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"Could the corset possibly represent imprisonment? What about control over her? Hate? Hatred towards women?"
Were that it would be. It's quite possible for media to feature corsets in negative tones by employing the very facts about them (distortion of the body, sexualization of the individual, representation of dominance, etc.). It would however be hypocritical to do these things which unabashedly flaunting the "virtues" of corsets to thrill and titillate. As it stands from what we know by the demo video, Bioshock Infinite seeks to use the corsets only to titillate.
Of course, we're only going on limited information - it's quite possible that in its final incarnation BI might disavow the corset/gender stereotyping/sexual objectification that we can currently gather. Personally I think that's highly unlikely. But more to the point, there's no harm in taking what we've been so surgically fed and discussing how we did or didn't like it.
It's worth noting, by the way, that the modern corsets available in shops like Victoria Secret are very little like their historical counterparts in the qualities under contention. Of course, this fact can't be used to defend Elisabeth's design if you want to advocate the "period piece" argument as the two run counter to one another. (And the period piece argument is kind of weak, considering they have airship cities, reality warping and grenade launchers.)
Were that it would be. It's quite possible for media to feature corsets in negative tones by employing the very facts about them (distortion of the body, sexualization of the individual, representation of dominance, etc.). It would however be hypocritical to do these things which unabashedly flaunting the "virtues" of corsets to thrill and titillate. As it stands from what we know by the demo video, Bioshock Infinite seeks to use the corsets only to titillate.
Of course, we're only going on limited information - it's quite possible that in its final incarnation BI might disavow the corset/gender stereotyping/sexual objectification that we can currently gather. Personally I think that's highly unlikely. But more to the point, there's no harm in taking what we've been so surgically fed and discussing how we did or didn't like it.
It's worth noting, by the way, that the modern corsets available in shops like Victoria Secret are very little like their historical counterparts in the qualities under contention. Of course, this fact can't be used to defend Elisabeth's design if you want to advocate the "period piece" argument as the two run counter to one another. (And the period piece argument is kind of weak, considering they have airship cities, reality warping and grenade launchers.)
Yeah, I remember watching something awhile back about how disfigured men would get wearing corsets. It would literally rearrange their organs over time.
I think nothing shows what men and women think about how people should look then hopping into second life. You can be almost anything you want, have whatever type of figure you want, and yet people push for the slimmest, hottest models they can manage to create and wear the clothes that give the game its nickname, "hookerville".
So how can we blame game makers when open environments like second life give good percentages of what people want to see? Is it the cause or is it the effect?
There is definitely plenty of media that I wish would tone it done a bit.
I think nothing shows what men and women think about how people should look then hopping into second life. You can be almost anything you want, have whatever type of figure you want, and yet people push for the slimmest, hottest models they can manage to create and wear the clothes that give the game its nickname, "hookerville".
So how can we blame game makers when open environments like second life give good percentages of what people want to see? Is it the cause or is it the effect?
There is definitely plenty of media that I wish would tone it done a bit.
Self-esteem and confidence! You can't judge a book by it's cover, nor can you judge a woman by the clothes she wears. There are many different opinions on what a strong female role-model should be but if she doesn't have a sense of confidence, people won't respect her the way they should. That goes the same with men. I haven't played any of the Bioshock games and only saw the early preview videos of Infinite, but I kind of get the feeling that the appearances of the characters would tie more into the setting of the game and symbology than just as simple "sexualization".
If it makes some women happy, I spent a good 45 minutes to an hour trying to make a really cute red-headed female pyromancer in Dark Souls only to then come to the realization minutes later that I was going to be spending vasts amounts of my time in hollow form >__< Not that the game allows you to make attractive characters regardless of their sex hahaha! Also the "coke-addicted model" look is not attractive ladies! If it looks like a sneeze could break you, I fear for your health.
If it makes some women happy, I spent a good 45 minutes to an hour trying to make a really cute red-headed female pyromancer in Dark Souls only to then come to the realization minutes later that I was going to be spending vasts amounts of my time in hollow form >__< Not that the game allows you to make attractive characters regardless of their sex hahaha! Also the "coke-addicted model" look is not attractive ladies! If it looks like a sneeze could break you, I fear for your health.
If you consider the self-esteem issue, that leaves us with the actual characterization of Elizabeth. Why does she wear the corset and dress the way she does? Does she wear it because of the appropriateness of the era? Because she likes it? Because it's the only way she knows how to dress (Let's face it, she is being imprisoned)?
To my understanding, many women wore corsets unwillingly back then due to their mothers wanting them to conform to society's image of women. Does Elizabeth dress herself that way or is it the only way she knows how to dress?
I'm willing to give Elizabeth the benefit of the doubt considering our knowledge at this point. She isn't overtly sexualized, at least not as sexualized as other female leads.
To my understanding, many women wore corsets unwillingly back then due to their mothers wanting them to conform to society's image of women. Does Elizabeth dress herself that way or is it the only way she knows how to dress?
I'm willing to give Elizabeth the benefit of the doubt considering our knowledge at this point. She isn't overtly sexualized, at least not as sexualized as other female leads.
Your citation of facts and history is inconvenient to the arguments that Elizabeth's corset is sexist!
It really does bother me that people will cast out and disregard any inconvenient truth if it doesn't help their argument, which the likes of Sophie Prell will do and do so preemptively because they don't really want to research of fact check.
Its pretty clear that Elizabeth is a character on the run, in setting reminiscent of the Civil War (and watch people argue that point because they think that war was simply over slavery when there as more to it than that). You have the Founders and the Vox Populi fighting each other and Booker and Elizabeth caught in the middle. From a story standpoint, they seem to be a bit loot happy and Elizabeth being on the run probably picked out something she liked quickly before moving on.
Is she a caged bird. Well, its pretty clear her psyche is scarred fro a prior imprisonment. Her expressive eyes communicate a great deal of terror and anguish. She's been a prisoner before and that a giant mechanical bird seeks to return her to that seems to imply a caged bird scenario more than her corset.
