It is a rare occurrence when I read a civil, informing discussion in the comments following racial issue on a gaming blog, our own Dtoid sadly unexcepted. Other issues may be enlightening, but not usually if the topic is about race (numbers of comments and traffic being a poor proxy for quality).
At the same time, nobody considers themselves to be racist. Each person considers himself (Note -- racial topics : women :: garlic : vampires) to be "fair" regarding race.
Given this, as someone who considers himself moderate, I see a lot of disturbing comments on gaming sites. This can perhaps be attributed to three common demographic factors, that is (1) young (2) white (3) males, coupled with the fact that blog commenters tend to post in the hopes that someone will listen and react.
Is there something else at work, though? Maybe many gamers represent an emerging demographic who have embraced the secular anti-political stance of modern liberalism yet who reject the social aspects of the movement (minority awareness, "tolerance", affirmative action, welfare, etc.). Or maybe I'm just being oversensitive.
Well, I'm sure that there are at least some people who play games and are racists, maybe even a lot of them, but unless there is something inherently racist about playing games then labeling the entire subculture of gamers as racists is inaccurate. It may simply be the case that there are racists who play games, in much the same way that there are violent people who play games but it doesn't mean that gamers are inherently violent.
When you've got a blog that has a commenter called coonskin05 and nobody questions him about his name or says that's a bit messed up, you know your blog is infested with racists.
What's racist about my name? The town I grew up in is called Frisco, TX, and their mascot was the Frisco Coons. When I was younger I made my AIM sn a spinoff of our mascot, which tons of kids did when they were younger. That name then moved on to XBL, which then moved on to here.
I think if anyone around here was actually being discriminated against, people would step up pretty damn quick to defend the victim.
I think around here people are [/i]unracist[/i] enough to be able to make these jokes, knowing that they aren't going to offend each other, and it's in good fun. (insert statement about perpetuating stereotypes)
On gamers as a whole: No I dont think we're any more racist than another group. We're probably more accepting than a lot of people. But the INTERNET is ANONYMOUS and people on the internet feel at ease to say whatever bullshit they please to whoever they please, so all the shit actual racist people are afraid to say in public comes out online.
Some black people act like Nigge-rs, and some don't. The same goes for each race. There are bad people and there are good people. Im sorry to say, but statistics show the black community has way more N-words than nice people.
@Mantra: I don't think there is anything inherently racist about gaming, just that there seems to be an inexplicably high concentration among gamers.
@JACK of No Trades: Don't you go making fun of my good friend Honkey Joe!
@atheistium: Ummm... OK. I think you really shocked people there, maybe even BLOWING THEIR MINDS. Or maybe it's a joke?
Haha I understand where your coming from JonT, but nigge-rs wasn't a term to describe specific group of black people, it was just meant for all black people.
I knew you were from the Dallas area, but didn't know where.
Yeah, Frisco only just recently changed their high school mascot out of pressure from the majority white community fearing non-existent problems from some unknown non-protesting group of blacks.
There seems to be a pervasive theory that if everyone just ignores everything about race, things will somehow heal. At the risk of offending people who hold this view, really simple solutions to extremely complex, deep-rooted problems usually don't work as well as one might think. Otherwise people would have, y'know, done them and the problem would be solved.
Anyway, off-topic by me. The fact that people feel free to make racist comments (litmus test: would you make the same comment in front of a group of diverse strangers?) here and elsewhere implies to me that such commenters expect to be supported, or at least not shunned, by the community. It's a different situation than a purely anonymous post because we've invested time and energy into our usernames, and won't lightly give it up.
I'm going to talk from my perspective because I don't like generalising about other people.
