Quantcast
Community Discussion: Blog by MassDebate | MassDebate: Has genre distinction lost its relevance?Destructoid
LIGHTS:  ON | OFF
surf dtoid with arrow keys

HOT GAMES
REVIEWS VIDEOS COMMUNITY FORUM SHOP

pc PS4 PS3 NEXT XBOX XBOX 360 WII U 3DS PS vita ANDROID APPLE

REMOVE ALL ADS?
Guaranteed contest entry?
A new video show?
Something else?

Vote in our membership poll

click to hide banner header
About

New header kindly contributed by falsenipple

Brought about as a result of a CaptainBus/Sean Daisy fever dream, Debatoid offers one proposal with two sides; two users give the case for and against the proposal and you vote for the outcome.

Debatoid changed its name to MassDebate, but don't fret; the principle of controversial topics, smart candidate and avid discussion remains at the forefront! Vive la même chose et la difference!

If anyone wants to volunteer a topic or submit their interest in being a contender then please PM MassDebate, email captainbus AT gmail DOT com or message _SeanDaisy on Twitter.

Debatoid Debates:

CaptainBus
versus
mrandydixon
Do FPS games prevent videogames' cultural relevancy?
The proposition: As long as FPS games are our most popular genre, videogames will not be taken culturally seriously.
Debatoid rejects the proposition!

rexwolf2
versus
AwesomeExMachina
Will Mario still be New and Super in 2036?
The proposition: Super Mario platformers will still be released to critical acclaim and commercial success in 25 years time.
Debatoid accepts the proposition!

JT Murphy
versus
Corduroy Turtle
Are scores necessary in video game reviews?
The proposition: Scores are necessary in video game reviews.
Debatoid rejects the proposition!

Andrew Kauz
versus
Nihil
Are zombies an overused gaming concept?
The proposition: Zombies are an overused gaming concept.
Debatoid accepts the proposition!

Ali D
versus
SuperMonk4Ever
Game In A Box: Endangered in the next 10 Years?
The proposition: In 10 years time physical media will become marginalised.
Debatoid rejects the proposition!

ImMatureTony
versus
falsenipple
Are video games trying too hard to be like movies?
The proposition: Video games are trying too hard to be like movies.
Debatoid accepts the proposition!

Handy
versus
LawofThermalDynamics
Can sex have a positive role to play in video games?
The proposition: Sex has no positive role to play in video games.
Debatoid rejects the proposition!

Eprahim
versus
SteezyXL
Does portable gaming represent the dominant future of video games?
The proposition: Portable gaming represents the dominant future of the video game industry.
Debatoid rejects the proposition!

mrandydixon (PC)
Sexualchocolate (PS3)
rexwolf2 (Wii)
Nihil (XBox 360)
Debatoid Special: Which platform is best for home gaming this generation?
The proposition: The PC / PS3 / Wii / XBox 360 represents the best that this generation's home gaming has to offer.
Debatoid selects the PC!

VenusInFurs
versus
CaptainBus
In 25 years, will controllers with sticks/buttons be rare in gaming?
The proposition: In 25 years, controllers with sticks/buttons will be rare in gaming.
Debatoid changes into MassDebate and rejects the proposition!

MassDebate Debates:

Byronic Man
versus
garethxxgod
Is XBOX Live a dangerous precedent for basic online service?
The proposition: XBOX LIVE sets a damaging precedent by charging a premium for rudimentary online service.
MassDebate rejects the proposition!

GoofierBrute
versus
Wolfy-Boey
Has rhythm action gaming had its heyday?
The proposition: Rhythm action gaming has had its heyday.
MassDebate rejects the proposition!

Malik
versus
Sean Daisy
Are videogames too focused on destruction?
The proposition: Videogames are too focused on destruction.
MassDebate rejects the proposition!

Keelut2012
versus
Batthink
Is there eough racial diversity in videogames?
The proposition: There is enough racial diversity in videogames.
MassDebate rejects the proposition!

ManWithNoName
versus
Caiters
Are videogames addictive?
The proposition: Videogames are addictive.
MassDebate rejects the proposition!

Handy
versus
Elsa
Has genre distinction lost its relevance?
The proposition: Genre distinction has lost its relevance.
MassDebate rejects the proposition!


Player Profile
Follow me:
MassDebate's sites
Badges
Following (28)  





Welcome to MassDebate! We take a controversial topic, form a proposition, and set two contenders the challenge of stating their case in favor of and in opposition to the proposition. After which, users may vote to decide which contender they support. Rules for voting are at the bottom of the blog, but it is recommended that you read the contenders' cases before you cast your vote.