Its also worth noting that aside from her clothes, her hairstyle and lack of caked-on make-up imply a very contemporary look when contrasted against the women of the period. Shorter hair, just some blush, eyeliner and mascara, really. I don't know where she'd find the time, but it is simple and straightforward.
Finally, in a setting that goes from bright whites to darkened environments, the blue and white dress offers a contrast that helps her stand out in both kinds of backgrounds. I think much of her design has to do with the fact she needs to stand out apart from the chaos - her design and her powers both push her in that direction so you'll never have any question about where and who she is.
Misogyny is dumb, but so are its other friends misandry, racism and homo/transphobia. Before people attack something as one of these things they should strive to learn what these things mean and why they're wrong. Casting judgement on history or those that want to be faithful to historical or mythological source material isn't progressive, its close-minded.
It really does bother me that people will cast out and disregard any inconvenient truth if it doesn't help their argument, which the likes of Sophie Prell will do and do so preemptively because they don't really want to research of fact check.
Its pretty clear that Elizabeth is a character on the run, in setting reminiscent of the Civil War (and watch people argue that point because they think that war was simply over slavery when there as more to it than that). You have the Founders and the Vox Populi fighting each other and Booker and Elizabeth caught in the middle. From a story standpoint, they seem to be a bit loot happy and Elizabeth being on the run probably picked out something she liked quickly before moving on.
Is she a caged bird. Well, its pretty clear her psyche is scarred fro a prior imprisonment. Her expressive eyes communicate a great deal of terror and anguish. She's been a prisoner before and that a giant mechanical bird seeks to return her to that seems to imply a caged bird scenario more than her corset.
Its also worth noting that aside from her clothes, her hairstyle and lack of caked-on make-up imply a very contemporary look when contrasted against the women of the period. Shorter hair, just some blush, eyeliner and mascara, really. I don't know where she'd find the time, but it is simple and straightforward.
Finally, in a setting that goes from bright whites to darkened environments, the blue and white dress offers a contrast that helps her stand out in both kinds of backgrounds. I think much of her design has to do with the fact she needs to stand out apart from the chaos - her design and her powers both push her in that direction so you'll never have any question about where and who she is.
Misogyny is dumb, but so are its other friends misandry, racism and homo/transphobia. Before people attack something as one of these things they should strive to learn what these things mean and why they're wrong. Casting judgement on history or those that want to be faithful to historical or mythological source material isn't progressive, its close-minded.
@TSP
"Your citation of facts and history is inconvenient to the arguments that Elizabeth's corset is sexist!
"It really does bother me that people will cast out and disregard any inconvenient truth if it doesn't help their argument, which the likes of Sophie Prell will do and do so preemptively because they don't really want to research of fact check."
What "truths" are being disregarded out of inconvenience?
"Your citation of facts and history is inconvenient to the arguments that Elizabeth's corset is sexist!
"It really does bother me that people will cast out and disregard any inconvenient truth if it doesn't help their argument, which the likes of Sophie Prell will do and do so preemptively because they don't really want to research of fact check."
What "truths" are being disregarded out of inconvenience?
Thanks for presenting another point of view!
I have to agree - I don't think we can judge Elizabeth's character by a corset alone. The Bioshock team has always paid a lot of attention to examining and cultivating the relationships between characters in each game - between your character and Fontaine, between your character and the Little Sisters, between your character and Eleanor - they work hard to make you feel connected to and invested in the fate of each character.
Without more information, we're just guessing blindly - you could make the judgement that Bioshock 2 was a game about murdering children and wrapping screaming women up in wetsuits, judging by looks alone.
And if she ends up being a mindless "princess to rescue," I'll be pretty disappointed, but that would definitely add weight to the notion that her outfit is a symbol of a poor attitude towards women. But it's too early to make that claim.
I have to agree - I don't think we can judge Elizabeth's character by a corset alone. The Bioshock team has always paid a lot of attention to examining and cultivating the relationships between characters in each game - between your character and Fontaine, between your character and the Little Sisters, between your character and Eleanor - they work hard to make you feel connected to and invested in the fate of each character.
Without more information, we're just guessing blindly - you could make the judgement that Bioshock 2 was a game about murdering children and wrapping screaming women up in wetsuits, judging by looks alone.
And if she ends up being a mindless "princess to rescue," I'll be pretty disappointed, but that would definitely add weight to the notion that her outfit is a symbol of a poor attitude towards women. But it's too early to make that claim.
For me personally, it's not the fact that she's wearing a corset... corsets have long been with us as fashion... it's the 10" waist that Elizabeth is shown with. It just seems that the devs could very easily have retained the style but given her a slightly healthier waistline that didn't go with the "tightlace" unhealthy body modification of that era.
It will be interesting if the imagery does actually tie into the story, but it doesn't really matter that much. Lara Croft has a wonderfully strong female character, but her sexpot designed-for-men body has to a large degree outshone her other less obvious assets. I suspect the same will be true for Elizabeth, which is a shame. The devs could so easily have made other choices... simple design choices that maintained a distinctive character without making a mockery of the female form. :(
It will be interesting if the imagery does actually tie into the story, but it doesn't really matter that much. Lara Croft has a wonderfully strong female character, but her sexpot designed-for-men body has to a large degree outshone her other less obvious assets. I suspect the same will be true for Elizabeth, which is a shame. The devs could so easily have made other choices... simple design choices that maintained a distinctive character without making a mockery of the female form. :(
Excellent blog.
The FemShep debate was the absolute worst bunch of probing, overblown nonsense I never imagined I would see. It's crazy to me that, before this game is even out, people are already ripping apart the aesthetic style of Elizabeth apart for showing some cleavage.
As far as the ten inch waist thing, it doesn't seem to be a sexual issue at all. Bioshock has always had sort of deformed looking caricatures meant probably to inspire an uncomfortable feeling at all. If anything, the use of the corset in such a way is probably to emphasize the insidious nature of such a device, and to make people feel uneasy. It looks creepy and odd FAR more than it does ANY kind of sexy, so if I were to take an uneducated guess at this point, that is my personal view on why they chose that specific imagery to portray the character in question. Not so much for the sex value, but more for the tongue in cheek satire.
