Thank you for doing this, you've actually inspired me to write my own rebuttal based on my personal points that I feel need stating in this defense of JRPGs.
Good points made, Unangbangkay. Great article.
Also, Anthony is sick of the 'chosen one' plots. He must absolutely hate Suikoden, since it has 120 of the bastards... O_o
Also, Anthony is sick of the 'chosen one' plots. He must absolutely hate Suikoden, since it has 120 of the bastards... O_o
I don't think JRPGs intrinsically suck by any standard, and if they did that standard would not be the linearity or disconnect between gameplay and story. Where JRPGs have often failed for me is in the story. In a genre where the developer wants me to accept the separation and watch them flesh out characters in non-interactive scenes stretching into the hours, I in turn expect the developer to provide a meaningful and interesting story. Originality doesn't even enter into it. Dragon Quest presents some of the least original tales in the genre yet tells the masterfully enough that they are interesting. Final Fantasy IX is a cliche mess of JRPG paradigms that is still enjoyable because of the excellent writing and narrative structure.
I realize I'm not really discussing your point (for, against or otherwise) so I'll leave it at that. One addition: the story in Final Fantasy XII is great, you silly twit.
I realize I'm not really discussing your point (for, against or otherwise) so I'll leave it at that. One addition: the story in Final Fantasy XII is great, you silly twit.
I still think most of them suck, and I like quite a few. It's stagnating as a genre and that irritates me because there are games like Chrono Trigger that made real improvements to the formula, which then were never really imitated. Imitation is good, it makes for progress. It's no good having a game full of good gameplay ideas and then having nobody use them in their future games.
Anyway, as for cutscenes, there's a place for them, sure, but I think it comes from an old, old ideal where people wanted their games to be like movies. That's okay, I guess, but I want my games to be games and can respect a modern game so much more when it is doing what it does best, rather than interrupting me at points along the way to give me a movie.
Anyway, as for cutscenes, there's a place for them, sure, but I think it comes from an old, old ideal where people wanted their games to be like movies. That's okay, I guess, but I want my games to be games and can respect a modern game so much more when it is doing what it does best, rather than interrupting me at points along the way to give me a movie.
Like I said in the post, there are tons of games that no one bothers to highlight when talking about "bad" JRPGS.Ever played Xenogears people? Legend of Legaia? Legend of Dragoon? Tales of Vesperia? Same JRPG off-the-wall characters, some whacky story; awesome fighting system for non-JRPgers to enjoy.
They get a bad rap; I absolutely love this post. Thank you!
They get a bad rap; I absolutely love this post. Thank you!
You know you said 'Anthony' 13 times during the course of this article. I kind of got the feeling that this was more a piece on Anthony being wrong than anything else..
Also in regards to the Persona 4 situation, ultimately I'd argue you're using the same strategy. If you call 'Using Zio' a strategy then yes, you would require another strategy to defeat them like 'Using Agi', but at the same time the ultimate theme seems to be one of every battle exploting your enemies weakness. It might be that you have to use a different element, or you have to play away from their strengths like focussing on magic rather than physical attacks. In other words really there is only really one strategy to the fights; Use everything against an enemy to find its weaknesses/strengths, then from then on scan them and knock them down with that. I've only played for 40 hours, but I've never fought a boss or enemy that required a strategy beyond 'Attack weaknesses/defend against strengths'.
Especially when those weaknesses/strengths can only be one of seven things. It can get slightly more complicated with varying enemy types in the same battle, but this is still just as repetitive as other enounters except this time you use single-target attack spells to exploit weaknesses one by one earning you new turns after each. Or just smashing them with an all-target and taking the repelled damage. There is some strategy, but it's awfully simple.
Also in regards to the Persona 4 situation, ultimately I'd argue you're using the same strategy. If you call 'Using Zio' a strategy then yes, you would require another strategy to defeat them like 'Using Agi', but at the same time the ultimate theme seems to be one of every battle exploting your enemies weakness. It might be that you have to use a different element, or you have to play away from their strengths like focussing on magic rather than physical attacks. In other words really there is only really one strategy to the fights; Use everything against an enemy to find its weaknesses/strengths, then from then on scan them and knock them down with that. I've only played for 40 hours, but I've never fought a boss or enemy that required a strategy beyond 'Attack weaknesses/defend against strengths'.
