Achievements are pointless supernumerary points of data that collectively add up a gamer's total score conspicuously labeled "gamerscore" or GS. Achievements are completely worthless or are they? I am not entirely convinced that the inveterate nonchalance towards a high GS and particularly hard achievements is so justified. Through experience, I've come to think of my GS as the progeny of my hobby, one which needs nurturance to grow. In cruder terms, I guess you can think of it as my E-dick.
I am also inclined to believe that a high GS produced by ordinary means is one which forecasts important psychological characteristics of the gamer. For once, I believe a high GS and particularly one which has a high completion ratio to games played (e.g. 50000 GS/50 Games = 100 %) is indicative of fidelity and dedication. I am not in a position to test these hypotheses scientifically; I can still conjecture that GS can be used as a cutoff to identify the hardcore from the casual within the specific parameters of Xbox 360 ownership. As for the PS3 and the trophies, it becomes a more diffident task as it is not as easily quantifiable.
My own gamerscore is above 20k, and I don't sim through games like Avatar or TMNT. I have come to give life to this protean entity that is personal at the same time as it fundamentally a mere numeracy. I've completed games like Cod4 which is arguably a hair pulling experience as well as made brave attempts to endure 200 hours for a few 100's gc in several notorious JRPGS. Trophies are in their totality completely indiscriminate whereas a total number is more or less unique. Sure, other players have completed Cod4 but not everyone has MY unique number for all games played. It’s a symbolic portrait of a gamer, and it is a tool with which I use to identify other gamers as hardcore or casual.
I consider anything under 10k to be "casual" and it's hard for me to take anyone on this site and their criticisms seriously if their GS is under that number. It’s how I can question you as a serious gamer and I prefer to take criticisms from gamers who are as serious as I am. It's an arbitrary cutoff to be sure, but one that isn't completely void of merit. A high GS usually means one thing: and that's dedication. Dedication is essentially the same as saying a person has fervently invested many hours into something. Achievements comprise a trivial system of reward for activities gamers have done for decades which is to play games and play them in various ways. What separates a "hardcore" from a "casual" can be broken down into two facets of the categorical definition. 1: What we play, and 2: How often we play. Casual xboxers play the same thing as I do but the difference is that I play more often, hence why my GS is considerably higher.
I see no reason why GS can't be more than just empty points, why not use it as a cutoff? It's how we can make meaningful comparisons that don't rely on the unreliable word of mouth. You say you finished Mile High on Veteran? Prove it! For those who say gamers don’t care about anyone else’s score, you’re wrong! I check my friend’s GC usually about 10 minutes before I log off at night. I am also following one guy who has vowed to max out all his games, and he is doing it to my outmost intrigue. This guy has maxed games I wouldn’t dream of attempting like Ninja Gaiden, and DMC 4.
Do you agree numbers can distinguish something so subjective of a construct like hardcore and casual? How else can I know if you are a serious gamer?
"I consider anything under 10k to be "casual" and it's hard for me to take anyone on this site and their criticisms seriously if their GS is under that number."
Maybe they game on the PS3/Wii. Thanks for furthering the "elitist" image of gamers everywhere.
And welcome back to trolling: you're good at it.
I just thought I'd mention a huge hole in your thesis. Call of Duty 4 is a multiplayer game. I know tons of top ranked players who haven't even touched the single player.
Also, most of the gamerscore on action games is superfluous garbage. It's not "see how skilled/dedicated of a gamer you are", like you're contending, it's dumb things like "kill 13,000 enemies with a cheese grater": a lot of veterans (myself included), will just beat the game on the hardest difficulty, get the single completion achievement involved, and call it quits.
A player can be "hardcore" and simply not get achievements because they care more about the game than arbitrary tasks that have been tacked onto it. Someone could live and breathe 2D fighters and learn every nuance of a particular game's fighting system and simply not have achievements for other characters or some game modes because they were unimportant. I may someday have the Beautiful Arakune trophy in BlazBlue for two consecutive perfect matches and unless I play Haku-men, will never get the combo damage trophy for him. I could be the best Arakune player on earth (though I'm not) and still not have that Haku-men trophy; does that make someone with that trophy more hardcore than hypothetical me, even if they get destroyed in every match we play?