I don't think it is a mockery of the female form as much as it is a mockery of our inherent IMAGE of the female form. I might be totally wrong here, and they are just trying to sex their shit up; but then again, we all might be, and that is sort of the point.
The FemShep debate was the absolute worst bunch of probing, overblown nonsense I never imagined I would see. It's crazy to me that, before this game is even out, people are already ripping apart the aesthetic style of Elizabeth apart for showing some cleavage.
As far as the ten inch waist thing, it doesn't seem to be a sexual issue at all. Bioshock has always had sort of deformed looking caricatures meant probably to inspire an uncomfortable feeling at all. If anything, the use of the corset in such a way is probably to emphasize the insidious nature of such a device, and to make people feel uneasy. It looks creepy and odd FAR more than it does ANY kind of sexy, so if I were to take an uneducated guess at this point, that is my personal view on why they chose that specific imagery to portray the character in question. Not so much for the sex value, but more for the tongue in cheek satire.
I don't think it is a mockery of the female form as much as it is a mockery of our inherent IMAGE of the female form. I might be totally wrong here, and they are just trying to sex their shit up; but then again, we all might be, and that is sort of the point.
See, when I see a waist that narrow, it actually looks a little bit morbid to me. Artistically, I think they're trying for bit of gothic appeal in that, contrasting the notions of consumptive sickness or starvation with otherwise striking or pretty features. I don't think they went for that design with "sex appeal" as their primary motivation. I think they wanted to make her look like she might break in half, to increase the notion that she is vulnerable and that you need to protect her.
BUT, I do think it is relevant to look at this as an aspect of a disturbing trend in fashion and society. Elsa's absolutely right that models are getting skinnier and skinnier - soon they'll be nothing but giant heads with big eyes on skeleton bodies. "Heroin chic" is not really something you want a kid to aspire to - it's a dark look, and it comes from a place of self-hate and self-abuse. Bioshock has always been morbid and creepy - and it's within a parent's right to think that a kid shouldn't be exposed to that thought process until they're ready. As a supporting example, it's really easy to find a lot of fanart and cosplay of Elizabeth already, before the game's even out. This goes a long way towards supporting the point that younger people might be taking away and venerating the wrong things.
I support their decision to give her a distinct, visually arresting look. I think she stands out from the current crop of game heroines, rather than blending in. But I also support the notion that you might not want your kids idolizing her look.
BUT, I do think it is relevant to look at this as an aspect of a disturbing trend in fashion and society. Elsa's absolutely right that models are getting skinnier and skinnier - soon they'll be nothing but giant heads with big eyes on skeleton bodies. "Heroin chic" is not really something you want a kid to aspire to - it's a dark look, and it comes from a place of self-hate and self-abuse. Bioshock has always been morbid and creepy - and it's within a parent's right to think that a kid shouldn't be exposed to that thought process until they're ready. As a supporting example, it's really easy to find a lot of fanart and cosplay of Elizabeth already, before the game's even out. This goes a long way towards supporting the point that younger people might be taking away and venerating the wrong things.
I support their decision to give her a distinct, visually arresting look. I think she stands out from the current crop of game heroines, rather than blending in. But I also support the notion that you might not want your kids idolizing her look.
I only noticed Elizabeth's sad, pleading eyes until someone pointed out her chest. Then I looked at it, shrugged and went back to looking at her eyes cause they are much more interesting than her chest.
@Stephen Beirne - There's nothing wrong with talking about what we've seen so far, and I have nothing against people talking about how they do or don't like Elizabeth's clothing. The trouble is, it's not just talk of how she shouldn't have been drawn with emphasis on her boobs, or how skinny she is, etc. etc. Right away there's a big commotion of some hidden message of misogyny or a slight hint of BDSM without having all the information laid out. When we base our judgement like that then how are we any better than say.. Fox News? I mean think about it.
I know that the modern day corsets are nothing like those of the Victorian era, but they still serve the same purpose - to achieve a certain look. My main point is we're not being forced into looking that way. Some women choose to tight-lace their corsets back then for a slimmer waist because they thought it looked sexy, and some women like to dress in a corset now to look sexy.There isn't any force going on, thus to call misogyny when you bring up corsets is quite the stretch.
@Jack The Ripper - Attractive people are noticed and treated better than non-attractive people. We're told this on a day to day basis, so of course people want to portray themselves as being attractive when joining a virtual community such as Second Life where they have the anonymity to do so.
@CelicaCrazed - I wonder.. how many people, if given the option, would create their character to be heavy? What about having a beer gut? How many women would create a character who had a small bust and big hips? And like you stated - everyone has a different opinion. What is this realistic female figure everyone wants? I can assure you not everyone will agree. So are we going to go after every female game character that doesn't meet our standards?
@StriderHoang - For a period of time all women had were corsets. They didn't have the luxury of bras and what not back then. Maybe it's the only choice Elizabeth has, but we don't know, yet. :)
@The Silent Protagonist - If I wanted to I could take any game and over think certain aspects of it, twist it into something that's not really there, or that the artist didn't intend. Now sometimes an artist does add subtle details to go along with an overall message they're trying to deliver. The thing is, we don't know the whole story. Once we know the entire story, we can go back and pick out small details and make judgments. Everything you noted could be correct. But again, it's too early to know.
@fulldamage - I know a few people who believed Bioshock was about killing children. I also know a person who linked the game with pedophilia. Go figure.
@Elsa - I worry that in our quest to have females represented in more appropriate ways, that our voices will become mute if we go after every game featuring one that we don't like. I guess I look at the whole Elizabeth ordeal as crying wolf. What is the direction to go to make everyone happy? Can it be done?
@TheManChild - Yeah, the whole femshep thing really annoyed me, to be honest. Sad thing is I doubt they would have made everyone happy if they'd just choose one without taking a poll. I think it was a no win situation for them.
@fulldamage - Most of the cosplay of Elizabeth has been quite respectful and well done compared to cosplay of other game characters. But as far as kids idolizing anything/anyone, parents need to take an interest in what their children see and do.
Thanks for the comments!