The proposition: Genre distinction has lost its relevance





Handy argues in favor of the proposition:

Games, even in just the last decade, have changed immensely. Games have expanded, so many games take so many elements from other genres that they’ve become hard to pin down in any one group. Sure some games will always fit nicely into their genre, Gran Turismo will always be a racing game and Street Fighter will always be a fighter. But so many games today borrow from other genres, or outright defy classification altogether that the whole system seems a little outdated.

Take Borderlands for example, best described as an online four player co-op FPS RPG, that’s a mouthful, and that’s with three abbreviations (co-op, FPS and RPG).

Genre descriptions don’t seem to give us a very good idea of the games they represent anymore. Look at games like Mass Effect 2 and Final Fantasy XIII, both RPG’s yet they couldn’t be more different; an open ended third person shooter and a series of corridors with menu based combat.

Even within that categories’ sub-genres the games still don’t fit the description. Proportionately speaking, most Japanese role playing games don’t involve any actual role playing, the player makes no decisions that the story and it plays out in a linear fashion. Until the game proves otherwise – we just assume JRPG is shorthand for “Long-ass game with lots of numbers”

Who here thinks of Demon’s Souls as a JRPG? Because that’s exactly what it is and I’ve not heard anyone describe it that way, our perceptions of what makes a JRPG have changed to the point where the genre name no longer describes what we expect from the game itself.

Or games that take queues from other genres, like the games that experiment with sandboxes, what is a sandbox game? A game with an open-world in which players are given freedom, there are many optional distractions and missions can be tackled non-linearly. That’s great, except for L.A. Noire, and Shadow of the Colossus, and Mafia 2, and No More Heroes and so on....

And that’s not even taking into account that sandbox games are already just a mishmash of other genre mechanics only added to an open-world. Most sandbox games are an open-world plus other genres’ travel mechanics and combat system. For example Open-world + Driving + Third Person Shooter = GTA, Open-world + Free running + Hack and slash + Stealth = Assassin’s Creed.

Even Call of Duty – something constantly derided as a bland, run of the mill FPS – uses an RPG style progression system in its multiplayer. That’s the most popular feature of the most popular game and even that borrows from another genre.

Then there are the games that don’t fit in any category, what type of genre is Katamari Damacy in again? Rolling kleptomania simulators? What about Typing of the Dead? Mister Mosquito? Heavy Rain? Noby Noby Boy or Seaman?

There’s also the idea that the genre itself doesn’t matter to the consumer in lieu of what else the game offers. How many people have you heard saying they can’t wait to play Catherine, except for the puzzle parts? You know, the puzzle parts that make up the actual gameplay? I don’t really like FPS games but I know I can’t wait for Bioshock Infinite. Games can have so much to them these days that the genre doesn’t even matter that much sometimes.

And then of course there’s the wonderfully vague “Action-Adventure” genre, which encompasses pretty much every game ever made except maybe those train sims. Basically the fallback for when a game tries anything new or is a little hard to describe, because they don’t quite fit in any traditional genre, or maybe they fit into three or more at once.

Uncharted, Batman: Arkham Asylum, Darksiders, Yakuza, Dead Rising, Enslaved, God of War, what do these games have in common? Nothing. Yet they all fall into the Action-Adventure category, because we’ve got nowhere else to put them, or sometimes too many places to put them

At the end of the day, when you hear what genre a game is in you still don’t know what you’re in for. Only until you watch footage and read reviews will you start to get the picture. And I think it’s a good thing too, that games have expanded and evolved so much, it’s just that some of our terminology hasn’t.





Elsa argues against the proposition:

My initial thought when I received the note saying I'd been picked to argue that genre distinction has NOT lost it's relevance was "crap!". I've played Borderlands, Uncharted and other games that blur the lines of being in a specific genre, so my initial thought was that so many games now combine elements from various genres, that genre distinction is almost useless... but on further thinking I've come to the conclusion that genre distinction has not lost it's relevance - at all.

First off, why do we use genre distinction? One of the main reason is simply description. Genre distinctions in video games describe gameplay elements. An FPS game is a "First Person Shooter". The view is first person and a primary gameplay element in the game will be shooting. There may be puzzle elements (as in Portal), there may be RPG elements (as in Borderlands) but the easiest way to ascribe a gameplay description to those games is still to simply say "it's an FPS game" and gamers know what is meant. There are some people that don't like the first person viewpoint and it may make them naseuous or dizzy - regardless of other aspects of the game, they may not like the game simply based on the simple "FPS" descriptor. Some people love "platformers". The plots, settings and characters in these games can vary greatly, but when talking of a platformer, gamers know that the game will involve a lot of jumping, climbing, swinging, bouncing or some other means of traveling between platforms. Genre distinction is very simply a linguistic short cut and part of the language we use when describing video games.

