HANDY
It's not that genres don't exist anymore, it's that their definitions have become more ambiguous. I'd venture to say that if it takes you three or more genres to describe a game, their relevance has been compromised and become nothing more than an adjective.
It's not that genres don't exist anymore, it's that their definitions have become more ambiguous. I'd venture to say that if it takes you three or more genres to describe a game, their relevance has been compromised and become nothing more than an adjective.
Genre labels are still relevant, its just a matter of using them properly.
Catherine is, at its core, a puzzle game. Story and morality don't change that.
Portal 2 is a puzzle game, being first person doesn't change that.
Metroid Prime is a first person action/adventure. Yeah, there's shooting. Yes, its first person, but you're still roaming around a big expansive world looking for artifacts to open up new paths to explore and take down massive bosses.
Deus Ex is an RPG - always has been, despite first person and shooting flavoring.
I could go on and on, but everything can be traced back to a source and every game has a primary focus. No amount of genre bending makes Persona 4 a dating sim, its still an RPG.
Catherine is, at its core, a puzzle game. Story and morality don't change that.
Portal 2 is a puzzle game, being first person doesn't change that.
Metroid Prime is a first person action/adventure. Yeah, there's shooting. Yes, its first person, but you're still roaming around a big expansive world looking for artifacts to open up new paths to explore and take down massive bosses.
Deus Ex is an RPG - always has been, despite first person and shooting flavoring.
I could go on and on, but everything can be traced back to a source and every game has a primary focus. No amount of genre bending makes Persona 4 a dating sim, its still an RPG.
ELSA
I'd definitely agree with Elsa, and say that using genres is more about us being able to organise ourselves and the things around us better, rather than a rigid system of definition. Genres/categories are never fixed, not in books, not in films, not in games. If you look at the definition of a 'horror' novel for instance I'm sure you'll find no two novels the same, though they might have a lot in common and share character archetypes, themes and writing style, there are always differences. Still, we group them together because of what they share, despite their differences, and it's the same with games.
I'd definitely agree with Elsa, and say that using genres is more about us being able to organise ourselves and the things around us better, rather than a rigid system of definition. Genres/categories are never fixed, not in books, not in films, not in games. If you look at the definition of a 'horror' novel for instance I'm sure you'll find no two novels the same, though they might have a lot in common and share character archetypes, themes and writing style, there are always differences. Still, we group them together because of what they share, despite their differences, and it's the same with games.
Genres will always exist, yes the line is blurred, but it helps sell the product. The Dark Knight is an Action/Adventure/Drama/Thriller, but it is considered an Action film to market towards a wider audience. Films have been branching off and incorporating different aspects from other genres into their plots for years, but in the end we only classify them as one genre because it makes it easier for the average consumer to digest the overall idea of the film quickly and make a spending choice. Which is why we can't lose the genre tags because it means more original and wildly mixed titles will be over looked by the average joe looking for an action game, but skips the title due to it's lack of a single definitive description.
ELSA
It's just easier to label things, if you pick apart any game it's actually somewhat rare to find a game that doesn't mix genres, even Super Mario Galaxy has racing and puzzles. People need to put labels on things hence the fiercely debated video games as art, and the recent discussions of online gaming as a sport. Like Silent Protagonist mentioned Metroid Prime is not a traditional FPS, it's essentially a Metroid game that takes place in the First person. It isn't like any other FPS, but it does take place in the first person and there is shooting so it's just easier to call it an FPS.
What tends to happen is that two or more genres blend together and create a new genre, this happens all the time in music and movies. Alot of this discussion revolves around how Fallout 3, Borderlands and Mass Effect defy genre, but they've actually created a new genre the Shooting RPG. They're not just RPGs with guns (Resonace of Fate did that while still being a JRPG) they're games that are structured like an RPG, but the combat revolves around traditional gun play. I know that's pretty blanketed to say, but all genres have games that have large distinctions between each other. Metal Gear Solid and Sly Cooper are both stealth games yet they are polar opposites.
In other words it's just easier to say a game belongs to a particular genre. For instance at first people were thinking Rage was going to have RPG elements like Fallout, then we found out the game would be more similar to Far Cry. If you don't label your game as being from a certain genre it becomes confusing, and it becomes much more difficult to sell a game to an executive or a consumer if they don't understand exactly it is that you're trying to sell them. If you remove genre-labels it just over complicates everything.