I know that the modern day corsets are nothing like those of the Victorian era, but they still serve the same purpose - to achieve a certain look. My main point is we're not being forced into looking that way. Some women choose to tight-lace their corsets back then for a slimmer waist because they thought it looked sexy, and some women like to dress in a corset now to look sexy.There isn't any force going on, thus to call misogyny when you bring up corsets is quite the stretch.
@Jack The Ripper - Attractive people are noticed and treated better than non-attractive people. We're told this on a day to day basis, so of course people want to portray themselves as being attractive when joining a virtual community such as Second Life where they have the anonymity to do so.
@CelicaCrazed - I wonder.. how many people, if given the option, would create their character to be heavy? What about having a beer gut? How many women would create a character who had a small bust and big hips? And like you stated - everyone has a different opinion. What is this realistic female figure everyone wants? I can assure you not everyone will agree. So are we going to go after every female game character that doesn't meet our standards?
@StriderHoang - For a period of time all women had were corsets. They didn't have the luxury of bras and what not back then. Maybe it's the only choice Elizabeth has, but we don't know, yet. :)
@The Silent Protagonist - If I wanted to I could take any game and over think certain aspects of it, twist it into something that's not really there, or that the artist didn't intend. Now sometimes an artist does add subtle details to go along with an overall message they're trying to deliver. The thing is, we don't know the whole story. Once we know the entire story, we can go back and pick out small details and make judgments. Everything you noted could be correct. But again, it's too early to know.
@fulldamage - I know a few people who believed Bioshock was about killing children. I also know a person who linked the game with pedophilia. Go figure.
@Elsa - I worry that in our quest to have females represented in more appropriate ways, that our voices will become mute if we go after every game featuring one that we don't like. I guess I look at the whole Elizabeth ordeal as crying wolf. What is the direction to go to make everyone happy? Can it be done?
@TheManChild - Yeah, the whole femshep thing really annoyed me, to be honest. Sad thing is I doubt they would have made everyone happy if they'd just choose one without taking a poll. I think it was a no win situation for them.
@fulldamage - Most of the cosplay of Elizabeth has been quite respectful and well done compared to cosplay of other game characters. But as far as kids idolizing anything/anyone, parents need to take an interest in what their children see and do.
Thanks for the comments!
@Jaded
"Right away there's a big commotion of some hidden message of misogyny or a slight hint of BDSM without having all the information laid out. When we base our judgement like that then how are we any better than say.. Fox News? I mean think about it."
As it stands, we're discussing the marketing material; nobody's making universal statements about the final product. We're talking about information that we have and at the very worst speculating on the final game. Given that we have all this information that was designed to market the game, should we be expected to simply not think about it and examine it?
Many people have already defended Elizabeth on the basis that it's Irrational Games' project and they are entitled to make what they want and market it as they wish without being held accountable for any possible negative connotations within their material - that is Fox News mentality, right there.
"I know that the modern day corsets are nothing like those of the Victorian era, but they still serve the same purpose - to achieve a certain look. My main point is we're not being forced into looking that way. Some women choose to tight-lace their corsets back then for a slimmer waist because they thought it looked sexy, and some women like to dress in a corset now to look sexy.There isn't any force going on, thus to call misogyny when you bring up corsets is quite the stretch."
That's a somewhat disingenuous assertion. Certainly we're not being forced into clothing as women were way back when, but society still exerts incredible pressure on the psyche of individuals. Unrealistic beauty standards are still the done thing, espoused by the media and by the social subconsciousness. While it's semantically true that many women choose to undergo plastic surgery to suit these standards, you must consider the force that societies inflict so that these types of decisions arise in the first place. When it becomes a trend for women to seek externally-born beauty through external intervention out of seemingly internal cognitive and emotional processes, you have to start wondering how these processes are coming into being en mass. It's a social phenomenon.
At any rate, in my view the misogyny at play here is in the mind of the developers and marketers who think this is a perfect way to represent a female character. The presence of a corset is just a grim symbol of everything else going on. (And to be honest, either that corset is of the old, body-distorting variety or Elizabeth has a warped and distorted body shape by design - neither is good.)
Regarding "Some women choose to tight-lace their corsets back then for a slimmer waist because they thought it looked sexy", Elizabeth is not one such woman. Elizabeth was constructed by a design team to appeal to an audience, not to her own personal tastes. Her appeal in this regard is sexual, hence the use of the corsets and her teeny tiny waist. Compare her to pictures of Tenenbaum from Bioshock 1 for a good contrast within the same art style.
It's a bizarre argument to say that "maybe she likes those clothes" - somebody else here has made the same point, I can't remember who - because it's inferring existential qualities into a thing that has no existential being. Within the fiction it might be fine to argue as such (when talking about consistent fiction or narrative, for instance) but not when we're talking about the effects media has on society.
"Right away there's a big commotion of some hidden message of misogyny or a slight hint of BDSM without having all the information laid out. When we base our judgement like that then how are we any better than say.. Fox News? I mean think about it."
As it stands, we're discussing the marketing material; nobody's making universal statements about the final product. We're talking about information that we have and at the very worst speculating on the final game. Given that we have all this information that was designed to market the game, should we be expected to simply not think about it and examine it?
Many people have already defended Elizabeth on the basis that it's Irrational Games' project and they are entitled to make what they want and market it as they wish without being held accountable for any possible negative connotations within their material - that is Fox News mentality, right there.
"I know that the modern day corsets are nothing like those of the Victorian era, but they still serve the same purpose - to achieve a certain look. My main point is we're not being forced into looking that way. Some women choose to tight-lace their corsets back then for a slimmer waist because they thought it looked sexy, and some women like to dress in a corset now to look sexy.There isn't any force going on, thus to call misogyny when you bring up corsets is quite the stretch."
That's a somewhat disingenuous assertion. Certainly we're not being forced into clothing as women were way back when, but society still exerts incredible pressure on the psyche of individuals. Unrealistic beauty standards are still the done thing, espoused by the media and by the social subconsciousness. While it's semantically true that many women choose to undergo plastic surgery to suit these standards, you must consider the force that societies inflict so that these types of decisions arise in the first place. When it becomes a trend for women to seek externally-born beauty through external intervention out of seemingly internal cognitive and emotional processes, you have to start wondering how these processes are coming into being en mass. It's a social phenomenon.