On the topic of trophies, I don't know where people get the idea that they're in any way different from achievements. They have all the same qualifications and come in varying values. I imagine the equivalence is something like 5 to 25 GP for bronze, 25 to 75 for silver and 75-whatever is gold, with the platinum trophy awarded for full game completion only. I haven't gone through a few games to average the values out, but it's generally safe to say that harder achievements and trophies are worth more and like a hundred point rating scale vs a five point rating scale, boiling it down to more than easy, medium and hard to accomplish was deemed unnecessary. Much like a game rated 8.8 vs 8.9, can you really tell me what the difference between 80 and 85GP means?
I also agree with Tlack. Half a mile a day for 40 days is no where near as hardcore as 20 miles in an afternoon, but you can say you jogged 20 miles either way. The PS3 level/trophy system attempts to differentiate these by displaying the number of each trophy type along with level (basically using the hidden GS as XP to raise it RPG style) and total number of trophies. I think that gives them a leg up on achievements; it says right on my profile card where my level comes from. I'm level 7, with 12 gold and 54 silver trophies, so you can tell my level isn't just from getting the easy trophies in lots of games. That said, I also don't care about them, which is why I haven't gone back to finish off Uncharted, Infamous and the KZ2 campaign just for the platinum trophies. I played those games because I liked them, not to jump through hoops.
I was a serious gamer before GS was introduced, and I'll be a serious gamer If I never earn another trophy in a game again (Which is pretty impossible, since you get trophy's for the most mundane of activities, pull off Gauntlet Hades 100 times as Ragna, I'm so hardcore).
I'm a serious gamer because gaming is something I highly enjoy, it's my main form of entertainment, and I'm serious about my entertainment. I have to be, I plan to work in the industry.
I consider serious gamers people who truly love playing video games. Who enjoy playing video games, and then talking about them with others, people who enjoy playing video games with others, who just plain enjoy everything video games.
But if you want a cut-off between casual and serious, I'll give you one;
Make video games for a living. Fun video games at that.
I don't think gamerscore is any accurate indication of overall gaming serious or dedication.
Does someone that rented Hannah Montana and NBA Ballers for the achievements still count as a serious gamer?
Does the very dedicated MMO, Wii and PS3 gamer that just got his 360 today not have any value as a serious gamer?
I think having an actual conversation with a person, coupled with their actual game scores, can give someone a much better idea of what they value as a gamer.
You still didn't address any valid criticisms of your mentality.
You stay up all night and get meaningless single player achievements for a multiplayer game, whilst all of us increase our COD4 rank.
There's no point to be made here. Also, if you actually played games like DMC4 (I could say you're not hardcore), you'd know, like I said above, the achievements for them are trite, and not skill based.
"Complete the game using only the Eclipse Scythe." LOL OMG IM SO HARCORE that I beat Ninja Gaiden II like this just for 5 achievement points! Give me a break.
@Kyo
We're actually trying to have a legitimate discussion here, though. This isn't his typical "complete failblog" stuff, and we're not posting throw-away comments, so "no fail Destructoid" doesn't apply here in the slightest. A lot of people feel like gamerscore=talent.
B-but... the 360 is for faggots who only play SHOOTAN games! There's nothing hardcore about that! That's only what's portrayed to be hardcore through the media. :<
Ooh, can I be "hardcore"? My e-peen is over twice as large as yours, so I'm more hardcore-er than you, how you like that? And I couldn't care less, haha scrubby n00b, der!
Glad to see that you game for the right reasons :P Play me in Left 4 Dead or CoD and we'll see how "hardcore" you really are LMAO
Hoborg, the fact that you even bring peer pressure into this argument makes me seriously doubt this entire subject has any worth. Admitting that you submit to pressure is kind of admitting you forfeit your ability as a free thinker. What should it matter if you can or cannot tell if I'm a serious gamer or not? You're talking about appearances, not actuality. It doesn't matter how something appears.
People who concern themselves in that way about appearances are what we call posers, and are not to be trusted to tell other people anything about authenticity or the real way of things.
I don't think you can base a person's gaming ability by their gamer score. As you said, some people will inflate their GS by playing through easy games. I think it'd be better to go by certain achievements/trophies a person has. For example on the PS3 if someone has a Warhawk Platinum, they basically get free beejays by everyone and command all the respect a gamer could possible give. Achieving Platinum in every kids movie-game from the holidays? Maybe a high five and a good laugh. Personally Criterion ruined it for me when I realized I would have to pay $70 for all the DLC if I wanted my trophy count in the game to be at 100%. Now I only go for trophies I want, like Uncharted's Platinum.
Also Hoborg, thanks for making this blog readable. Communication is key to making friends here ^_^.