I don't like racists, but I also don't like anti-racists - they tend to be as inflamitry as the racists. Of course, I love the fireworks display between the two groups, but I don't like it when it spills out into the audience. Because the whole issue is just dead to me. It's been like 100 years now since that shit, society as a whole should have moved on. The only thing that is going to define a difference from one racial culture to the next is continuing the idea that there's a difference, and anyone who contributes to that, with it be pro or anti, is making the whole thing worse. The fact is that your personality is formed from the way you are raised, so anything you do is the responsibility of the people who raised you. Now, don't think I'm ignorant to the role of genes, because they do definately have an effect, but not the extent where they are tied in with the colour of your skin, or the colour of your hair and so on.
As such, I will continue to make fun of the whole issue, because I think it is so ridiculous that it should be completely demonised to the point where anyone who seriously makes the distinction is outcast, like you would a Nazi or a psychic or the Irish.
@coonskin05: Maybe the white residents were worried that people would unfairly perceive the town as a stereotypically hick, racist Texas backwater. For comparison, see the former Pekin High School Chinks of Pekin, IL ("Go Chinks!"??). It wasn't the large Chinese population that protested.
@ Max: I knew that probably wasn't what you were asking, I was just trying to point out that the question suggested more than what you may have intended.
I don't think that there really is a higher concentration of racists among gamers than other social groups. While there is certainly a higher percentage of upper-middle class white males in the gaming community, I have found that, as a kind of counter-culture ourselves, we tend to be more tolerant of minority social groups. As far as why there are so many racist remarks made by gamers on the Internet, the same question can be asked of homophobic remarks as well. Certainly, if all you looked at were Halo 2 online players you might think that most gamers were homophobic, but just look at the support from the gaming community when GayGamer.net was DoS'd by homophobic hackers. Gamers generally like to joke and be ironic, and gamers on the Internet in particular really lend credence to John Gabriel's Greater Internet Dickwad Theory. There is a huge difference though between supporting someone's racial slur and lolling at it.
Um okay. I just posted something but it ain't here. Weird.
Anyway, I'm surprised by how not racist most people here seem to be. The irony though is that in the same breath that half the people on the site would chastise someone for calling a person an "N-word" they wouldn't hesitate to call someone a F4G. Double standard, thy name is the internet.
Really? Frisco? It's a growing city, and getting more covered in the metroplex area, so maybe that's why they changed it. Also, they're starting to get big in the soccer world(FC Dallas, FTW!) so maybe they wanted to nip it in the bud before anyone from out of town heard about it and got offended.
On the main topic, I don't think anyone(well, most anyone) on this site is racist, I think that when they make comments such as the ones on the last few days controversial posts, they're trying to get a rise out of other members who may not have a "black" sense of humor. And no, I didn't mean that as a pun.
Max, I've been wondering the same thing for the last few days due to the abnormal postings of race relations on the site.
Also, I ought to point out that no, I wouldn't make similar comments in front of total strangers, but that's because people are idiots. I've found the majority of the destructoid community to be generally un-stupid.
I think you just have to put it into perspective. 100 years ago, black people were slaves and the British Empire was just about to decide that I should probably hold back on the whole "conquering the world" thing. People were sold and killed, native Americans got the shit torn out of their homes, it wasn't particularly "understanding".
Now, we have rich culture, human rights, a culture that is growing and learning from it's mistakes... yeah there are still going to be some hardcore racists and yeah there are going to be some people who are intimidated by the whole issue enough to become mildly racist. There's a lot of people with difficult lives that are just victims of circumstance, and there's also probably a bit of indignance on both "sides" when you factor in responsibility, rights, fears, dreams and all that. But ultimately, it's not really that bad - we're getting there, it'll just take time.
Incidentally, I thought your post was quite good, quite reasoned and interesting. Ignore the twats like Angels Don't Burn who call you retarded. I think you're wrong, but artfully, intelligently wrong, and that's better than just "lol racism wut".
& MaxVest I wholeheartedly agree, even on editors posts the n word comes up, I know it's in good fun, but it's unnecessary I didn't come here to be degraded lol
and I fail. Thanks for beating me to the punch Mantra.