At any rate, in my view the misogyny at play here is in the mind of the developers and marketers who think this is a perfect way to represent a female character. The presence of a corset is just a grim symbol of everything else going on. (And to be honest, either that corset is of the old, body-distorting variety or Elizabeth has a warped and distorted body shape by design - neither is good.)
Regarding "Some women choose to tight-lace their corsets back then for a slimmer waist because they thought it looked sexy", Elizabeth is not one such woman. Elizabeth was constructed by a design team to appeal to an audience, not to her own personal tastes. Her appeal in this regard is sexual, hence the use of the corsets and her teeny tiny waist. Compare her to pictures of Tenenbaum from Bioshock 1 for a good contrast within the same art style.
It's a bizarre argument to say that "maybe she likes those clothes" - somebody else here has made the same point, I can't remember who - because it's inferring existential qualities into a thing that has no existential being. Within the fiction it might be fine to argue as such (when talking about consistent fiction or narrative, for instance) but not when we're talking about the effects media has on society.
@Stephen Beirne
Very well stated. Let me do my "devil's advocate" bit though. ^_^
A healthy amount of cynicism is a good thing, but optimally, a character design doesn't always start like a bad hollywood blockbuster, where you've got some guys in a room going, "What's hot? What's gonna sell? I'm thinking we start with a chick, a sexy chick." Sometimes that happens, especially when a publisher starts with a license or property and hires a development team at random to build what they want - then the character design does arise out of "meta" or marketing reasons.
In better scenarios, however, the initial character design is something that is done with primary attention to those "within the fiction" justifications - they build a character from the artist or writer's initial inspiration, with primary attention to questions like "Are these the clothes that are available in this time period? Is this what the character is allowed to wear, or likes to wear? Will she be clearly visible when the surrounding environments are busy and filled with effects? What does the outfit say about her character?" They try to maintain the integrity of the vision they have for the world they're creating as a primary concern.
I can't speculate as to what the relationship between 2K and Irrational is like, nor how they might have arrived at Elizabeth's final design. Point being, I don't think it's necessarily off-base to raise the question of whether her design might be driven primarily by those narrative justifications. With respect, the notion that the developer thinks that "this is the perfect way to represent a female character" is an assumption. They think that "this is the perfect way to represent THIS character," that is our only actual given. Knowing the game's storyline and narrative will give us further insight into whether or not the creators are RAISING THE QUESTION of why Elizabeth would be dressed this way, or CHAMPIONING her choice of dress. And that is relevant to the conversation. It's too easy to conflate "showing something" with "supporting something," and that is where I think Jaded is drawing the Fox News parallel from.
To be honest, I don't claim to have a fully resolved or consistent point of view on this topic. At a baseline, I do believe that people should general try to inspire each other to be better. And any producer of mass-market media should know that they DO influence a lot of people, and this carries with it a certain amount of responsibility. At the same time, I'd hate to see a world in which all our influences have become whitewashed and sanitized, and all main characters are paragons to be admired. Characters don't always need to be role models. In fact, I identify better with the ones that are just the opposite.
Very well stated. Let me do my "devil's advocate" bit though. ^_^
A healthy amount of cynicism is a good thing, but optimally, a character design doesn't always start like a bad hollywood blockbuster, where you've got some guys in a room going, "What's hot? What's gonna sell? I'm thinking we start with a chick, a sexy chick." Sometimes that happens, especially when a publisher starts with a license or property and hires a development team at random to build what they want - then the character design does arise out of "meta" or marketing reasons.
In better scenarios, however, the initial character design is something that is done with primary attention to those "within the fiction" justifications - they build a character from the artist or writer's initial inspiration, with primary attention to questions like "Are these the clothes that are available in this time period? Is this what the character is allowed to wear, or likes to wear? Will she be clearly visible when the surrounding environments are busy and filled with effects? What does the outfit say about her character?" They try to maintain the integrity of the vision they have for the world they're creating as a primary concern.
I can't speculate as to what the relationship between 2K and Irrational is like, nor how they might have arrived at Elizabeth's final design. Point being, I don't think it's necessarily off-base to raise the question of whether her design might be driven primarily by those narrative justifications. With respect, the notion that the developer thinks that "this is the perfect way to represent a female character" is an assumption. They think that "this is the perfect way to represent THIS character," that is our only actual given. Knowing the game's storyline and narrative will give us further insight into whether or not the creators are RAISING THE QUESTION of why Elizabeth would be dressed this way, or CHAMPIONING her choice of dress. And that is relevant to the conversation. It's too easy to conflate "showing something" with "supporting something," and that is where I think Jaded is drawing the Fox News parallel from.
To be honest, I don't claim to have a fully resolved or consistent point of view on this topic. At a baseline, I do believe that people should general try to inspire each other to be better. And any producer of mass-market media should know that they DO influence a lot of people, and this carries with it a certain amount of responsibility. At the same time, I'd hate to see a world in which all our influences have become whitewashed and sanitized, and all main characters are paragons to be admired. Characters don't always need to be role models. In fact, I identify better with the ones that are just the opposite.
@Stephen - Unfortunately at this moment I can only respond briefly to your last comment, as work dictates and I have to be up in 4 hours. :( Yes, the media has a strong influence on how we dress, and it certainly makes some girls feel pressured into doing drastic things like plastic surgery. But nobody's making anyone change their appearance or dress a certain way, and that's where I drew the remark of we're not being forced into anything. Influencing and forcing are two different things. Does that make it any less harmful? No. But by saying that a developer thinking it's alright to represent a female character this way is hatred of women, that's still stretching things a bit far, IMO. Business choice on what will sell, following the latest trends, Yes.
And fulldamage hit it on the nose of where I was going with the Fox News remark. There are some very good points raised by everyone, and I wish I had more time tonight to respond to both of your comments in more detail.
And fulldamage hit it on the nose of where I was going with the Fox News remark. There are some very good points raised by everyone, and I wish I had more time tonight to respond to both of your comments in more detail.