I totally and absolutely disagree! A person's "gamerscore" is quite rightly related to your blog title... nothing more than a "mine is bigger than yours" penis contest. A lot of gamers are online gamers. They buy a game, they may even play the campaign... then they get down to business and play online. Some play ranked games, some play unranked games. Some play clan games, some play tournaments... many play online a LOT. Most trophies are not given for online play and some are only given for ranked play which might exclude those that prefer clan, private or unranked play.
The guy or gal that plays SOCOM every night, that spends time with their clan mates on clan sites... they are just as much a "hardcore" gamer as the gamer who buffs up their gamer score with Hannah Montana easy bonus points.
In fact the whole "hardcore/casual" thing is rather ridiculous. Anyone who games a lot is a hardcore gamer... be it on a Dreamcast, PC, or someone who owns all the consoles.
... people that point to high gamerscores always remind me of guys who buy sportscars... they're often both trying to make up for weenie willies.
oh... and Celica brings up a great point about the Warhawk platinum... that is a person who has my highest respect as a gamer... even though the only way to get that trophy is to pretty much play warhawk and nothing else ... for at least 6 months or so!
Why do people still respond to this guy? Seriously, I agree with Nanbu. For some god awful reason, it's straight TROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLL here and it gets +20 responses.
I'd just like to add that having a lot of Gamerscore points does not necessarily prove that one is a dedicated gamer who is "serious" about mastering the games he plays.
For example, having 10,000GS doesn't indicate anything other than the number outright. For example, if I had 10000GS, I could either have gotten every single achievement available in 10 different games, or it could mean that I've earned just 100 points in 100 games, or any other combination of those variables. Which would mark me as more or less "serious"?
Since the idea of a gamerscore was concocted by the advent of the X360, does that mean that nearly the 20+ years I've spent gaming is null and void?
I apologize then... I'll go run 500 times in a circle to earn another pointless achievement to boost a score that doesn't matter at all unless that's how you find self-worth. If so, more power to you, but not every gamer is an achievement whore.
Although I don't agree with you for the most part, I see where you're coming from. Unlike some others, I actually read the whole post and see that your problem is how to separate serious gamers from casual ones.
Gamerscore would be a good idea, but it fails as a divisor between types of gamers because achievements are given for a lot of unavoidable things in a game. Thus, the more games you play, the more points you get. You can be an extremely serious gamer who unlocked all 1000 points in his only game (let's say Halo 3) and you'll still look casual compared to someone who's played a lot of other games. I suppose a percentage would be a more helpful way to discern these gamers, but there's also the problem of owning few games and owning lots of games.
In the end, this is just a practice you've taken and in my mind it really doesn't reflect a gamer's status, especially when I have my doubts that such statuses even exist/should be taken seriously.
Good, provocative blog, sir. Next time, add a picture or two so people don't stop reading halfway through, like so many seem to have done. :)
Destructoid is an open discussion community. You don't need to "audition" to post a comment - just speak your mind. We respect differing opinions on the site, so have at it. Be smart, funny, insightful, clueless, or cute -- but back it up with substance. Keep your cool, keep it fun. We only ask that you act respectfully and above all: don't be a troll and ruin it for everyone else. Don't bring down gamers or we'll, you know, gently shoot you in the face and stuff you into a flaming mailbox. Each comment is your opportuntity to make this community awesomer. Is that even a word?
Avoiding the banhammer only requires common sense: spamming, trolling, racism, NSFW stuff, and other forms of sucking will not be tolerated. If anyone is griefing please report abuse. Be good. Don't suck!
Destructoid is an independently-run publication forged by our love of video games and the gaming community's need of accountable enthusiast press living the dream since March 16, 2006
Hoborg's blog
follow this blog
subscribe via RSS
send message
invite to meetup+play
"I consider anything under 10k to be "casual" and it's hard for me to take anyone on this site and their criticisms seriously if their GS is under that number."
Maybe they game on the PS3/Wii. Thanks for furthering the "elitist" image of gamers everywhere.
And welcome back to trolling: you're good at it.
I just thought I'd mention a huge hole in your thesis. Call of Duty 4 is a multiplayer game. I know tons of top ranked players who haven't even touched the single player.
Also, most of the gamerscore on action games is superfluous garbage. It's not "see how skilled/dedicated of a gamer you are", like you're contending, it's dumb things like "kill 13,000 enemies with a cheese grater": a lot of veterans (myself included), will just beat the game on the hardest difficulty, get the single completion achievement involved, and call it quits.