Still though I think it's weird that people can consider themselves supportive to the situation of other people (like those who came out in support of GayGamer) but still throw around slurs that exist simply to hurt those same people they just spoke in support of. But I guess most of that comes from people not thinking about how people interpret what they say and to some degree we are all occasionally guilty of that.
@UglyPhil: I agree with many of your points, and I don't necessarily believe that gamers are somehow ultra-racist.
However, as a community we are pretty quick to shut down other types of shit-disturbers. For example, the gaygamer.net DOS incident was handled rather tastefully, by internet standards. I just haven't seen the same when it comes to racial matters. It also seems odd that some of the commenters who criticize minorities for refusing to let racial scars heal emphatically repeat this criticism at every opportunity, rather than just... letting racial scars heal.
Also, I choose to believe that AngelsDontBurn was replying to my title question. Optimistic? Perhaps.
I'm a gamer + I'm not racist = not all gamers are racist. I think most of the kids here on Dtoid are trying to make jokes, but end up actually sounding really racist.
Maybe not racist, but lacking any connection to the social awareness, like you said. I think that's the primary "thing". Not an issue, or a major negative. Just a facet of not generally having to or choosing to deal with the concept of actually being a social miniority.
Also, the sftuajpg mentality is in there somewhere.
Well we live in a society where being pushing the envelope is considered humourous, so things such as saying that Mexicans aren't people is funny because it's offensive.
It doesn't necessarily mean that the person really feels that way, they are often just looking for shock value.
coonskin05 I figured, because when you first came on dtoid i was watchful but then you seemed like a really sound guy so I figured your username wasn't racial at all
@MaxVest;
You're obviously an intelligent person, and I admire you for saying what you think so eloquently. I don't think that it's at "every opportunity"... I think it's very simple. If someone comes on here and in all seriousness says "I was offended by a joke that someone made on here, so you all must be racists", without really seeing the irony in that, then I think the response is probably, on average, going to be a critical one.
I also think there's a difference between healing scars and venting your insecurities at a large group of (more or less) innocenct users. You don't need to excorsize your demons by attacking random people, you do it through debate or persuation or understanding, or at the least, you just come to accept it.
Also, when it comes down to it, I don't think we're living in a world where people really cater to other peoples feelings. On the internet anyway - at the very least, here, the place of un-apolagetic offensiveness. If that were the case then we'd all be piling our sympathy onto emo people. Like I keep saying, the Internet is a harsh place. It's unforgiving and cold, and you can't expect to be loved wherever you go. You're gonna get criticised and part of what makes you a strong person is to learn to irnore it or at best learn from it.
I do see what you're saying, and to a certain extent I think it would be nice if there was a warmer, more considerate understanding, while still having that entertaining jokey aspect. Y'know, to be able to stand back from the joking podium and say "yeah, I understand what you're saying but we're only having a joke here, so chill out". But it's not going to happen.
Also, I mostly agree with Mantra. Very well put. :)
They're trying to get a reaction, and know that racist terms are the most emotionally charged. I honestly think for the most part it has little to do about race.
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about me
It's only a model...
Uncommon, some wear on the edges.
First game: TI Invaders (Space Invaders knock-off) for the TI-99 "home computer". Either that or the Pac-Man built into the glass-top tables at Mr. Gatti's Pizza.
First console: NES
First world-altering game secret: JUSTIN BAILEY
First Arcade: Aladdin's Palace
First "mature" game: Leisure Suit Larry
First PC: 386SX 16 mHz w/40 MB HDD, Win 3.0, & 640x480 VGA baby!
First FPS: Wolfenstein 3D
First game mastered: Street Fighter II Turbo - Hyper Fighting (SNES)
First LAN deathmatch: Duke Nukem 3D
Great Game Reawakening: Living in an apartment with all sixth generation consoles and 3 gaming rigs.
New Systems: Wii, DS.
Somehow now owns: PS3
Randomly owns: SEGA Nomad, Game Gear, Genesis II, Sega CD
Cannot afford but is thinking about intercepting return RROD coffin: Xbox 360.