It's just easier to label things, if you pick apart any game it's actually somewhat rare to find a game that doesn't mix genres, even Super Mario Galaxy has racing and puzzles. People need to put labels on things hence the fiercely debated video games as art, and the recent discussions of online gaming as a sport. Like Silent Protagonist mentioned Metroid Prime is not a traditional FPS, it's essentially a Metroid game that takes place in the First person. It isn't like any other FPS, but it does take place in the first person and there is shooting so it's just easier to call it an FPS.
What tends to happen is that two or more genres blend together and create a new genre, this happens all the time in music and movies. Alot of this discussion revolves around how Fallout 3, Borderlands and Mass Effect defy genre, but they've actually created a new genre the Shooting RPG. They're not just RPGs with guns (Resonace of Fate did that while still being a JRPG) they're games that are structured like an RPG, but the combat revolves around traditional gun play. I know that's pretty blanketed to say, but all genres have games that have large distinctions between each other. Metal Gear Solid and Sly Cooper are both stealth games yet they are polar opposites.
In other words it's just easier to say a game belongs to a particular genre. For instance at first people were thinking Rage was going to have RPG elements like Fallout, then we found out the game would be more similar to Far Cry. If you don't label your game as being from a certain genre it becomes confusing, and it becomes much more difficult to sell a game to an executive or a consumer if they don't understand exactly it is that you're trying to sell them. If you remove genre-labels it just over complicates everything.
ELSA, but I think, like books, we will have several cases where genre will be hard to define.Take music for example and look how many variants we have in the rock genre.
ELSA
Genre helps us classify things and helps the critical process by allowing us to compare similar titles.
Genre helps us classify things and helps the critical process by allowing us to compare similar titles.
ELSA
Another couple of good write-ups, but I believe Elsa takes it.
If you are asked to describe a game, you either use an established genre distintion ('it's an FPS with RPG elements') or if there is no obvious one available, you make up your own (Katamari Damacy can be called a 'collect-em-up', if you wish).
Another couple of good write-ups, but I believe Elsa takes it.
If you are asked to describe a game, you either use an established genre distintion ('it's an FPS with RPG elements') or if there is no obvious one available, you make up your own (Katamari Damacy can be called a 'collect-em-up', if you wish).
ELSA, Handy lost me when he said that God of War and Darksiders had nothing in common.
I think the issue is now that games have fallen in to relying on subcategories. The main point and what you will be looking at is in the first word. The second more ancillary characteristic is in the second. Borderlands is an FPS RPG. Final Fantasy Tactics is a Strategy RPG. I don't think anybody that has played it will argue that it is a strategy game first and an RPG second.
People try to use the subcategory to define the experience when we all know first and foremost that the main selling point is the first word. The idea is that people need to explain the experience of the game in a single defining characteristic. Mass Effect is a 3rd Person Shooter. I can start throwing descriptive words like Dating Sim and RPG, but those only expand upon the original idea. It's a 3rd Person Shooter. Sure there will be games like Noby Noby Boy that fall outside the typical confines of definition, but they do have a genre.
Handy also used Action Adventure as a single feature. It isn't. It's an action game with adventure elements.
Also, I've always believed that games like Heavy Rain falls under interactive cinema. Sure you can use more to define it, but that's all it really is.
I think the issue is now that games have fallen in to relying on subcategories. The main point and what you will be looking at is in the first word. The second more ancillary characteristic is in the second. Borderlands is an FPS RPG. Final Fantasy Tactics is a Strategy RPG. I don't think anybody that has played it will argue that it is a strategy game first and an RPG second.
People try to use the subcategory to define the experience when we all know first and foremost that the main selling point is the first word. The idea is that people need to explain the experience of the game in a single defining characteristic. Mass Effect is a 3rd Person Shooter. I can start throwing descriptive words like Dating Sim and RPG, but those only expand upon the original idea. It's a 3rd Person Shooter. Sure there will be games like Noby Noby Boy that fall outside the typical confines of definition, but they do have a genre.
Handy also used Action Adventure as a single feature. It isn't. It's an action game with adventure elements.
Also, I've always believed that games like Heavy Rain falls under interactive cinema. Sure you can use more to define it, but that's all it really is.
I'm a little confused, I see a different question being debated here...
"Has genre terminology lost it's relevance?"
Genre distinction refers to the differences between genres, and if we're using two or three genres to define one game then obviously the distinction is lost. A unique game it may be, but "genre distinction" it has not. So I thought the question is whether games that DO have genre distinction are still relevant.
