Okay, first off, EDS little quote goes without saying. Literally. If there's anyone who thinks that game companies, or companies in general, are nice to their customer simply for it's intrinsic value, I would ask them which rock they've been living under since the beginning of the concept of business.
Second, there is a whole genre of games that do just what. It's called indie games. The reason they don't do well however is partly due to the fact that a lot of them are terrible gameplay experiences as well as the fucking oceans of pretension that flow behind them. I just think this problem has been sorta solved, the solution is out there for anyone who's dedicated enough to find it, but the fundamental value of a video game is fun, and sometimes escapism, and most "comformist" games do this very well. Basically, I'm satisfied with what's out there
Second, there is a whole genre of games that do just what. It's called indie games. The reason they don't do well however is partly due to the fact that a lot of them are terrible gameplay experiences as well as the fucking oceans of pretension that flow behind them. I just think this problem has been sorta solved, the solution is out there for anyone who's dedicated enough to find it, but the fundamental value of a video game is fun, and sometimes escapism, and most "comformist" games do this very well. Basically, I'm satisfied with what's out there
I don't really have anything to add, I agree with you. Just wanted to say this was a good blog that I enjoyed reading.
Thanks for reading through all that Om Nom.
I hope I made it clear that I agreed with EDS' quote, I just wanted to stress the fact that profit as a motive is in direct conflict with making a game such as I described.
I totally agree with you that some indie games make an effort, though like you, I don't think many succeed. I had actually planned to mention indie games alongside the GTA series (consumer culture parody) and Bioshock, but I figured the blog was long enough, so I set those points aside. As I noted in the last paragraph, I plan to write a follow up with some counter-arguments and that will mos-def include indie games.
I have to say I totally disagree with you on one point. Just because something is subversive, and non-conformist doesn't mean it can't be fun. Where did this myth even start? In fact I'd argue there is usually a lot more fun to be had in depravity. I personally find the insane surreality of 'El Topo' by Alejandro Jorodowski or the transgressive elements found in a lot of Miike films to be just as enjoyable as watching a paint-by-number generic blockbuster like Iron Man. I'm sure the same shit can be done with games.
I hope I made it clear that I agreed with EDS' quote, I just wanted to stress the fact that profit as a motive is in direct conflict with making a game such as I described.
I totally agree with you that some indie games make an effort, though like you, I don't think many succeed. I had actually planned to mention indie games alongside the GTA series (consumer culture parody) and Bioshock, but I figured the blog was long enough, so I set those points aside. As I noted in the last paragraph, I plan to write a follow up with some counter-arguments and that will mos-def include indie games.
I have to say I totally disagree with you on one point. Just because something is subversive, and non-conformist doesn't mean it can't be fun. Where did this myth even start? In fact I'd argue there is usually a lot more fun to be had in depravity. I personally find the insane surreality of 'El Topo' by Alejandro Jorodowski or the transgressive elements found in a lot of Miike films to be just as enjoyable as watching a paint-by-number generic blockbuster like Iron Man. I'm sure the same shit can be done with games.
@ekm29 Thanks. I'm glad you liked it. I was actually worried I might get laughed out of Dtoid for posting it.
@omnomnomsouls
sorry to burst your bubbles dude, but game designers go out of their way to design their games specifically without using the word "fun". ever. doesn't mean it's not something they keep in mind, but fun is relative. unfortunately, game design is literally just pandering to a specific audience.
fortunately for us, we just happen to be one of these demographics!
and i love your stance on idie games by the way. i've met one indie dev, and it was jonathan blow. he just spouted very pretentious and idealistic crap, and expected everyone to just conform to his ideas. intelligent, but he needs to spend less time taking yoga so he can suck his own dick, and actually pay attention the state of the industry.
@lazaro cruz
good article man. no so much a statement as your mental exploration as to the state of affairs. i like what you have to say man.
sorry to burst your bubbles dude, but game designers go out of their way to design their games specifically without using the word "fun". ever. doesn't mean it's not something they keep in mind, but fun is relative. unfortunately, game design is literally just pandering to a specific audience.
fortunately for us, we just happen to be one of these demographics!
and i love your stance on idie games by the way. i've met one indie dev, and it was jonathan blow. he just spouted very pretentious and idealistic crap, and expected everyone to just conform to his ideas. intelligent, but he needs to spend less time taking yoga so he can suck his own dick, and actually pay attention the state of the industry.