Currently playing: Rock Band, Zack & Wiki, Unreal Tournament III
Destructoid is an independently-run publication forged by our love of video games and the gaming community's need of accountable enthusiast press living the dream since March 16, 2006
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No, just retarded.
Well, I'm sure that there are at least some people who play games and are racists, maybe even a lot of them, but unless there is something inherently racist about playing games then labeling the entire subculture of gamers as racists is inaccurate. It may simply be the case that there are racists who play games, in much the same way that there are violent people who play games but it doesn't mean that gamers are inherently violent.
When you've got a blog that has a commenter called coonskin05 and nobody questions him about his name or says that's a bit messed up, you know your blog is infested with racists.
I think of raccoon skin. What else does it mean?
Certainly nothing racist, I hope.
Why do you call out coonskin? His name might just be referring to the animal! People that point out racial things are usually racist themselves.
If there was a commenter by the name of Honkey Joe would you get all crazy about it? Stupid double atandards!
NIIGA :D
I said nigga :D
Haha so I shouldn\'t say it next time?
If he was referring to racoons then his name would be racoonskin.
& DVD, Coon is the same as saying nigge-r, some people think the term is even worse.
BTW I'm half white Jack Of No Trades haha and Honkey isn't offence as coon I think.
EDIT: I think comments with N1663R in them don't show up as some kinda filter thing.
What's racist about my name? The town I grew up in is called Frisco, TX, and their mascot was the Frisco Coons. When I was younger I made my AIM sn a spinoff of our mascot, which tons of kids did when they were younger. That name then moved on to XBL, which then moved on to here.
LOL I wasn't calling you racist I just wasn't sure because back in the days o' slavery white guys used to skin black guys, also known as coons.
ok, so notice the lighthearted responses here.
I think if anyone around here was actually being discriminated against, people would step up pretty damn quick to defend the victim.
I think around here people are [/i]unracist[/i] enough to be able to make these jokes, knowing that they aren't going to offend each other, and it's in good fun. (insert statement about perpetuating stereotypes)
On gamers as a whole: No I dont think we're any more racist than another group. We're probably more accepting than a lot of people. But the INTERNET is ANONYMOUS and people on the internet feel at ease to say whatever bullshit they please to whoever they please, so all the shit actual racist people are afraid to say in public comes out online.
Justice
Some black people act like Nigge-rs, and some don't. The same goes for each race. There are bad people and there are good people. Im sorry to say, but statistics show the black community has way more N-words than nice people.
@Mantra: I don't think there is anything inherently racist about gaming, just that there seems to be an inexplicably high concentration among gamers.
@JACK of No Trades: Don't you go making fun of my good friend Honkey Joe!
@atheistium: Ummm... OK. I think you really shocked people there, maybe even BLOWING THEIR MINDS. Or maybe it's a joke?
Haha I understand where your coming from JonT, but nigge-rs wasn't a term to describe specific group of black people, it was just meant for all black people.
Thank you cookskin.
I knew you were from the Dallas area, but didn't know where.
Yeah, Frisco only just recently changed their high school mascot out of pressure from the majority white community fearing non-existent problems from some unknown non-protesting group of blacks.
It's stupid really.
They're the "Fighting 'Coons".
And a raccoon is their mascot.
Thank you for providing validity to my story DVD.
Yes, Frisco recently did change the name, because of all the NOT upset black people that were MPT up in arms.
MPT? I fail. That is supposed to be NOT again. :(
There seems to be a pervasive theory that if everyone just ignores everything about race, things will somehow heal. At the risk of offending people who hold this view, really simple solutions to extremely complex, deep-rooted problems usually don't work as well as one might think. Otherwise people would have, y'know, done them and the problem would be solved.
Anyway, off-topic by me. The fact that people feel free to make racist comments (litmus test: would you make the same comment in front of a group of diverse strangers?) here and elsewhere implies to me that such commenters expect to be supported, or at least not shunned, by the community. It's a different situation than a purely anonymous post because we've invested time and energy into our usernames, and won't lightly give it up.