@Stephen - Go back to Sophie's article when the main site is back up. Note how Sophie is all too eager to try to dismiss any counterpoint before that counterpoint can be followed to its logical conclusion.
Drawing on mythology or history doesn't mean much if you don't lend some sense of authenticity. And getting incensed about a nude mod that would have happened anyway beyond anyone's control is just stupid.
Drawing on mythology or history doesn't mean much if you don't lend some sense of authenticity. And getting incensed about a nude mod that would have happened anyway beyond anyone's control is just stupid.
@TSP
Wasn't Sophie writing about Skyrim? I don't believe her article had anything to do with any of the articles centring around Elizabeth.
@Jaded
"But by saying that a developer thinking it's alright to represent a female character this way is hatred of women, that's still stretching things a bit far, IMO. Business choice on what will sell, following the latest trends, Yes."
The thing is that these trends and these selling points are misogynistic. Companies are hardly considered not responsible for their actions on the basis of profitability or 'good business'.
@fulldamage
You raise a very good point and it's one I'm well aware of. The problem of constructing a character to be consistent to the initial design vision, in this case, is that Elizabeth adheres to a silly and misogynistic gender stereotype - some cross between a manic pixie dream girl and a Disney princess. Of course, the issue then is that her character is formed through an antiquated and unflattering perception of women, even though it may be consistent within the fiction. Bear in mind we're only going off and talking about the material we already have, although I'd hazard to guess her character won't change much in the final product - at the very least, we can criticize the Elizabeth that we've been hitherto given.
Even if you're not willing to get into that line of examination, you must also consider the tone of what is being shown. As you rightly say, showing something is not the same as supporting it - to explore whether the thing is supported, you have to consider how it is represented. In the case of Elizabeth, it seems very clear to me that her visual design is constructed to appeal to the audience in a largely sexual manner. Her bobble head, tiny waist, saucer-sized eyes, fragile physique etc. It's certainly no mistake that the corset pushes up her already-oversized boobs and exposes her cleavage so that it takes up half the screen. And I don't think this is done apologetically or with remorse.
In my experience, when people criticize the representation of women in video games it is seldom a contention of there being a shortage of role models, unless clearly specified. The same is true regarding Elizabeth. In general, we're not looking for an increase of morally good female characters, we're looking for better quality female characters - a breaking away from the gender stereotyped, sexually objectified mold. That certainly doesn't require a whitewashing or homogenization of writing in games.
Wasn't Sophie writing about Skyrim? I don't believe her article had anything to do with any of the articles centring around Elizabeth.
@Jaded
"But by saying that a developer thinking it's alright to represent a female character this way is hatred of women, that's still stretching things a bit far, IMO. Business choice on what will sell, following the latest trends, Yes."
The thing is that these trends and these selling points are misogynistic. Companies are hardly considered not responsible for their actions on the basis of profitability or 'good business'.
@fulldamage
You raise a very good point and it's one I'm well aware of. The problem of constructing a character to be consistent to the initial design vision, in this case, is that Elizabeth adheres to a silly and misogynistic gender stereotype - some cross between a manic pixie dream girl and a Disney princess. Of course, the issue then is that her character is formed through an antiquated and unflattering perception of women, even though it may be consistent within the fiction. Bear in mind we're only going off and talking about the material we already have, although I'd hazard to guess her character won't change much in the final product - at the very least, we can criticize the Elizabeth that we've been hitherto given.
Even if you're not willing to get into that line of examination, you must also consider the tone of what is being shown. As you rightly say, showing something is not the same as supporting it - to explore whether the thing is supported, you have to consider how it is represented. In the case of Elizabeth, it seems very clear to me that her visual design is constructed to appeal to the audience in a largely sexual manner. Her bobble head, tiny waist, saucer-sized eyes, fragile physique etc. It's certainly no mistake that the corset pushes up her already-oversized boobs and exposes her cleavage so that it takes up half the screen. And I don't think this is done apologetically or with remorse.
In my experience, when people criticize the representation of women in video games it is seldom a contention of there being a shortage of role models, unless clearly specified. The same is true regarding Elizabeth. In general, we're not looking for an increase of morally good female characters, we're looking for better quality female characters - a breaking away from the gender stereotyped, sexually objectified mold. That certainly doesn't require a whitewashing or homogenization of writing in games.
@Occams
THIS. Like I wrote on Elsa's blog, to me the trailers or screenshots released thus far aren't selling Elizabeth as some kind of sexpot. She doesn't bend over, act cute, strike sexy poses, and I doubt her tits will be on the front cover. She's naive but not in the sexed up anime girl way. She's like Hanna from the film that came out last year. Elizabeth is discovering the outside world for the first time and it's a fun, scary, dangerous and exciting place for her to explore.
I wonder, are the allegations of sexism and misogyny more of a reaction to the fanbase going nuts over her boobs than to the intent of the devs? Bioshock Infinite marketing materials have been available for months but the uproar only begins now? Not that you have to call someone out immediately for your opinion to be valid, but I have to wonder if fans weren't missing the point by focusing on the tits if we'd even be having this discussion. But hey, maybe Irrational shot themselves in the foot by not covering her up more. Maybe she is meant to titillate and the boob hungry fans are reacting appropriately.
THIS. Like I wrote on Elsa's blog, to me the trailers or screenshots released thus far aren't selling Elizabeth as some kind of sexpot. She doesn't bend over, act cute, strike sexy poses, and I doubt her tits will be on the front cover. She's naive but not in the sexed up anime girl way. She's like Hanna from the film that came out last year. Elizabeth is discovering the outside world for the first time and it's a fun, scary, dangerous and exciting place for her to explore.
I wonder, are the allegations of sexism and misogyny more of a reaction to the fanbase going nuts over her boobs than to the intent of the devs? Bioshock Infinite marketing materials have been available for months but the uproar only begins now? Not that you have to call someone out immediately for your opinion to be valid, but I have to wonder if fans weren't missing the point by focusing on the tits if we'd even be having this discussion. But hey, maybe Irrational shot themselves in the foot by not covering her up more. Maybe she is meant to titillate and the boob hungry fans are reacting appropriately.