@lazaro cruz
good article man. no so much a statement as your mental exploration as to the state of affairs. i like what you have to say man.
First of all, your hair is stupid and I hate you for having bought Valkyria Chronicles and allowing it to gather dust. That's all I got for the insulting.
Furthermore, I am somewhat of a fan of Vargas Llosa and that particular commentary. I do believe that I have an answer to the questions that you posted at the end of that segment as well.
One big difference that is easily found between literature and other mediums is the ideas of a single person. Anyone who is literate can take up a pen and write their ideas no matter how rebellious or radical. That is why there have been book burnings.
On the other hand video games require the use of a team, and generally when a person is put into a group their ideas are blunted and concessions are made on the part of the group. Because a game cannot be made for the mainstream by a single person, those radical ideas that are found in literature are ground down before being given to the rest of society.
You can argue the same for movies as well. Often times the most inspirational movies are those based on books or the lives of individuals, thus preserving the radical ideals that are presented in those things from which the film draws inspiration. True, there are films that do not have this inspiration and are inspiring in their own right, but these tend to be the films of directors who have complete control over the production, and therefore their ideas do not need the approval of those who are also working on it.
Sure there are games like Braid that have endearing stories and stir emotion, but the issue is that it has no means of reaching the masses, or rather, society for the most part remains ignorant of it. Part of this is the continued development and acceptance of our media as a mainstream form of expression, and as that continues those ideas with original thought will reach more people.
I contend that the rebellious ideas that are found in literature are more often than not the ideals that are held by a single person who need not filter them to deliver them to those willing to listen. However, in order to make a game that will reach a similar number of people, enough to recognize the importance of it anyway, a team is necessary, and unfortunately, groups blunt the ideals of those with original thought.
I do believe that games with that spirit have arrived, but our medium has not developed to the point where those messages reach enough people.
As for the rest of the blog, like I said, games are a business and those that are produced for the masses are made in teams. It is a must. Even if a game were to try and make a statement if it wants to reach a sizable audience, it must have it will undoubtedly have its edges dulled.
Furthermore, I am somewhat of a fan of Vargas Llosa and that particular commentary. I do believe that I have an answer to the questions that you posted at the end of that segment as well.
One big difference that is easily found between literature and other mediums is the ideas of a single person. Anyone who is literate can take up a pen and write their ideas no matter how rebellious or radical. That is why there have been book burnings.
On the other hand video games require the use of a team, and generally when a person is put into a group their ideas are blunted and concessions are made on the part of the group. Because a game cannot be made for the mainstream by a single person, those radical ideas that are found in literature are ground down before being given to the rest of society.
You can argue the same for movies as well. Often times the most inspirational movies are those based on books or the lives of individuals, thus preserving the radical ideals that are presented in those things from which the film draws inspiration. True, there are films that do not have this inspiration and are inspiring in their own right, but these tend to be the films of directors who have complete control over the production, and therefore their ideas do not need the approval of those who are also working on it.
Sure there are games like Braid that have endearing stories and stir emotion, but the issue is that it has no means of reaching the masses, or rather, society for the most part remains ignorant of it. Part of this is the continued development and acceptance of our media as a mainstream form of expression, and as that continues those ideas with original thought will reach more people.
I contend that the rebellious ideas that are found in literature are more often than not the ideals that are held by a single person who need not filter them to deliver them to those willing to listen. However, in order to make a game that will reach a similar number of people, enough to recognize the importance of it anyway, a team is necessary, and unfortunately, groups blunt the ideals of those with original thought.
I do believe that games with that spirit have arrived, but our medium has not developed to the point where those messages reach enough people.
As for the rest of the blog, like I said, games are a business and those that are produced for the masses are made in teams. It is a must. Even if a game were to try and make a statement if it wants to reach a sizable audience, it must have it will undoubtedly have its edges dulled.
I don't really think that gamers want to rebel, or at least that is to say that I don't think that they are look for something that challenges them much beyond gameplay, and if they are it is like you said, not something that is made for the mass market.
@Kinjiro Thanks man. I don't know much about Johnathan Blow besides a few interviews I read by him, but you bring up a good point. I get the sense that many Indie developers sort of pander to what the establishment (art critics, academia, etc) definition of 'high art,' totally just another form of conforming to authority. Most of the movements I mentioned above would have pissed all over those standards.
