud in the market.
"It is my theory that shit hit the fan after Final Fantasy VIII, when every male lead had sort of a Squall/Cloud thing going on, and the characters' faces didn't seem so much different from each other."
Honestly, Squall and Cloud were the last FF protagonists I actually liked, besides Lightening, who I liked immensely. And back in the day, the Cloud/Squall character wasn't the whining emo caricature we've come to associate with them. It was more of a, here's what we need to do, let's just go do it and deal with what happens. It's been the shift towards overly plucky slash overly dramatic characters that's upstaged the story and gameplay to my mind in recent iterations.
Honestly, Squall and Cloud were the last FF protagonists I actually liked, besides Lightening, who I liked immensely. And back in the day, the Cloud/Squall character wasn't the whining emo caricature we've come to associate with them. It was more of a, here's what we need to do, let's just go do it and deal with what happens. It's been the shift towards overly plucky slash overly dramatic characters that's upstaged the story and gameplay to my mind in recent iterations.
BWahahaha!
Oh, lord, get over yourself.
No, Final Fantasy V marked the departure of a lot of key staff of the series. That's why I marked Final Fantasy VI as the start of an era. Because it was. It was the point where Hironobu Sakaguchi stopped directing the series (after directing it from Final Fantasy II to V). That aside, I could write essays about the differences between Final Fantasy V and VI. In tone, in design, and in basic story, they are as different as night and day.
Now, I'm not calling you out about saying you don't know much. I'm calling you out for making broad statements as a whole about the series when you've admitted that you know the square route of jack and shit about the series.
Opinions, we all have them.
I've actually played the games you've labelled as "wank material", while you've basically admitted that you have not. That means I'm more qualified to talk about them than you, and basically you're just talking shit for the sake of attention.
This shit wouldn't last two seconds in a debate on literature, and I won't allow it here. If you haven't experienced the works you're deriding, you're a fucking moron and you shouldn't even try to debate this shit. You're basing your impressions on your shallow perception of the material instead of an in-depth knowledge, and somehow you feel superior for your ignorance?
Fuck off. You're not worth proving wrong. I'm content to know you are.
Oh, lord, get over yourself.
No, Final Fantasy V marked the departure of a lot of key staff of the series. That's why I marked Final Fantasy VI as the start of an era. Because it was. It was the point where Hironobu Sakaguchi stopped directing the series (after directing it from Final Fantasy II to V). That aside, I could write essays about the differences between Final Fantasy V and VI. In tone, in design, and in basic story, they are as different as night and day.
Now, I'm not calling you out about saying you don't know much. I'm calling you out for making broad statements as a whole about the series when you've admitted that you know the square route of jack and shit about the series.
Opinions, we all have them.
I've actually played the games you've labelled as "wank material", while you've basically admitted that you have not. That means I'm more qualified to talk about them than you, and basically you're just talking shit for the sake of attention.
This shit wouldn't last two seconds in a debate on literature, and I won't allow it here. If you haven't experienced the works you're deriding, you're a fucking moron and you shouldn't even try to debate this shit. You're basing your impressions on your shallow perception of the material instead of an in-depth knowledge, and somehow you feel superior for your ignorance?
Fuck off. You're not worth proving wrong. I'm content to know you are.
@E C Gach:
I actually like Squall, too (seeing as FFVIII was actually the last game I played before jumping ship). And yes, you do have a point. The shift towards more exaggerated archetypes hurt the narrative a lot. And in a big way.
@meteorscrap
You wouldn't last in a literary debate either, seeing as I was mostly talking about the character and world design and you're giving me all this shit about topics I never even mentioned. What is there to prove wrong? That the design of the world and characters in the main series HASN'T deteriorated since the advent of 3D and the notion that the games should have overwrought design philosophies to go with it?
I didn't even go into any specific details about the games beyond the graphic design and a few laments about what the characters have become.
It's true what they say, mentioning Final Fantasy in any detracting way is like inviting flames. You know what? I don't even like the series that much, except for Tactics. Turn based fighting is boring as fuck and you don't really play a role in these games (past the first game, in which you created your characters) so much as fill one. Want to enlighten me with your oh-so-important opinion on that?