And by acting appropriately I mean they are getting out of it what was intended all along. If that's the case then I think that's unfortunate. There's nothing wrong with a character being sexy, and I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with titillation either, but I hope Irrational isn't purposefully sending mixed messages because that would betray the character they've obviously spent a great deal of time building.
Just a thought, but I don’t think I’ve heard anyone mention that they actually find Elizabeth attractive now that I think about it.
I’m not sure why I feel that’s worth mentioning, but, there it is.
I’m not sure why I feel that’s worth mentioning, but, there it is.
Elizabeth was constructed by a design team to appeal to an audience, not to her own personal tastes. Her appeal in this regard is sexual, hence the use of the corsets and her teeny tiny waist.
The thing is that these trends and these selling points are misogynistic. Companies are hardly considered not responsible for their actions on the basis of profitability or 'good business'.
@Stephen - Again, you're going with the theory that the design team intended Elizabeth to be sexualy appealing. A far cry from Tenenbaum, yes. But Tenenbaum was someone you didn't know in Bioshock, someone who you may not be able to trust. From what we've seen of Elizabeth you're suppose to want to help her, to trust her. She appears to me as a helpless girl who acts more childish than sexual, and we've already had a glimpse of the power she has. Has she been held back from this power or is it she hasn't learned herself how to control it? From the trailers I'd say the latter. So is she really this helpless trustworthy figure we're being led to believe? And her boobs aren't really that oversized.
@garethxxgod - I look forward to it. ;)
@kidplus - That's the thing - we don't know yet.
@Handy - Good point you've brought up. There's been a heck of a lot of talk about her boobs and small waist, but I don't believe I've heard anyone mention they've found her sexy, either.
The thing is that these trends and these selling points are misogynistic. Companies are hardly considered not responsible for their actions on the basis of profitability or 'good business'.
@Stephen - Again, you're going with the theory that the design team intended Elizabeth to be sexualy appealing. A far cry from Tenenbaum, yes. But Tenenbaum was someone you didn't know in Bioshock, someone who you may not be able to trust. From what we've seen of Elizabeth you're suppose to want to help her, to trust her. She appears to me as a helpless girl who acts more childish than sexual, and we've already had a glimpse of the power she has. Has she been held back from this power or is it she hasn't learned herself how to control it? From the trailers I'd say the latter. So is she really this helpless trustworthy figure we're being led to believe? And her boobs aren't really that oversized.
@garethxxgod - I look forward to it. ;)
@kidplus - That's the thing - we don't know yet.
@Handy - Good point you've brought up. There's been a heck of a lot of talk about her boobs and small waist, but I don't believe I've heard anyone mention they've found her sexy, either.
@Jaded, Handy - I definitely get more of a "helpless waif" vibe from Elizabeth, not a sexual one. However, it is entirely possible that 13-year-old me might have formed an insta-crush on her, if this game had come out a couple of decades ago. You know, back when I wasn't sure what actual boobs looked like. ^_^
@SB - I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one - but you made me examine my position very closely, and I want to thank you for that.
I don't think your points are easily dismissed - there's a lot of truth to them and I think a lot of people would agree with you. But what I do think is that it's too reductive for me to align my viewpoint with. It's hypercritical. I could take that argument and use it to say that, if any videogame character is ever in high heels, then they are contributing to a type of clothing that is restrictive, demeaning, and designed for the male gaze, and that the designer's attitude is supporting an entrenched, societal hatred of women. I could say that about any character wearing a bra.
Viewed through this lens, basically there is no reason for any fashion design to be depicted if, at any time in its history or at its origin, there were unhealthy reasons for it to exist. It's useful to know what these influences are and where they come from, but I draw the line at thinking that this should be the primary concern in character design.
To create another example - take superhero comics, or superheroes in general. All superheroine outfits are, almost entirely and categorically, designed for the male gaze, and comics have long been a stronghold of chauvinistic attitudes. If you stop the argument there, you end up with, "All superheroines are evidence of a damaging hatred or other-ing of women."
But I prefer to take the long view. If you talk to female comics fans, you'll find out that many of them do or have idolized certain heroines that absolutely look a bit trashy. They don't all just decide to get plastic surgery or become strippers, though. Many of them go forward in life, having idolized a Catwoman or a Supergirl, and they find themselves thinking about how to act more heroically. How to right wrongs or stand up against injustice. For some of them, just knowing that superheroines exist and can do the same things as male superheroes is empowering.
Others might grow up enough to see how limited some of those concepts are, and it might lead them to read better, deeper comic books or actual books, or even to write or draw their own comics that are much more meaningful, positive, sensible, thought-provoking, and admirable than the material they started with. But that would never have happened if they weren't initially captivated by those superheroines, and the fact that their costumes and physiques are striking and attention-getting - regardless of the fact that they're unrealistic and designed to be eye candy.
In other words, I think it's a mistake to take an aspect of a character's look in isolation, and extrapolate from that the creator has a negative attitude that is the primary factor in creating the look, and that the primary consequence will be reinforcing negative attitudes in the audience. The history of an article of clothing is an important aspect of fashion, and it carries certain implicit meanings with it, but it's not the totality.
@SB - I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one - but you made me examine my position very closely, and I want to thank you for that.
I don't think your points are easily dismissed - there's a lot of truth to them and I think a lot of people would agree with you. But what I do think is that it's too reductive for me to align my viewpoint with. It's hypercritical. I could take that argument and use it to say that, if any videogame character is ever in high heels, then they are contributing to a type of clothing that is restrictive, demeaning, and designed for the male gaze, and that the designer's attitude is supporting an entrenched, societal hatred of women. I could say that about any character wearing a bra.
Viewed through this lens, basically there is no reason for any fashion design to be depicted if, at any time in its history or at its origin, there were unhealthy reasons for it to exist. It's useful to know what these influences are and where they come from, but I draw the line at thinking that this should be the primary concern in character design.
To create another example - take superhero comics, or superheroes in general. All superheroine outfits are, almost entirely and categorically, designed for the male gaze, and comics have long been a stronghold of chauvinistic attitudes. If you stop the argument there, you end up with, "All superheroines are evidence of a damaging hatred or other-ing of women."