@Enkido Thanks for the insightful comments, it's cool to find someone else on here that digs Vargas Llosa's work. If i'm right your singular vision point is very similar to one of the arguments Ebert recently made. I concede that unlike literature and cinema, the way games are produced inherently require a collaborative effort, where as film and literature are both a bit more open to someone with a singular vision steering the way. It's certainly something I should consider and think about carefully before following up, especially since a lot of those movements I mentioned in the post eventually splintered due to individual creative differences.
I do want to note that I think some mainstream AAA titles have actually made some small efforts towards being critical of society. I think GTAIV is a pretty damn good satire of consumerist culture/capitalism and Bioshock provides a sharp indictment of Neo-Liberalism theory. Sure they don't far enough but it totally points towards the potential that someone who is willing to go farther can reach.
@Falsenipple Hmm I don't know, it seems that by nature anything that really embraces that rebellious spirit would be considered unacceptable to the mainstream and regulated to the fringe. That being said many fringe movements eventually enter the mainstream and have a profound influence there; think of Punk and the French New Wave movement. Some works are well known despite being considered a bit too out of tune with conventional sensibilities: Lars Von Trier's Anti-Christ is a good example.
@Enkido Thanks for the insightful comments, it's cool to find someone else on here that digs Vargas Llosa's work. If i'm right your singular vision point is very similar to one of the arguments Ebert recently made. I concede that unlike literature and cinema, the way games are produced inherently require a collaborative effort, where as film and literature are both a bit more open to someone with a singular vision steering the way. It's certainly something I should consider and think about carefully before following up, especially since a lot of those movements I mentioned in the post eventually splintered due to individual creative differences.
I do want to note that I think some mainstream AAA titles have actually made some small efforts towards being critical of society. I think GTAIV is a pretty damn good satire of consumerist culture/capitalism and Bioshock provides a sharp indictment of Neo-Liberalism theory. Sure they don't far enough but it totally points towards the potential that someone who is willing to go farther can reach.
@Falsenipple Hmm I don't know, it seems that by nature anything that really embraces that rebellious spirit would be considered unacceptable to the mainstream and regulated to the fringe. That being said many fringe movements eventually enter the mainstream and have a profound influence there; think of Punk and the French New Wave movement. Some works are well known despite being considered a bit too out of tune with conventional sensibilities: Lars Von Trier's Anti-Christ is a good example.
Godzilla rap yes!
I'd like to see you expand on indie games before I commit too much of a reply. I'll agree mainstream developers are comfortable making consumable products and it's hard to be surprised by that. Nor, of course, will I begrudge a company for making a profit and heck, I'm no little fan of many of the entertainment-over-substance works we've received.
However, I'm convinced that "rebellion" will not only come from indie developers, but must, which is why I'm eager to see where you stand on that. For example, whatever you choose to say about Roher's manifesto, it refutes convention. I don't know if this kind of subversion can find a foothold, but discussing it can only help.
I, uh, I'm not confident I'm being clear, but all you need to take away is "good blog, keep writing."
I'd like to see you expand on indie games before I commit too much of a reply. I'll agree mainstream developers are comfortable making consumable products and it's hard to be surprised by that. Nor, of course, will I begrudge a company for making a profit and heck, I'm no little fan of many of the entertainment-over-substance works we've received.
However, I'm convinced that "rebellion" will not only come from indie developers, but must, which is why I'm eager to see where you stand on that. For example, whatever you choose to say about Roher's manifesto, it refutes convention. I don't know if this kind of subversion can find a foothold, but discussing it can only help.
I, uh, I'm not confident I'm being clear, but all you need to take away is "good blog, keep writing."
Oh I in no way meant to imply that subversive equals no fun. That's what satire is, and satire is the fuckin bees knees
There are developers closer to the mainstream that release subversive titles... GTA3, Burnout, Jet Set Radio, Metal Gear Solid 2 & 3.
I find a lot of Sony's in-house titles tend to be developed for the sake of showing off their hardware features, rather than a pure profit motive. Demon's Souls for example wasn't expected to be a major success and was a massive protest against the kinder-and-gentler face that mainstream game development is taking these days.
I find a lot of Sony's in-house titles tend to be developed for the sake of showing off their hardware features, rather than a pure profit motive. Demon's Souls for example wasn't expected to be a major success and was a massive protest against the kinder-and-gentler face that mainstream game development is taking these days.