I'm having trouble voting, because I don't think both sides are arguing the same question.
BUT if i'm just being an idiot and getting too technical with semantics, let me know. This could very well be the case.
"Has genre terminology lost it's relevance?"
Genre distinction refers to the differences between genres, and if we're using two or three genres to define one game then obviously the distinction is lost. A unique game it may be, but "genre distinction" it has not. So I thought the question is whether games that DO have genre distinction are still relevant.
I'm having trouble voting, because I don't think both sides are arguing the same question.
BUT if i'm just being an idiot and getting too technical with semantics, let me know. This could very well be the case.
ELSA
This was a hard choice. Both good arguments, and both seemed to address the issue of labelling as opposed to the actual game genres. But I was convinced in the end that although less definative than before, genre-labels are still useful in tying together basic design or action concepts. However, Handy did make a good argument that they are becoming quite hyphenated at this juncture.
I suppose I look at genre definitions like music - classical, metal, progressive, etc. tie together extremely diverse genres, but do give a basic point of reference to the overall inclinations of the work. Further classifications into subgenres (some specific, some obscure) can narrow down the too-encompassing genre into a better-codified piece, but the original definition still provides value.
It will be interesting to see how genres become even more subdivided in later years, as technology and design advances.
This was a hard choice. Both good arguments, and both seemed to address the issue of labelling as opposed to the actual game genres. But I was convinced in the end that although less definative than before, genre-labels are still useful in tying together basic design or action concepts. However, Handy did make a good argument that they are becoming quite hyphenated at this juncture.
I suppose I look at genre definitions like music - classical, metal, progressive, etc. tie together extremely diverse genres, but do give a basic point of reference to the overall inclinations of the work. Further classifications into subgenres (some specific, some obscure) can narrow down the too-encompassing genre into a better-codified piece, but the original definition still provides value.
It will be interesting to see how genres become even more subdivided in later years, as technology and design advances.
@ Dr Spaceman
Wouldn't a debate over genre terminology be more about the words we use to label games, as opposed to whether calling something an RPG or an FPS, etc, still makes sense...?
Wouldn't a debate over genre terminology be more about the words we use to label games, as opposed to whether calling something an RPG or an FPS, etc, still makes sense...?
HANDY
It may be simpler to call Portal an FPS (because that's what it is), but it just can't do the game justice.
It may be simpler to call Portal an FPS (because that's what it is), but it just can't do the game justice.
HANDY
"At the end of the day, when you hear what genre a game is in you still don’t know what you’re in for."
^Pretty much nailed it.
"At the end of the day, when you hear what genre a game is in you still don’t know what you’re in for."
^Pretty much nailed it.
ELSA
I really want to agree with handy but i know the way it has to be.
Certainly for most of us I would say that genre's are usually pretty irrelevant and can be almost ridiculous to apply to certain game types. However silly it can get, it does make things easier for people to quickly sort for a type of game they want to play, especially if they have little to no knowledge of any of the games being purchased. Pretty much a necessary evil type scenario. Its far from perfect but likely better than nothing.
I really want to agree with handy but i know the way it has to be.
Certainly for most of us I would say that genre's are usually pretty irrelevant and can be almost ridiculous to apply to certain game types. However silly it can get, it does make things easier for people to quickly sort for a type of game they want to play, especially if they have little to no knowledge of any of the games being purchased. Pretty much a necessary evil type scenario. Its far from perfect but likely better than nothing.
ELSA
While its obvious that certain games may blend some genres together they typically have one solid foundation and then borrow parts from other genres to add to the experience.
Borderlands is a great example, but I have no qualms about classifying it as an FPS because that is, by and large, the main mechanic at play in the game. Sure there are stats to raise and loot to pick up, but what's the main point of the game? Shoot stuff!
While its obvious that certain games may blend some genres together they typically have one solid foundation and then borrow parts from other genres to add to the experience.
Borderlands is a great example, but I have no qualms about classifying it as an FPS because that is, by and large, the main mechanic at play in the game. Sure there are stats to raise and loot to pick up, but what's the main point of the game? Shoot stuff!
ELSA
There will always be the need to classify anything (and in this case - video games) through some sort of taxonomy. The tree of video games has certainly expanded from when it was founded, as major elements from the base classes of games (like FPS or RPG) have been combined to form new sub-genres. Those base classes can represent a wide spectrum of experiences, but do still speak to the core mechanics of a game.