Especially when those weaknesses/strengths can only be one of seven things. It can get slightly more complicated with varying enemy types in the same battle, but this is still just as repetitive as other enounters except this time you use single-target attack spells to exploit weaknesses one by one earning you new turns after each. Or just smashing them with an all-target and taking the repelled damage. There is some strategy, but it's awfully simple.
You know you said 'Anthony' 13 times during the course of this article....I've only played for 40 hours, but I've never fought a boss or enemy that required a strategy beyond 'Attack weaknesses/defend against strengths'.
Indeed, I did, because it is why I think Anthony (and The Linear RPG are wrong and misunderstand why JRPGs can be fun. This is a direct reaction to his post, as my reaction to Ray Huling's "The Battleship Final Fantasy is a direct address to that piece. That my argument is one that is in favor of the JRPG design philosophy is irrelevant.
In any case, I'll be doing a bit of trimming.
As for "Attacking Strengths/Defending Weaknesses", did you read what you just wrote? isn't that what every single conflict in every game comes down to? Head shots, VATS, flanking, defending your artillery, closing range, the Knight piece only being able to move in "L"-patterns, attack-dodge, the QTE, recoil management, circle-strafing, rocket jumps, jumping on the head, the racing line, the "L" block, rock v. paper v. scissors, the revenge meter, presidential debates, etc. I could go on, and on, and, on.
To talk Persona 4 specifically, that the strategy tends to come down to a 1-out-of-7 choice is fine. The Autonomic Basalts I mentioned take little to no damage from my follow-up attacks, even if they were easily knocked down. As a result I had to knock them down, but waste turns attacking them individually, which kept me from ending a battle in one stroke. If they had been mixed with Daring Gigases or Dancing Hands, who often had powerful counterattacks and no particular weaknesses, taking a long time posed particular risk. And using up spells to attack every enemy in a group often whittled down my SP, which required me to use up resources restoring it in anticipation of the next battle. That's why I believe boiling down systems in the way that was done does the subgenre a disservice, and is ultimately a failure to understand their appeal.
Indeed, I did, because it is why I think Anthony (and The Linear RPG are wrong and misunderstand why JRPGs can be fun. This is a direct reaction to his post, as my reaction to Ray Huling's "The Battleship Final Fantasy is a direct address to that piece. That my argument is one that is in favor of the JRPG design philosophy is irrelevant.
In any case, I'll be doing a bit of trimming.
As for "Attacking Strengths/Defending Weaknesses", did you read what you just wrote? isn't that what every single conflict in every game comes down to? Head shots, VATS, flanking, defending your artillery, closing range, the Knight piece only being able to move in "L"-patterns, attack-dodge, the QTE, recoil management, circle-strafing, rocket jumps, jumping on the head, the racing line, the "L" block, rock v. paper v. scissors, the revenge meter, presidential debates, etc. I could go on, and on, and, on.
To talk Persona 4 specifically, that the strategy tends to come down to a 1-out-of-7 choice is fine. The Autonomic Basalts I mentioned take little to no damage from my follow-up attacks, even if they were easily knocked down. As a result I had to knock them down, but waste turns attacking them individually, which kept me from ending a battle in one stroke. If they had been mixed with Daring Gigases or Dancing Hands, who often had powerful counterattacks and no particular weaknesses, taking a long time posed particular risk. And using up spells to attack every enemy in a group often whittled down my SP, which required me to use up resources restoring it in anticipation of the next battle. That's why I believe boiling down systems in the way that was done does the subgenre a disservice, and is ultimately a failure to understand their appeal.
What Xandersan said. I'm a Persona fan, but it always comes to "there's a guy, hit him with that, win battle and move on". The final fight of Persona 4 consisted of everyone using their best moves while I healed/debilitated. That's as linear of a battle as you can get.
It's not that P4 wasn't enjoyable (FUCK THAT 2HOUR INTRO RIGHT IN THE ASSHOLE), it's just that it's not all that different from other JRPGs. Strange boy comes to a town and has the power to go into TVs, conveniently so that he can save people and the world. On the way he meets (a) girl(s) and finds true love while learning about friendship. Then he fights a deity that caused all of the bad shit in the game. Roll credits.
It's not that P4 wasn't enjoyable (FUCK THAT 2HOUR INTRO RIGHT IN THE ASSHOLE), it's just that it's not all that different from other JRPGs. Strange boy comes to a town and has the power to go into TVs, conveniently so that he can save people and the world. On the way he meets (a) girl(s) and finds true love while learning about friendship. Then he fights a deity that caused all of the bad shit in the game. Roll credits.