I'm going to talk from my perspective because I don't like generalising about other people.
I don't like racists, but I also don't like anti-racists - they tend to be as inflamitry as the racists. Of course, I love the fireworks display between the two groups, but I don't like it when it spills out into the audience. Because the whole issue is just dead to me. It's been like 100 years now since that shit, society as a whole should have moved on. The only thing that is going to define a difference from one racial culture to the next is continuing the idea that there's a difference, and anyone who contributes to that, with it be pro or anti, is making the whole thing worse. The fact is that your personality is formed from the way you are raised, so anything you do is the responsibility of the people who raised you. Now, don't think I'm ignorant to the role of genes, because they do definately have an effect, but not the extent where they are tied in with the colour of your skin, or the colour of your hair and so on.
As such, I will continue to make fun of the whole issue, because I think it is so ridiculous that it should be completely demonised to the point where anyone who seriously makes the distinction is outcast, like you would a Nazi or a psychic or the Irish.
@coonskin05: Maybe the white residents were worried that people would unfairly perceive the town as a stereotypically hick, racist Texas backwater. For comparison, see the former Pekin High School Chinks of Pekin, IL ("Go Chinks!"??). It wasn't the large Chinese population that protested.
@ Max: I knew that probably wasn't what you were asking, I was just trying to point out that the question suggested more than what you may have intended.
I don't think that there really is a higher concentration of racists among gamers than other social groups. While there is certainly a higher percentage of upper-middle class white males in the gaming community, I have found that, as a kind of counter-culture ourselves, we tend to be more tolerant of minority social groups. As far as why there are so many racist remarks made by gamers on the Internet, the same question can be asked of homophobic remarks as well. Certainly, if all you looked at were Halo 2 online players you might think that most gamers were homophobic, but just look at the support from the gaming community when GayGamer.net was DoS'd by homophobic hackers. Gamers generally like to joke and be ironic, and gamers on the Internet in particular really lend credence to John Gabriel's Greater Internet Dickwad Theory. There is a huge difference though between supporting someone's racial slur and lolling at it.
Um okay. I just posted something but it ain't here. Weird.
Anyway, I'm surprised by how not racist most people here seem to be. The irony though is that in the same breath that half the people on the site would chastise someone for calling a person an "N-word" they wouldn't hesitate to call someone a F4G. Double standard, thy name is the internet.
Really? Frisco? It's a growing city, and getting more covered in the metroplex area, so maybe that's why they changed it. Also, they're starting to get big in the soccer world(FC Dallas, FTW!) so maybe they wanted to nip it in the bud before anyone from out of town heard about it and got offended.
On the main topic, I don't think anyone(well, most anyone) on this site is racist, I think that when they make comments such as the ones on the last few days controversial posts, they're trying to get a rise out of other members who may not have a "black" sense of humor. And no, I didn't mean that as a pun.
Max, I've been wondering the same thing for the last few days due to the abnormal postings of race relations on the site.
Also, I ought to point out that no, I wouldn't make similar comments in front of total strangers, but that's because people are idiots. I've found the majority of the destructoid community to be generally un-stupid.
I think you just have to put it into perspective. 100 years ago, black people were slaves and the British Empire was just about to decide that I should probably hold back on the whole "conquering the world" thing. People were sold and killed, native Americans got the shit torn out of their homes, it wasn't particularly "understanding".
Now, we have rich culture, human rights, a culture that is growing and learning from it's mistakes... yeah there are still going to be some hardcore racists and yeah there are going to be some people who are intimidated by the whole issue enough to become mildly racist. There's a lot of people with difficult lives that are just victims of circumstance, and there's also probably a bit of indignance on both "sides" when you factor in responsibility, rights, fears, dreams and all that. But ultimately, it's not really that bad - we're getting there, it'll just take time.