But I prefer to take the long view. If you talk to female comics fans, you'll find out that many of them do or have idolized certain heroines that absolutely look a bit trashy. They don't all just decide to get plastic surgery or become strippers, though. Many of them go forward in life, having idolized a Catwoman or a Supergirl, and they find themselves thinking about how to act more heroically. How to right wrongs or stand up against injustice. For some of them, just knowing that superheroines exist and can do the same things as male superheroes is empowering.
Others might grow up enough to see how limited some of those concepts are, and it might lead them to read better, deeper comic books or actual books, or even to write or draw their own comics that are much more meaningful, positive, sensible, thought-provoking, and admirable than the material they started with. But that would never have happened if they weren't initially captivated by those superheroines, and the fact that their costumes and physiques are striking and attention-getting - regardless of the fact that they're unrealistic and designed to be eye candy.
In other words, I think it's a mistake to take an aspect of a character's look in isolation, and extrapolate from that the creator has a negative attitude that is the primary factor in creating the look, and that the primary consequence will be reinforcing negative attitudes in the audience. The history of an article of clothing is an important aspect of fashion, and it carries certain implicit meanings with it, but it's not the totality.
Characters are layered, but imagery out of context still has some weight to it. Looking forward to what the full execution of this character is.
@Jaded
Even from the picture of Elizabeth you posted in the blog, her boobs are huge. Consider how thin her neck and waist are, how small her head is and how child-sized her hands are (especially in comparison to the player-character's). Each individual boob is almost the size of her head.
The whole "childlike innocence", "pleading eyes" and "fragile helplessness" just makes the whole thing worse.
@fulldamage
It's worth noting which female video game characters are designed in high heels. Bayonetta immediately springs to mind. High heels are designed to augment sexual image, after all, and video games characters who wear them are more often then not sexual objects. The comparison between high heels and corsets is an apt one.
(As far as I'm aware, bras are primarily beneficial for support and for ease of use by the woman wearing them - I don't think they're effective in the same way as heels and corsets. At least, most sexualized female characters tend to go without bras for the purpose of extra jiggle. A common semi-facetious criticism of such characters is that they wouldn't be able to do half the crazy shit they do without severely damaging themselves. I'm sure Elsa will attest to having said this on several occasions!)
You really shouldn't have mentioned comics - they're notorious for misogynistic depictions of women. Supergirl and Catwoman included. It's a long established tradition in comics for any non-sexualized female character to develop into a form that can be best exploited for the benefit of the male gaze (Psylocke and Rahne, off the top of my mind). And more often than not the female characters take a secondary place to the male characters (consider, for one, the Girlfriend in Refrigerators trope).
The very fact that superheroines are foremost subject to the male gaze is remarkably depressing. "You can be heroes too, ladies... so long as you're sexy enough! No unsexy heroines in my world!" (Oh God, I just remember what happened to Amanda Waller... I had repressed that reboot.)
There's a vast double standard in comic books when it comes to depiction of the genders; many people are simply blind to it or have come to accept it out of frustration, since it's a problem that has decades of precedent.
Even from the picture of Elizabeth you posted in the blog, her boobs are huge. Consider how thin her neck and waist are, how small her head is and how child-sized her hands are (especially in comparison to the player-character's). Each individual boob is almost the size of her head.
The whole "childlike innocence", "pleading eyes" and "fragile helplessness" just makes the whole thing worse.
@fulldamage
It's worth noting which female video game characters are designed in high heels. Bayonetta immediately springs to mind. High heels are designed to augment sexual image, after all, and video games characters who wear them are more often then not sexual objects. The comparison between high heels and corsets is an apt one.
(As far as I'm aware, bras are primarily beneficial for support and for ease of use by the woman wearing them - I don't think they're effective in the same way as heels and corsets. At least, most sexualized female characters tend to go without bras for the purpose of extra jiggle. A common semi-facetious criticism of such characters is that they wouldn't be able to do half the crazy shit they do without severely damaging themselves. I'm sure Elsa will attest to having said this on several occasions!)
You really shouldn't have mentioned comics - they're notorious for misogynistic depictions of women. Supergirl and Catwoman included. It's a long established tradition in comics for any non-sexualized female character to develop into a form that can be best exploited for the benefit of the male gaze (Psylocke and Rahne, off the top of my mind). And more often than not the female characters take a secondary place to the male characters (consider, for one, the Girlfriend in Refrigerators trope).
The very fact that superheroines are foremost subject to the male gaze is remarkably depressing. "You can be heroes too, ladies... so long as you're sexy enough! No unsexy heroines in my world!" (Oh God, I just remember what happened to Amanda Waller... I had repressed that reboot.)
There's a vast double standard in comic books when it comes to depiction of the genders; many people are simply blind to it or have come to accept it out of frustration, since it's a problem that has decades of precedent.
Excellent blog, I really enjoyed reading your take on this issue. Your points are solid, and I agree with them.
I had the same feelings Occams had I just noticed her big sad eyes, I didn't notice here chest until others pointed it out. Amidst all the chaos that was happening in the trailer her chest did not seem like something important to me.
I had the same feelings Occams had I just noticed her big sad eyes, I didn't notice here chest until others pointed it out. Amidst all the chaos that was happening in the trailer her chest did not seem like something important to me.
Extreme enjoyable read.
Despite my own writings on this sort os issue - I swear I did not see anything derogatory in Elizabeth's character or design. I was a little bit perplexed as to why this garnished such a load of hype, when worse issues have come and gone. The costumes design of Bioshock Infinite seems to fit the time period and women who wear corsets or bodices are always going to have their breasts on display moreso because of them. I think heart attacks were extremely prominent in that time period when a woman left her home.
Despite my own writings on this sort os issue - I swear I did not see anything derogatory in Elizabeth's character or design. I was a little bit perplexed as to why this garnished such a load of hype, when worse issues have come and gone. The costumes design of Bioshock Infinite seems to fit the time period and women who wear corsets or bodices are always going to have their breasts on display moreso because of them. I think heart attacks were extremely prominent in that time period when a woman left her home.