@Lazaro: Transgressive elements generally are best used for reform and not simply for shock value. So something like No More Heroes, in my opinion, is a step backward. It's good to find a new horizon or step aside from the norm, but considering that there are so many unstated story and design tropes in gaming the difference between something that is understandably seen as a video game and something that turns us on our head and has nothing at all to consider itself as a video game has a small margin of difference. I guess it's a matter of whether the developer wants to challenge us on what we think is a game, or what we are willing to see, feel, and do in our games.
Another issue with rebellion in video games, again this is my opinion, is that rebellion itself is an individuating process for the most part, and gaming in its current state is not. That we are here discussing our thoughts on it and every other thing gaming related is proof of that. We'd have to hope for a gadfly in our forum to instigate us otherwise, and even then we have to look at the ends to which a rebellion is created along with any of the means it uses in getting there.
Asking for a rebellion is nice, but do we want a very French Reign of Terror to make us shit our pants in the process?
Another issue with rebellion in video games, again this is my opinion, is that rebellion itself is an individuating process for the most part, and gaming in its current state is not. That we are here discussing our thoughts on it and every other thing gaming related is proof of that. We'd have to hope for a gadfly in our forum to instigate us otherwise, and even then we have to look at the ends to which a rebellion is created along with any of the means it uses in getting there.
Asking for a rebellion is nice, but do we want a very French Reign of Terror to make us shit our pants in the process?
I am assuming that by insightful comments you are referring to my comment about you hair.
I agree that some titles have begun to move toward that end, but as a whole fall far short. In regard to your examples, GTAIV is a great satire, but I generally find that satire does not provide the direct criticism that is necessary to make people realize. That isn't the game's fault, but the fault of satire, namely that it can be critical, but expects people to realize that it is critical in order to be entertaining, thus losing some of its edge. It is why jesters were often the only ones allowed to dissent against the king.
As for Bioshock, while a great game with a great premise, it seemed to similar to "Atlas Shrugged" for me to believe it did not borrow elements from it. As I said many movies borrow ideas from literature and make powerful statements, however in Bioshock the ideas are not a forthcoming as in "Atlas Shrugged," again most likely due to the team effort.
While I agree that these games are a step in the right direction, I would say that there is still plenty of potential to be utilized. As for Ebert, I disagree with his overall argument but agree with some of his statements. Where he says that games are not art, I argue that games are but have yet to reach their zenith. Just as art existed before the Renaissance, there are games that are art despite the fact that there is still potential that has not been reached.
I agree that some titles have begun to move toward that end, but as a whole fall far short. In regard to your examples, GTAIV is a great satire, but I generally find that satire does not provide the direct criticism that is necessary to make people realize. That isn't the game's fault, but the fault of satire, namely that it can be critical, but expects people to realize that it is critical in order to be entertaining, thus losing some of its edge. It is why jesters were often the only ones allowed to dissent against the king.
As for Bioshock, while a great game with a great premise, it seemed to similar to "Atlas Shrugged" for me to believe it did not borrow elements from it. As I said many movies borrow ideas from literature and make powerful statements, however in Bioshock the ideas are not a forthcoming as in "Atlas Shrugged," again most likely due to the team effort.
While I agree that these games are a step in the right direction, I would say that there is still plenty of potential to be utilized. As for Ebert, I disagree with his overall argument but agree with some of his statements. Where he says that games are not art, I argue that games are but have yet to reach their zenith. Just as art existed before the Renaissance, there are games that are art despite the fact that there is still potential that has not been reached.
@Everyone Thanks for all the thoughtful comments, they gave me a lot to consider and will hopefully help me flesh out/refine or rethink my argument in a later blog.
@Beyamor I'm still waiting for Godzilla's freestyle battle vs. Mothra.
Dude can dance too!
To be honest I really need to research and think a bit more about this before I even come close to reaching a definitive conclusion, but here are some tentative thoughts.
I agree wholeheartedly, the best possible hope for a game with that "FUCK YOU" attitude I described lies with the indie developers. Though as I mentioned in a comment above, I personally feel that many indie games seem to pander to the establishment's (museums, academia, art critics, snobs, the dude from ask jeeves etc) limited ideal of what constitutes 'high art.' They seem to be yearning for acceptance from these instituions. Totally the antithesis of what I described above.
I think Rohrer is in a whole different league; after listening to an interview with him on the "A Life well Wasted" podcast I can mos-def say he seems to be a very interesting dude whose approach towards living life seems to be even more radical than his approach to developing games.