Incidentally, I thought your post was quite good, quite reasoned and interesting. Ignore the twats like Angels Don't Burn who call you retarded. I think you're wrong, but artfully, intelligently wrong, and that's better than just "lol racism wut".
What was frisco's mascot?
& MaxVest I wholeheartedly agree, even on editors posts the n word comes up, I know it's in good fun, but it's unnecessary I didn't come here to be degraded lol
and I fail. Thanks for beating me to the punch Mantra.
Still though I think it's weird that people can consider themselves supportive to the situation of other people (like those who came out in support of GayGamer) but still throw around slurs that exist simply to hurt those same people they just spoke in support of. But I guess most of that comes from people not thinking about how people interpret what they say and to some degree we are all occasionally guilty of that.
@UglyPhil: I agree with many of your points, and I don't necessarily believe that gamers are somehow ultra-racist.
However, as a community we are pretty quick to shut down other types of shit-disturbers. For example, the gaygamer.net DOS incident was handled rather tastefully, by internet standards. I just haven't seen the same when it comes to racial matters. It also seems odd that some of the commenters who criticize minorities for refusing to let racial scars heal emphatically repeat this criticism at every opportunity, rather than just... letting racial scars heal.
Also, I choose to believe that AngelsDontBurn was replying to my title question. Optimistic? Perhaps.
Justice, our mascot was an anthromorphic raccoon.
and Blehman, where do you live? obviously pretty close if you know that we got FC Dallas.
I'm a gamer + I'm not racist = not all gamers are racist. I think most of the kids here on Dtoid are trying to make jokes, but end up actually sounding really racist.
My reply ended up kinda huge, so I turned it into a cblog instead. Read here, if you wanna.
Otherwise, to sum it up, I mostly agree with what MaxVest said...
@brainderailment: That's what I was trying to say!
@coonskin: North central Dallas, I work with a nurse from up Frisco way.
Maybe not racist, but lacking any connection to the social awareness, like you said. I think that's the primary "thing". Not an issue, or a major negative. Just a facet of not generally having to or choosing to deal with the concept of actually being a social miniority.
Also, the sftuajpg mentality is in there somewhere.
Also black zombies.
. . .
JimSterlingdoesn'tcareaboutblackpeople.
Well we live in a society where being pushing the envelope is considered humourous, so things such as saying that Mexicans aren't people is funny because it's offensive.
It doesn't necessarily mean that the person really feels that way, they are often just looking for shock value.
coonskin05 I figured, because when you first came on dtoid i was watchful but then you seemed like a really sound guy so I figured your username wasn't racial at all
Thanks man.
@MaxVest;
You're obviously an intelligent person, and I admire you for saying what you think so eloquently. I don't think that it's at "every opportunity"... I think it's very simple. If someone comes on here and in all seriousness says "I was offended by a joke that someone made on here, so you all must be racists", without really seeing the irony in that, then I think the response is probably, on average, going to be a critical one.
I also think there's a difference between healing scars and venting your insecurities at a large group of (more or less) innocenct users. You don't need to excorsize your demons by attacking random people, you do it through debate or persuation or understanding, or at the least, you just come to accept it.
Also, when it comes down to it, I don't think we're living in a world where people really cater to other peoples feelings. On the internet anyway - at the very least, here, the place of un-apolagetic offensiveness. If that were the case then we'd all be piling our sympathy onto emo people. Like I keep saying, the Internet is a harsh place. It's unforgiving and cold, and you can't expect to be loved wherever you go. You're gonna get criticised and part of what makes you a strong person is to learn to irnore it or at best learn from it.
I do see what you're saying, and to a certain extent I think it would be nice if there was a warmer, more considerate understanding, while still having that entertaining jokey aspect. Y'know, to be able to stand back from the joking podium and say "yeah, I understand what you're saying but we're only having a joke here, so chill out". But it's not going to happen.
Also, I mostly agree with Mantra. Very well put. :)
They're trying to get a reaction, and know that racist terms are the most emotionally charged. I honestly think for the most part it has little to do about race.