I think it's a Microsoft marketing scheme and aside from proving how much of a microshittingwhore you are, it is worthless.
Gamer Score proves noting of any type of skill, or ability, only the amount of money and time you've spent.
STFUAJPG!
Gamer score is simply marketing ploy from Microsoft, it does not prove any kind of ability, or skill.
Xbox live is for casual players.
I think the entire thing is asinine.
A player can be "hardcore" and simply not get achievements because they care more about the game than arbitrary tasks that have been tacked onto it. Someone could live and breathe 2D fighters and learn every nuance of a particular game's fighting system and simply not have achievements for other characters or some game modes because they were unimportant. I may someday have the Beautiful Arakune trophy in BlazBlue for two consecutive perfect matches and unless I play Haku-men, will never get the combo damage trophy for him. I could be the best Arakune player on earth (though I'm not) and still not have that Haku-men trophy; does that make someone with that trophy more hardcore than hypothetical me, even if they get destroyed in every match we play?
On the topic of trophies, I don't know where people get the idea that they're in any way different from achievements. They have all the same qualifications and come in varying values. I imagine the equivalence is something like 5 to 25 GP for bronze, 25 to 75 for silver and 75-whatever is gold, with the platinum trophy awarded for full game completion only. I haven't gone through a few games to average the values out, but it's generally safe to say that harder achievements and trophies are worth more and like a hundred point rating scale vs a five point rating scale, boiling it down to more than easy, medium and hard to accomplish was deemed unnecessary. Much like a game rated 8.8 vs 8.9, can you really tell me what the difference between 80 and 85GP means?
I also agree with Tlack. Half a mile a day for 40 days is no where near as hardcore as 20 miles in an afternoon, but you can say you jogged 20 miles either way. The PS3 level/trophy system attempts to differentiate these by displaying the number of each trophy type along with level (basically using the hidden GS as XP to raise it RPG style) and total number of trophies. I think that gives them a leg up on achievements; it says right on my profile card where my level comes from. I'm level 7, with 12 gold and 54 silver trophies, so you can tell my level isn't just from getting the easy trophies in lots of games. That said, I also don't care about them, which is why I haven't gone back to finish off Uncharted, Infamous and the KZ2 campaign just for the platinum trophies. I played those games because I liked them, not to jump through hoops.
Why can't we base being a serious gamer as someone who takes gaming seriously? Instead of how many points you have?
I was a serious gamer before GS was introduced, and I'll be a serious gamer If I never earn another trophy in a game again (Which is pretty impossible, since you get trophy's for the most mundane of activities, pull off Gauntlet Hades 100 times as Ragna, I'm so hardcore).
I'm a serious gamer because gaming is something I highly enjoy, it's my main form of entertainment, and I'm serious about my entertainment. I have to be, I plan to work in the industry.
I consider serious gamers people who truly love playing video games. Who enjoy playing video games, and then talking about them with others, people who enjoy playing video games with others, who just plain enjoy everything video games.
But if you want a cut-off between casual and serious, I'll give you one;
Make video games for a living. Fun video games at that.
Welcome to being casual. =P
http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/Wry+Guy/let-s-make-a-non-fail-destructoid-139485.phtml
I don't think gamerscore is any accurate indication of overall gaming serious or dedication.
Does someone that rented Hannah Montana and NBA Ballers for the achievements still count as a serious gamer?
Does the very dedicated MMO, Wii and PS3 gamer that just got his 360 today not have any value as a serious gamer?
I think having an actual conversation with a person, coupled with their actual game scores, can give someone a much better idea of what they value as a gamer.
You still didn't address any valid criticisms of your mentality.
You stay up all night and get meaningless single player achievements for a multiplayer game, whilst all of us increase our COD4 rank.
There's no point to be made here. Also, if you actually played games like DMC4 (I could say you're not hardcore), you'd know, like I said above, the achievements for them are trite, and not skill based.
"Complete the game using only the Eclipse Scythe."
LOL OMG IM SO HARCORE that I beat Ninja Gaiden II like this just for 5 achievement points! Give me a break.
@Kyo
We're actually trying to have a legitimate discussion here, though. This isn't his typical "complete failblog" stuff, and we're not posting throw-away comments, so "no fail Destructoid" doesn't apply here in the slightest. A lot of people feel like gamerscore=talent.
B-but... the 360 is for faggots who only play SHOOTAN games! There's nothing hardcore about that! That's only what's portrayed to be hardcore through the media. :<
Ooh, can I be "hardcore"? My e-peen is over twice as large as yours, so I'm more hardcore-er than you, how you like that? And I couldn't care less, haha scrubby n00b, der!