Now that we've established the importance of the descriptive necessities of genre distinctions we come to the second reason that genres are important to gaming - classification, or the ability to group similar objects. If you purchase a new console that already has an established library, one of the easiest ways to find games you might like is to simply view the games available according to their genre classification. Books, movies and music all use genre distinctions as classification so that people can find similar media. Games are no different. The genre distinctions of games (unlike books or movies) don't revolve around plot or setting, but instead use gameplay elements - a more important classification system to gamers. Just as many movies and books have multiple genres, so too do games, but this does not negate the importance of having a classification or multiple classifications. There simply needs to be some way of organizing similar games so that people can find games with elements that they enjoy (or alternatively avoid games with elements they dislike).

Genre distinction in video games will never lose it's relevance. Over time it will increasingly become more and more important as game libraries continue to grow and as more and more games are produced. As new genres are developed, they add to our language. "Rhythm" games will incorporate responding to music as a primary factor in the gameplay, and "Motion Control" games are an indicator that we won't be sitting on our butts playing the game and may need peripherals.

Using genre distinctions is the easiest and best way we have of describing what kind of game it is, what other games it's most similar to. Genre distinction is part of our gaming language, our culture. This will never change. So, no. Genre distinction has not lost it's relevance. If anything, it becomes more relevant and more important than ever as gaming continues to grow.

Very simply... can you imagine describing a game without using genre distinction? Can you imagine looking at a large list of upcoming games without genre distinction? Would you rather see the listing for "Scivelation - release date: TBA 2011"... or would you rather see "Scivelation - shooter - release date: TBA 2011"?





Many thanks to Handy and Elsa for their contributions.

Now, the ground rules for voting:

1. The users that set out the MassDebate (Handy and Elsa) are not eligible to vote. (we can guess where their allegiances lie)

2. Feel free to comment at any point before, during or after you have voted.

3. To vote, begin your comment HANDY or ELSA depending on whether you support the proposition (HANDY) or you oppose the proposition (ELSA). The rest of your comment can be used to, you know, comment.

4. Only comments that begin with HANDY or ELSA may be considered in the voting process. Ensure you are spelling your vote correctly and placing it in capitals.

5. One vote per user. Only your first vote will count; there are no do-overs. Do not spam the comments. Don’t bully other users into voting your way. Let’s keep it clean. Don’t be a wang.

6. Your voting should be based on the strength of the arguments set out by the contenders. Though your opinion may go some way towards forming your decision, do try to be as impartial as you can muster.

7. Any failure to undertake these rules or any ambiguity surrounding your vote may damage the chance of your vote counting. Whether or not your vote ultimately counts is at MassDebate's discretion. Maximise your chances by voting correctly.

8. The vote total will be accumulated and the results given on Mon 15th August. Ensure you get your vote in by Sun 14th August for your vote to count.



Is this blog awesome? Vote it up!




Those who have come:



Did you know? You can now get daily or weekly email notifications when humans reply to your comments.

Legacy Comments (will be imported soon)


HANDY

It's not that genres don't exist anymore, it's that their definitions have become more ambiguous. I'd venture to say that if it takes you three or more genres to describe a game, their relevance has been compromised and become nothing more than an adjective.
Genre labels are still relevant, its just a matter of using them properly.

Catherine is, at its core, a puzzle game. Story and morality don't change that.
Portal 2 is a puzzle game, being first person doesn't change that.

Metroid Prime is a first person action/adventure. Yeah, there's shooting. Yes, its first person, but you're still roaming around a big expansive world looking for artifacts to open up new paths to explore and take down massive bosses.

Deus Ex is an RPG - always has been, despite first person and shooting flavoring.