I actually like Squall, too (seeing as FFVIII was actually the last game I played before jumping ship). And yes, you do have a point. The shift towards more exaggerated archetypes hurt the narrative a lot. And in a big way.
@meteorscrap
You wouldn't last in a literary debate either, seeing as I was mostly talking about the character and world design and you're giving me all this shit about topics I never even mentioned. What is there to prove wrong? That the design of the world and characters in the main series HASN'T deteriorated since the advent of 3D and the notion that the games should have overwrought design philosophies to go with it?
I didn't even go into any specific details about the games beyond the graphic design and a few laments about what the characters have become.
It's true what they say, mentioning Final Fantasy in any detracting way is like inviting flames. You know what? I don't even like the series that much, except for Tactics. Turn based fighting is boring as fuck and you don't really play a role in these games (past the first game, in which you created your characters) so much as fill one. Want to enlighten me with your oh-so-important opinion on that?
Actually, you haven't presented an argument at all. You've presented a half-baked, half-formulated rant lashing out blindly at someone who called you on the mile-wide holes in your presentation. Basically you've lashed out for attention, but I'm smart enough to actually pick holes in your logic instead of just screaming about how you've disrespected the series.
Whatever you title your "arguments" with, it doesn't change the fact that the sentences which follow offer no concise discussion about either the character designs or the personalities. The closest you get to attempting to make a coherent point is attacking Aerith and her death as a plot point, something I did address.
No, the series has no stagnated or degenerated. In a debate of any kind, you typically don't just say "I'm right because of reasons!" but you actually take the time to draw comparisons from the material you deride (in this case, games you actually haven't fucking played) and the materials you hold up to your gold standard. You've basically said "Final Fantasy has gone downhill, PROVE ME WRONG!"
It'd be easy. Tidus' character arc in Final Fantasy X alone proves that the series is willing to take chances. It throws an optimistic protagonist you could've ripped straight from Shonen Jump into a thoroughly pessimistic world, and actually demands sacrifice from him. Final Fantasy IX deconstructs the basic things we've come to accept from Final Fantasy games (i.e. Chocobos, Black Mages, even the concept of chosen heroes), Final Fantasy VIII takes a harsh look at the concept of summons and exactly how summoning god-like beings could effect a person, and Final Fantasy VII is basically an expansion of Tata's story in Chrono Trigger (specifically the ending where he storms Magus' castle himself), stretched into a full game in media res, with us not realising that Cloud is a fake, a phony, until well after the point where he's proven he's not.
But the same could be said for ALL Final Fantasy games. Final Fantasy VI explored the themes of personal loss versus the good of all, Final Fantasy V was a (admittedly comedic) take on just what the multi-dimensional heroes of the world could take (with an ending sequence capable of reflecting your decisions in the final battle), and even as early as Final Fantasy IV the series has dug deep into subverting and muddying the waters of the basic good vs. evil plotline by putting you in the shoes of a man who (albeit unwittingly) invades one village to take their treasure before being duped into loosing explosive magic on another.
As far as your "arguments" are concerned, they're as shallow as a puddle and twice as transparent. You're an idiot looking to stir up controversy. At this point, I've basically addressed any point you could have possibly been hinting towards. But essentially you're saying I'm wrong for addressing the works you're attacking as a whole because I bring up more than the two topics you mentioned, despite the fact you have no idea what you're talking about. (Which you've admitted)
Whatever you title your "arguments" with, it doesn't change the fact that the sentences which follow offer no concise discussion about either the character designs or the personalities. The closest you get to attempting to make a coherent point is attacking Aerith and her death as a plot point, something I did address.
No, the series has no stagnated or degenerated. In a debate of any kind, you typically don't just say "I'm right because of reasons!" but you actually take the time to draw comparisons from the material you deride (in this case, games you actually haven't fucking played) and the materials you hold up to your gold standard. You've basically said "Final Fantasy has gone downhill, PROVE ME WRONG!"