There will always be the need to classify anything (and in this case - video games) through some sort of taxonomy. The tree of video games has certainly expanded from when it was founded, as major elements from the base classes of games (like FPS or RPG) have been combined to form new sub-genres. Those base classes can represent a wide spectrum of experiences, but do still speak to the core mechanics of a game.
ELSA
There are a lot of games that may fall under multiple genres, but we'll always need a way to classify them. The lines may blur, but by saying that Borderlands is a FPS/RPG, we're still able to tell that shooting is the main thing you'll be doing in the game. As games evolve and include several different elements, it will become more important to know all the elements involved.
There are a lot of games that may fall under multiple genres, but we'll always need a way to classify them. The lines may blur, but by saying that Borderlands is a FPS/RPG, we're still able to tell that shooting is the main thing you'll be doing in the game. As games evolve and include several different elements, it will become more important to know all the elements involved.
ELSA has the side that I am with. Even though it's hard to describe games with just a genre, I'm usually able to use a genre plus some specifics or a comparison to an existing game to describe a game reasonably well.
I'd be somewhat hypocritical if I didn't choose this side, too, since I wrote a long blog a while back essentially wedging games into genres!
I actually really liked this topic; it's something I really hadn't bothered thinking about much.
I'd be somewhat hypocritical if I didn't choose this side, too, since I wrote a long blog a while back essentially wedging games into genres!
I actually really liked this topic; it's something I really hadn't bothered thinking about much.
HANDY
Handy is right that the genres we use are quickly becoming irrelevant for many of our games. Not that we shouldn't use them (He never says we should stop labeling games), just that we need to use multiple genres and other labels to describe a single game, and that renders the distinction irrelevant.
Elsa is right that labels are still relevant to sort and give brief descriptions of games. But many games don't fit into one genre. So again we either end up using multiple labels and additional descriptors, again losing the distinction of that genre, or we put a game into a single category it doesn't really belong in. So what is the point of using that genre?
I can't put Portal into the same genre as Call of Duty, Halo, Resistance and MAG. Likewise, I feel Borderlands is as much RPG as it is FPS.
My point being that the labels (and genres) we choose to use for many games are subjective. Not only because of your own background and preferences, but because many games give you a choice of HOW to play through it, like ME2, Deus Ex and Borderlands.
Elsa, you made this very hard for me to vote against you! I wrote and rewrote this argument like 6 times, going back and forth between you and Handy. Good job.
Handy is right that the genres we use are quickly becoming irrelevant for many of our games. Not that we shouldn't use them (He never says we should stop labeling games), just that we need to use multiple genres and other labels to describe a single game, and that renders the distinction irrelevant.
Elsa is right that labels are still relevant to sort and give brief descriptions of games. But many games don't fit into one genre. So again we either end up using multiple labels and additional descriptors, again losing the distinction of that genre, or we put a game into a single category it doesn't really belong in. So what is the point of using that genre?
I can't put Portal into the same genre as Call of Duty, Halo, Resistance and MAG. Likewise, I feel Borderlands is as much RPG as it is FPS.
My point being that the labels (and genres) we choose to use for many games are subjective. Not only because of your own background and preferences, but because many games give you a choice of HOW to play through it, like ME2, Deus Ex and Borderlands.
Elsa, you made this very hard for me to vote against you! I wrote and rewrote this argument like 6 times, going back and forth between you and Handy. Good job.
I wouldn't be surprised to see better-defined genres pop up in more common usage (e.g., multiplayer perk-based FPS, cinematic 3rd-person action, retro-styled 2.5D platformer, new Suda51 game which is a new Suda51 game). I wonder if the majority of the difficulty at this point is simply that there is an inertia towards adopting new genre labels.
ELSA
If the progression of games has made our system of classification overly convoluted, that's a problem with our lack of developing the taxonomy, rather than a problem inherent in the taxonomy itself. Like trying to cram your foot into a wrongly sized shoe, it's natural that dissonance will occur. Saying genres are no longer relevant is much like saying the same of shoes for the reason of someone's big feet.
Love the debate and the comment, by the way. It's a very interesting topic.
If the progression of games has made our system of classification overly convoluted, that's a problem with our lack of developing the taxonomy, rather than a problem inherent in the taxonomy itself. Like trying to cram your foot into a wrongly sized shoe, it's natural that dissonance will occur. Saying genres are no longer relevant is much like saying the same of shoes for the reason of someone's big feet.
Love the debate and the comment, by the way. It's a very interesting topic.

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