I guess what I meant to say (without actually typing it out. Woops!) is that, no, jRPG's aren't intrinsically bad, but then why are so many of them linear, trite, and cliche?
Someday, a Japanese developer will make a unique, compelling RPG. Until then, they're just gonna copypaste old formulas from years past.
Someday, a Japanese developer will make a unique, compelling RPG. Until then, they're just gonna copypaste old formulas from years past.
"I guess what I meant to say (without actually typing it out. Woops!) is that, no, jRPG's aren't intrinsically bad, but then why are so many of them linear, trite, and cliche?"
That's not quite fair either, since you're only taking Persona 4 at face value. I'd suggest you read Leigh Alexander's excellent piece on Kotaku to help with that, or my own piece about how Persona 3 deftly applies "Fool's Journey" concept to its plotline.
Yes, individual battle strategies for individual enemies are relatively simple once a given enemy is analyzed (the support characters no longer do it for you in P4), but when taken as a whole, exploring the TV dungeons becomes a trial of resource management (do you have enough SP to continue the run?), time management (maybe I should have studied that day, I have finals coming up), and even quest management (should I revisit Kanji's dungeon, since I need 10 rough hides to finish that guy's quest, or get to visiting that other dungeon instead?).
JRPGs tend demand to be taken as a whole, which leads to more failures than successes when it comes to appealing to a player as quickly as possible, and getting the player to decide what it is he likes about the game (the better for that strength to make up for the weaknesses). Final Fantasy games try to make up for that delay between preamble and payoff with huge graphical spectacles and cutscenes.
It comes down to tolerance. Are you satisfied enough by a game/girlfriend/job's strengths that you're willing to put up with its weaknesses?
That's not quite fair either, since you're only taking Persona 4 at face value. I'd suggest you read Leigh Alexander's excellent piece on Kotaku to help with that, or my own piece about how Persona 3 deftly applies "Fool's Journey" concept to its plotline.
Yes, individual battle strategies for individual enemies are relatively simple once a given enemy is analyzed (the support characters no longer do it for you in P4), but when taken as a whole, exploring the TV dungeons becomes a trial of resource management (do you have enough SP to continue the run?), time management (maybe I should have studied that day, I have finals coming up), and even quest management (should I revisit Kanji's dungeon, since I need 10 rough hides to finish that guy's quest, or get to visiting that other dungeon instead?).
JRPGs tend demand to be taken as a whole, which leads to more failures than successes when it comes to appealing to a player as quickly as possible, and getting the player to decide what it is he likes about the game (the better for that strength to make up for the weaknesses). Final Fantasy games try to make up for that delay between preamble and payoff with huge graphical spectacles and cutscenes.
It comes down to tolerance. Are you satisfied enough by a game/girlfriend/job's strengths that you're willing to put up with its weaknesses?
Very nice read - your central point, as I see it (the weaknesses "intrinsic" to JRPGs really aren't intrinsic at all), is what most bears repeating, seeing as, when you get down to it, there is really no such thing as "intrinsic weaknesses" in any genre, just a combination of 1) overall deftness of execution on the part of the developers, and 2) personal preferences, "legitimate" and not, on the part of the players. If more people would acknowledge this, a lot of the waste-of-time "genre xyz sucks, and everyone who plays it is an idiot" excuses for "debates" would cease to pop up, and we could get back to focusing on more substantive topics that can help all types of games (and gamers) improve the overall landscape.
Hmm, I suppose talking about strengths/weaknesses was kind of simplistic of me. Maybe I don't really mean to criticise that entire idea because as you rightly point out it's pretty much fundamental behind any game with conflict. I think what I more mean is that it's a rather limited or straight-forward handling of that idea. Like the order of turns in battle is incredibly linear, aside from getting or losing extra turns there's no other factors which determine frequency of attack opportunities.
What I mean is that whilst most conflicts revolve around strengths and weaknesses, Persona 4 REALLY exaggerates that fact. Rather than say Bahamut's Lagoon where certain unit types are more effective against others, and terrain effects that effectiveness and the like. It's more about an attack being 'Repelled, Absorbed, Nullified, Partly blocked, Taken fully or extra effective (EXTRA TURN!)'. Which I guess sounds like a lot, but at the same time the context of the conflict doesn't seem to change. An encounter with Basalts is only affected by what enemies are there with it. There's very little else if anything to alter the encounter compared to even say 'Lucifers Call' (Nocturne for NA gamers), where at least the moon would affect monster behaviour.