I could go on and on, but everything can be traced back to a source and every game has a primary focus. No amount of genre bending makes Persona 4 a dating sim, its still an RPG.
Oh, and if it wasn't clear, ELSA is my vote :P
ELSA

I'd definitely agree with Elsa, and say that using genres is more about us being able to organise ourselves and the things around us better, rather than a rigid system of definition. Genres/categories are never fixed, not in books, not in films, not in games. If you look at the definition of a 'horror' novel for instance I'm sure you'll find no two novels the same, though they might have a lot in common and share character archetypes, themes and writing style, there are always differences. Still, we group them together because of what they share, despite their differences, and it's the same with games.
Genres will always exist, yes the line is blurred, but it helps sell the product. The Dark Knight is an Action/Adventure/Drama/Thriller, but it is considered an Action film to market towards a wider audience. Films have been branching off and incorporating different aspects from other genres into their plots for years, but in the end we only classify them as one genre because it makes it easier for the average consumer to digest the overall idea of the film quickly and make a spending choice. Which is why we can't lose the genre tags because it means more original and wildly mixed titles will be over looked by the average joe looking for an action game, but skips the title due to it's lack of a single definitive description.
ELSA

It's just easier to label things, if you pick apart any game it's actually somewhat rare to find a game that doesn't mix genres, even Super Mario Galaxy has racing and puzzles. People need to put labels on things hence the fiercely debated video games as art, and the recent discussions of online gaming as a sport. Like Silent Protagonist mentioned Metroid Prime is not a traditional FPS, it's essentially a Metroid game that takes place in the First person. It isn't like any other FPS, but it does take place in the first person and there is shooting so it's just easier to call it an FPS.

What tends to happen is that two or more genres blend together and create a new genre, this happens all the time in music and movies. Alot of this discussion revolves around how Fallout 3, Borderlands and Mass Effect defy genre, but they've actually created a new genre the Shooting RPG. They're not just RPGs with guns (Resonace of Fate did that while still being a JRPG) they're games that are structured like an RPG, but the combat revolves around traditional gun play. I know that's pretty blanketed to say, but all genres have games that have large distinctions between each other. Metal Gear Solid and Sly Cooper are both stealth games yet they are polar opposites.

In other words it's just easier to say a game belongs to a particular genre. For instance at first people were thinking Rage was going to have RPG elements like Fallout, then we found out the game would be more similar to Far Cry. If you don't label your game as being from a certain genre it becomes confusing, and it becomes much more difficult to sell a game to an executive or a consumer if they don't understand exactly it is that you're trying to sell them. If you remove genre-labels it just over complicates everything.
ELSA, but I think, like books, we will have several cases where genre will be hard to define.Take music for example and look how many variants we have in the rock genre.
ELSA

Genre helps us classify things and helps the critical process by allowing us to compare similar titles.
ELSA

Another couple of good write-ups, but I believe Elsa takes it.

If you are asked to describe a game, you either use an established genre distintion ('it's an FPS with RPG elements') or if there is no obvious one available, you make up your own (Katamari Damacy can be called a 'collect-em-up', if you wish).
ELSA, Handy lost me when he said that God of War and Darksiders had nothing in common.

I think the issue is now that games have fallen in to relying on subcategories. The main point and what you will be looking at is in the first word. The second more ancillary characteristic is in the second. Borderlands is an FPS RPG. Final Fantasy Tactics is a Strategy RPG. I don't think anybody that has played it will argue that it is a strategy game first and an RPG second.

People try to use the subcategory to define the experience when we all know first and foremost that the main selling point is the first word. The idea is that people need to explain the experience of the game in a single defining characteristic. Mass Effect is a 3rd Person Shooter. I can start throwing descriptive words like Dating Sim and RPG, but those only expand upon the original idea. It's a 3rd Person Shooter. Sure there will be games like Noby Noby Boy that fall outside the typical confines of definition, but they do have a genre.

Handy also used Action Adventure as a single feature. It isn't. It's an action game with adventure elements.

Also, I've always believed that games like Heavy Rain falls under interactive cinema. Sure you can use more to define it, but that's all it really is.
I'm a little confused, I see a different question being debated here...
"Has genre terminology lost it's relevance?"

Genre distinction refers to the differences between genres, and if we're using two or three genres to define one game then obviously the distinction is lost. A unique game it may be, but "genre distinction" it has not. So I thought the question is whether games that DO have genre distinction are still relevant.

I'm having trouble voting, because I don't think both sides are arguing the same question.

BUT if i'm just being an idiot and getting too technical with semantics, let me know. This could very well be the case.
ELSA

This was a hard choice. Both good arguments, and both seemed to address the issue of labelling as opposed to the actual game genres. But I was convinced in the end that although less definative than before, genre-labels are still useful in tying together basic design or action concepts. However, Handy did make a good argument that they are becoming quite hyphenated at this juncture.

I suppose I look at genre definitions like music - classical, metal, progressive, etc. tie together extremely diverse genres, but do give a basic point of reference to the overall inclinations of the work. Further classifications into subgenres (some specific, some obscure) can narrow down the too-encompassing genre into a better-codified piece, but the original definition still provides value.