@Ohm Nom om Souls No doubt, my bad for misreading your comment. Believe it or not a lot of what you said before was helpful.
@Pvppy Thanks, I'll take the games you mentioned into consideration. I have mentioned GTAIV in another comment as approaching the direction but not really following through with it. The MGS series certainly makes some attempts at political but it does so in a half hearted way, similar to the way a Hollywood blockbuster (Green Zone, for instance) would approach a controversial subject. Still MGS4 is totally a game I should mention in the future.
@Enkindo Insult my hair!? You must be jealous of my perfectly sculpted vainglorious mane.
Me and you seem to be on the same page regarding the big picture but there are a few details I disagree with.
Honestly I think satire is one of the most powerful and effective forms of protest - I think being entertaining and critical can easily be compatible with being edgy, seditous and subversive. I can name two examples: 1. The Yippie Movement (Abbie Hoffman probably being the most well known proponent) which combined comedic performance-art with an acid laced denounciation of the establishment. And 2. the Dadaists who also embraced satire to piss all over conventions.
Bioshock utilized some of the ideas of Atlas Shrugged and Rand's Objectivist philosophy but it did so mainly to criticize them, not to reiterate them. My point was that while Objectivist philosophy is sort of a pseudo-intellectual movement that no one really took seriously, it did inspire Neo-Liberal theory which has been profoundly influential worldwide in the last 40-50 years. I don't want to get into how effective it is, or how much it's utilization is responsible for oppressive practices, thats all up for debate. I just want to note that Bioshock cleverly critqued it, even if it was in a subtle half-assed way . Like you, I agree it didn't go far enough. I'm not sure if the fact that it was a team effort undermined this as the concepts and ideas in the game seemed to be driven mainly by Ken Levine's vision. (I admit this is mostly an assumption so I might be wrong about this.)
@Beyamor I'm still waiting for Godzilla's freestyle battle vs. Mothra.
Dude can dance too!
To be honest I really need to research and think a bit more about this before I even come close to reaching a definitive conclusion, but here are some tentative thoughts.
I agree wholeheartedly, the best possible hope for a game with that "FUCK YOU" attitude I described lies with the indie developers. Though as I mentioned in a comment above, I personally feel that many indie games seem to pander to the establishment's (museums, academia, art critics, snobs, the dude from ask jeeves etc) limited ideal of what constitutes 'high art.' They seem to be yearning for acceptance from these instituions. Totally the antithesis of what I described above.
I think Rohrer is in a whole different league; after listening to an interview with him on the "A Life well Wasted" podcast I can mos-def say he seems to be a very interesting dude whose approach towards living life seems to be even more radical than his approach to developing games.
@Ohm Nom om Souls No doubt, my bad for misreading your comment. Believe it or not a lot of what you said before was helpful.
@Pvppy Thanks, I'll take the games you mentioned into consideration. I have mentioned GTAIV in another comment as approaching the direction but not really following through with it. The MGS series certainly makes some attempts at political but it does so in a half hearted way, similar to the way a Hollywood blockbuster (Green Zone, for instance) would approach a controversial subject. Still MGS4 is totally a game I should mention in the future.
@Enkindo Insult my hair!? You must be jealous of my perfectly sculpted vainglorious mane.
Me and you seem to be on the same page regarding the big picture but there are a few details I disagree with.
Honestly I think satire is one of the most powerful and effective forms of protest - I think being entertaining and critical can easily be compatible with being edgy, seditous and subversive. I can name two examples: 1. The Yippie Movement (Abbie Hoffman probably being the most well known proponent) which combined comedic performance-art with an acid laced denounciation of the establishment. And 2. the Dadaists who also embraced satire to piss all over conventions.
Bioshock utilized some of the ideas of Atlas Shrugged and Rand's Objectivist philosophy but it did so mainly to criticize them, not to reiterate them. My point was that while Objectivist philosophy is sort of a pseudo-intellectual movement that no one really took seriously, it did inspire Neo-Liberal theory which has been profoundly influential worldwide in the last 40-50 years. I don't want to get into how effective it is, or how much it's utilization is responsible for oppressive practices, thats all up for debate. I just want to note that Bioshock cleverly critqued it, even if it was in a subtle half-assed way . Like you, I agree it didn't go far enough. I'm not sure if the fact that it was a team effort undermined this as the concepts and ideas in the game seemed to be driven mainly by Ken Levine's vision. (I admit this is mostly an assumption so I might be wrong about this.)

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