It'd be easy. Tidus' character arc in Final Fantasy X alone proves that the series is willing to take chances. It throws an optimistic protagonist you could've ripped straight from Shonen Jump into a thoroughly pessimistic world, and actually demands sacrifice from him. Final Fantasy IX deconstructs the basic things we've come to accept from Final Fantasy games (i.e. Chocobos, Black Mages, even the concept of chosen heroes), Final Fantasy VIII takes a harsh look at the concept of summons and exactly how summoning god-like beings could effect a person, and Final Fantasy VII is basically an expansion of Tata's story in Chrono Trigger (specifically the ending where he storms Magus' castle himself), stretched into a full game in media res, with us not realising that Cloud is a fake, a phony, until well after the point where he's proven he's not.
But the same could be said for ALL Final Fantasy games. Final Fantasy VI explored the themes of personal loss versus the good of all, Final Fantasy V was a (admittedly comedic) take on just what the multi-dimensional heroes of the world could take (with an ending sequence capable of reflecting your decisions in the final battle), and even as early as Final Fantasy IV the series has dug deep into subverting and muddying the waters of the basic good vs. evil plotline by putting you in the shoes of a man who (albeit unwittingly) invades one village to take their treasure before being duped into loosing explosive magic on another.
As far as your "arguments" are concerned, they're as shallow as a puddle and twice as transparent. You're an idiot looking to stir up controversy. At this point, I've basically addressed any point you could have possibly been hinting towards. But essentially you're saying I'm wrong for addressing the works you're attacking as a whole because I bring up more than the two topics you mentioned, despite the fact you have no idea what you're talking about. (Which you've admitted)
@meteorscrap
It's clear you're upset that I won't play and suck the cock of the brilliance that is this series' new forays into suckitude, and you may kindly leave now.
Unless you want to leave more flames about things I never even brought up, then post as many rage-filled fanwank posts as your little heart desires. You can tell me all this shit about the narrative that you want (which I never even mentioned, despite having played FFVIII and finding it to be well-written) and sing the praises of the series, but that doesn't make any bit of difference, because Square is tripping over itself trying to outdo previous milestones. And I noticed you left out 12 and 13, real
And no, I'm not trying to argue, because I have nothing to base an argument on except the shit I've seen, which is the progressively crappier art direction... which you haven't brought up or challenged. And no, I never said "THE SERIES HAS GONE DOWNHILL, PROVE ME WRONG!"; I said "I think the art direction is getting sloppy", briefly mentioned some hearsay about the characters from a game people like to pick on, and invited polite discussion (or fanwank).
I can't say I'm not enjoying it or feeling a little trollish, though. Watching you trip over yourself as you try to materialise an argument out of a brief observation is quite comical! :D
It's clear you're upset that I won't play and suck the cock of the brilliance that is this series' new forays into suckitude, and you may kindly leave now.
Unless you want to leave more flames about things I never even brought up, then post as many rage-filled fanwank posts as your little heart desires. You can tell me all this shit about the narrative that you want (which I never even mentioned, despite having played FFVIII and finding it to be well-written) and sing the praises of the series, but that doesn't make any bit of difference, because Square is tripping over itself trying to outdo previous milestones. And I noticed you left out 12 and 13, real
And no, I'm not trying to argue, because I have nothing to base an argument on except the shit I've seen, which is the progressively crappier art direction... which you haven't brought up or challenged. And no, I never said "THE SERIES HAS GONE DOWNHILL, PROVE ME WRONG!"; I said "I think the art direction is getting sloppy", briefly mentioned some hearsay about the characters from a game people like to pick on, and invited polite discussion (or fanwank).
I can't say I'm not enjoying it or feeling a little trollish, though. Watching you trip over yourself as you try to materialise an argument out of a brief observation is quite comical! :D
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles is the best Final Fantasy game I've played. Well I'm still trudging along through IX but it's getting to be a little long-winded. This series really isn't for me....unless they do more multiplayer CC action that I love.
"I didn't even go into any specific details about the games beyond the graphic design and a few laments about what the characters have become."
Pretty much.
lol at meteorscrap. This was primarily about the aesthetics of character design - things that can be judged WITHOUT EVEN PLAYING THE GAMES - and this guy goes off on about 5 or 6 tangents about story, design, FF V, "tone" lol etc. while simultaneously showing needless hostility. In short, he's completely wasted his, and our, time with his insufferable WHINING while still managing to ignore the topic at hand. One wonders if he's finished basic reading comprehension classes.