It will be interesting to see how genres become even more subdivided in later years, as technology and design advances.
@ Dr Spaceman

Wouldn't a debate over genre terminology be more about the words we use to label games, as opposed to whether calling something an RPG or an FPS, etc, still makes sense...?
HANDY

It may be simpler to call Portal an FPS (because that's what it is), but it just can't do the game justice.
HANDY

"At the end of the day, when you hear what genre a game is in you still don’t know what you’re in for."

^Pretty much nailed it.
ELSA
I really want to agree with handy but i know the way it has to be.

Certainly for most of us I would say that genre's are usually pretty irrelevant and can be almost ridiculous to apply to certain game types. However silly it can get, it does make things easier for people to quickly sort for a type of game they want to play, especially if they have little to no knowledge of any of the games being purchased. Pretty much a necessary evil type scenario. Its far from perfect but likely better than nothing.
ELSA

While its obvious that certain games may blend some genres together they typically have one solid foundation and then borrow parts from other genres to add to the experience.

Borderlands is a great example, but I have no qualms about classifying it as an FPS because that is, by and large, the main mechanic at play in the game. Sure there are stats to raise and loot to pick up, but what's the main point of the game? Shoot stuff!
ELSA

There will always be the need to classify anything (and in this case - video games) through some sort of taxonomy. The tree of video games has certainly expanded from when it was founded, as major elements from the base classes of games (like FPS or RPG) have been combined to form new sub-genres. Those base classes can represent a wide spectrum of experiences, but do still speak to the core mechanics of a game.
Man I hate typing at work. My god the grammar errors I posted for the world to see.
ELSA

There are a lot of games that may fall under multiple genres, but we'll always need a way to classify them. The lines may blur, but by saying that Borderlands is a FPS/RPG, we're still able to tell that shooting is the main thing you'll be doing in the game. As games evolve and include several different elements, it will become more important to know all the elements involved.
ELSA has the side that I am with. Even though it's hard to describe games with just a genre, I'm usually able to use a genre plus some specifics or a comparison to an existing game to describe a game reasonably well.

I'd be somewhat hypocritical if I didn't choose this side, too, since I wrote a long blog a while back essentially wedging games into genres!

I actually really liked this topic; it's something I really hadn't bothered thinking about much.
HANDY

Handy is right that the genres we use are quickly becoming irrelevant for many of our games. Not that we shouldn't use them (He never says we should stop labeling games), just that we need to use multiple genres and other labels to describe a single game, and that renders the distinction irrelevant.

Elsa is right that labels are still relevant to sort and give brief descriptions of games. But many games don't fit into one genre. So again we either end up using multiple labels and additional descriptors, again losing the distinction of that genre, or we put a game into a single category it doesn't really belong in. So what is the point of using that genre?

I can't put Portal into the same genre as Call of Duty, Halo, Resistance and MAG. Likewise, I feel Borderlands is as much RPG as it is FPS.

My point being that the labels (and genres) we choose to use for many games are subjective. Not only because of your own background and preferences, but because many games give you a choice of HOW to play through it, like ME2, Deus Ex and Borderlands.

Elsa, you made this very hard for me to vote against you! I wrote and rewrote this argument like 6 times, going back and forth between you and Handy. Good job.
also, ELSA IS FAMOUS NOW GUYS!!!
I wouldn't be surprised to see better-defined genres pop up in more common usage (e.g., multiplayer perk-based FPS, cinematic 3rd-person action, retro-styled 2.5D platformer, new Suda51 game which is a new Suda51 game). I wonder if the majority of the difficulty at this point is simply that there is an inertia towards adopting new genre labels.
ELSA

If the progression of games has made our system of classification overly convoluted, that's a problem with our lack of developing the taxonomy, rather than a problem inherent in the taxonomy itself. Like trying to cram your foot into a wrongly sized shoe, it's natural that dissonance will occur. Saying genres are no longer relevant is much like saying the same of shoes for the reason of someone's big feet.

Love the debate and the comment, by the way. It's a very interesting topic.
ELSA

Both were extremely well written, but I feel Elsa's argument is stronger.

Back to Top
DLC   |   BEST Games of 2012   |   Best PC Games   |   Best PS3 Games   |   Best Xbox 360 Games   |   Best Wii U Games   |   Best 3DS Games




All content is yours to recycle through our Creative Commons License permitting non-commercial sharing requiring attribution. Our communities are obsessed with videoGames, movies, anime, and toys.

Living the dream since March 16, 2006

Advertising on destructoid is available: Please contact them to learn more