I guess that's what I mean. Honestly I haven't had much time to put my thoughts into something coherent. Also I wanted to make a reference to Bahamut's Lagoon. Because that was fantastic.
What I mean is that whilst most conflicts revolve around strengths and weaknesses, Persona 4 REALLY exaggerates that fact. Rather than say Bahamut's Lagoon where certain unit types are more effective against others, and terrain effects that effectiveness and the like. It's more about an attack being 'Repelled, Absorbed, Nullified, Partly blocked, Taken fully or extra effective (EXTRA TURN!)'. Which I guess sounds like a lot, but at the same time the context of the conflict doesn't seem to change. An encounter with Basalts is only affected by what enemies are there with it. There's very little else if anything to alter the encounter compared to even say 'Lucifers Call' (Nocturne for NA gamers), where at least the moon would affect monster behaviour.
I guess that's what I mean. Honestly I haven't had much time to put my thoughts into something coherent. Also I wanted to make a reference to Bahamut's Lagoon. Because that was fantastic.
I could go on for a few pages, but it's a lot easier to say I agree with everything Unangbangkay has said.
@Xandersan
It's straightforward at the base level, sure, but other factors outside the battle at that. It's not just Strong/Weak either. Many enemies repel elements, others absorb them, still others just nullify them. Situations and attack opportunities are also determined by your party composition, persona mixture, persona strength. Enemies buff and debuff, and gain their own attack opportunities when they hit YOUR weaknesses.
The moon affected enemies in Persona 3, too. Crawling Tartarus on a full-moon night raised more "out-of-level" enemies, allowed unique enemies to appear, and enabled your party to crawl in spite of their condition. Crawling dungeons on rainy days in P4 did the same (though there is no more condition mechanic), but also increased the drop rate of rare materials and items.
I'm not going to lie and say Bahamut's Lagoon and Persona 4 are equally complex, as I haven't played the former. I'm going to be stupid either and say that all JRPGs are equally good or bad and that it comes down to how much you like or dislike a given game's mechanics + story mixture. It may simply be that Bahamut's Lagoon is better than Persona 4 (NEVER!). My point is that it's the result that matters, not the formula. It's not that JRPGs are bad, it's that there are a lot of bad JRPGs, just as there are a lot of bad shooters, shmups, RTSs, flight sims, MMOs, WRPGs, brawlers, minigame compilations, hack-n-slashers. It's about execution.
Don't blame the genre, blame the game.
It's straightforward at the base level, sure, but other factors outside the battle at that. It's not just Strong/Weak either. Many enemies repel elements, others absorb them, still others just nullify them. Situations and attack opportunities are also determined by your party composition, persona mixture, persona strength. Enemies buff and debuff, and gain their own attack opportunities when they hit YOUR weaknesses.
The moon affected enemies in Persona 3, too. Crawling Tartarus on a full-moon night raised more "out-of-level" enemies, allowed unique enemies to appear, and enabled your party to crawl in spite of their condition. Crawling dungeons on rainy days in P4 did the same (though there is no more condition mechanic), but also increased the drop rate of rare materials and items.
I'm not going to lie and say Bahamut's Lagoon and Persona 4 are equally complex, as I haven't played the former. I'm going to be stupid either and say that all JRPGs are equally good or bad and that it comes down to how much you like or dislike a given game's mechanics + story mixture. It may simply be that Bahamut's Lagoon is better than Persona 4 (NEVER!). My point is that it's the result that matters, not the formula. It's not that JRPGs are bad, it's that there are a lot of bad JRPGs, just as there are a lot of bad shooters, shmups, RTSs, flight sims, MMOs, WRPGs, brawlers, minigame compilations, hack-n-slashers. It's about execution.
Don't blame the genre, blame the game.
I'm enjoying Persona 3 currently, and while the battle strategy isn't the deepest (obviously, since I'm actually making progress in the game) it is there and has bitten me in the ass when I fucked up. I do agree with unangbangkay though that there are factors external to individual battles that make up the whole of strategy you use in the game.
I must say I haven't played many JRPGs I haven't liked, probably because I haven't played nearly as many as someone who is a professed junkie for them. The few I do play tend to have gotten quite a bit of acclaim, Mega Man X Command Mission excluded (but I still enjoyed that one.)
I must say I haven't played many JRPGs I haven't liked, probably because I haven't played nearly as many as someone who is a professed junkie for them. The few I do play tend to have gotten quite a bit of acclaim, Mega Man X Command Mission excluded (but I still enjoyed that one.)

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