Anyway, yeah - the new aesthetics and character designs that Squenix uses are fairly terrible. Stupid anime haircuts, convoluted costume designs, annoying emo teenagers, Vanille lol, etc. There's some exceptions - the Crystal Chronicles characters are "charming" as are the characters from a few of the other new games - but, in general, it's been
Also, yo, real talk, Enix > Square.
Pretty much.
lol at meteorscrap. This was primarily about the aesthetics of character design - things that can be judged WITHOUT EVEN PLAYING THE GAMES - and this guy goes off on about 5 or 6 tangents about story, design, FF V, "tone" lol etc. while simultaneously showing needless hostility. In short, he's completely wasted his, and our, time with his insufferable WHINING while still managing to ignore the topic at hand. One wonders if he's finished basic reading comprehension classes.
Anyway, yeah - the new aesthetics and character designs that Squenix uses are fairly terrible. Stupid anime haircuts, convoluted costume designs, annoying emo teenagers, Vanille lol, etc. There's some exceptions - the Crystal Chronicles characters are "charming" as are the characters from a few of the other new games - but, in general, it's been
Also, yo, real talk, Enix > Square.
@Playhangman:
I totally forgot about CC until you guys brought it up.
The design of those games was incredibly cute and inviting, as well! They suckered me into playing them, despite the DS offerings being depressingly bland and the Gamecube game requiring friends (which I did not have.)
And how could we forget Enix? Dragon Quest, anyone? Grandia? FUCKING ACTRAISER?
I totally forgot about CC until you guys brought it up.
The design of those games was incredibly cute and inviting, as well! They suckered me into playing them, despite the DS offerings being depressingly bland and the Gamecube game requiring friends (which I did not have.)
And how could we forget Enix? Dragon Quest, anyone? Grandia? FUCKING ACTRAISER?
Hey Mikhail - welcome to the cblogs, post an intro about yourself so we can find out more about you. :]
As for the topic at hand, I generally agree with what you're saying, although I'm not much of a Square Enix/FF player. I did enjoy their older games for the same reasons you mentioned - the interesting characters and stories...eventually it all kind of melded together for me though.
As for the topic at hand, I generally agree with what you're saying, although I'm not much of a Square Enix/FF player. I did enjoy their older games for the same reasons you mentioned - the interesting characters and stories...eventually it all kind of melded together for me though.
"In FFVII, Aeris dies. Boo hoo. Nobody would have even remembered her if she hadn't, according to sources." -- They killed off a main character, Clouds love interest, something that's rarely done in anything, ever, and you use it as a criticism? good one.
"I admitted to not knowing much about FF post-VI" -- you didn't bring up anything squeenix has done that isn't FF related, and yet you judge them purely on things you don't know. I just... I just!...
"I admitted to not knowing much about FF post-VI" -- you didn't bring up anything squeenix has done that isn't FF related, and yet you judge them purely on things you don't know. I just... I just!...
@Zephyrgamgee
I think you should read the article again before claiming that I judged Square Enix on things I "purely don't know". That last part was kind of trolling, though, so I guess it's my bad... except it was still kind of dumb and I truly don't believe anyone would have remembered Aeris as well if she hadn't died, since she was kind of flat from what I hear, anyway.
@Caiters
Not too much of a Square fan, myself actually. Chunsoft and NIS had much better to offer in the way of Japanese RPGs (what with Akira Toriyama's brilliant artwork livening up an already lively and colourful world in the Dragon Quest games and NIS consistently bringing us cuteness and wonderfully replayable games.) I want to do an article praising Nippon Ichi's design sense, but then it would label me as a clear fan of the cute and squeezable.
I think you should read the article again before claiming that I judged Square Enix on things I "purely don't know". That last part was kind of trolling, though, so I guess it's my bad... except it was still kind of dumb and I truly don't believe anyone would have remembered Aeris as well if she hadn't died, since she was kind of flat from what I hear, anyway.
@Caiters
Not too much of a Square fan, myself actually. Chunsoft and NIS had much better to offer in the way of Japanese RPGs (what with Akira Toriyama's brilliant artwork livening up an already lively and colourful world in the Dragon Quest games and NIS consistently bringing us cuteness and wonderfully replayable games.) I want to do an article praising Nippon Ichi's design sense, but then it would label me as a clear fan of the cute and squeezable.