Glad to see that you game for the right reasons :P Play me in Left 4 Dead or CoD and we'll see how "hardcore" you really are LMAO
'poink' * Achievement Unlocked: You Are A Tool *
Hoborg, the fact that you even bring peer pressure into this argument makes me seriously doubt this entire subject has any worth. Admitting that you submit to pressure is kind of admitting you forfeit your ability as a free thinker. What should it matter if you can or cannot tell if I'm a serious gamer or not? You're talking about appearances, not actuality. It doesn't matter how something appears.
People who concern themselves in that way about appearances are what we call posers, and are not to be trusted to tell other people anything about authenticity or the real way of things.
I don't think you can base a person's gaming ability by their gamer score. As you said, some people will inflate their GS by playing through easy games. I think it'd be better to go by certain achievements/trophies a person has. For example on the PS3 if someone has a Warhawk Platinum, they basically get free beejays by everyone and command all the respect a gamer could possible give. Achieving Platinum in every kids movie-game from the holidays? Maybe a high five and a good laugh. Personally Criterion ruined it for me when I realized I would have to pay $70 for all the DLC if I wanted my trophy count in the game to be at 100%. Now I only go for trophies I want, like Uncharted's Platinum.
Also Hoborg, thanks for making this blog readable. Communication is key to making friends here ^_^.
geez so penis is a bad word now?
I totally and absolutely disagree! A person's "gamerscore" is quite rightly related to your blog title... nothing more than a "mine is bigger than yours" penis contest. A lot of gamers are online gamers. They buy a game, they may even play the campaign... then they get down to business and play online. Some play ranked games, some play unranked games. Some play clan games, some play tournaments... many play online a LOT. Most trophies are not given for online play and some are only given for ranked play which might exclude those that prefer clan, private or unranked play.
The guy or gal that plays SOCOM every night, that spends time with their clan mates on clan sites... they are just as much a "hardcore" gamer as the gamer who buffs up their gamer score with Hannah Montana easy bonus points.
In fact the whole "hardcore/casual" thing is rather ridiculous. Anyone who games a lot is a hardcore gamer... be it on a Dreamcast, PC, or someone who owns all the consoles.
... people that point to high gamerscores always remind me of guys who buy sportscars... they're often both trying to make up for weenie willies.
eh... my thoughts anyway.
oh... and Celica brings up a great point about the Warhawk platinum... that is a person who has my highest respect as a gamer... even though the only way to get that trophy is to pretty much play warhawk and nothing else ... for at least 6 months or so!
@ Elsa
My car is very small and non-sporty...
lol, sorry, I couldn't resist XD
My gamerscore is 9345. That's all I have to say on the subject. It drives me mad, I just want to get it over 10,000 so I can forget about it.
Why do people still respond to this guy? Seriously, I agree with Nanbu. For some god awful reason, it's straight TROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLL here and it gets +20 responses.
in b4 part of the problem
I'd just like to add that having a lot of Gamerscore points does not necessarily prove that one is a dedicated gamer who is "serious" about mastering the games he plays.
For example, having 10,000GS doesn't indicate anything other than the number outright. For example, if I had 10000GS, I could either have gotten every single achievement available in 10 different games, or it could mean that I've earned just 100 points in 100 games, or any other combination of those variables. Which would mark me as more or less "serious"?
Since the idea of a gamerscore was concocted by the advent of the X360, does that mean that nearly the 20+ years I've spent gaming is null and void?
I apologize then... I'll go run 500 times in a circle to earn another pointless achievement to boost a score that doesn't matter at all unless that's how you find self-worth. If so, more power to you, but not every gamer is an achievement whore.
I have a gamerscore of 1000 something but I could probably kick your ass, so I'm good.
man do i love Magnalon and everything he writes.
*walks in*
*leaves*
TRIPLE POST FAIL WEEEE :D
@Fronz
Haha, hopefully that was serious :-D. I know I enjoy your pieces, hence, my request for a Fronz Feature!
Although I don't agree with you for the most part, I see where you're coming from. Unlike some others, I actually read the whole post and see that your problem is how to separate serious gamers from casual ones.
Gamerscore would be a good idea, but it fails as a divisor between types of gamers because achievements are given for a lot of unavoidable things in a game. Thus, the more games you play, the more points you get. You can be an extremely serious gamer who unlocked all 1000 points in his only game (let's say Halo 3) and you'll still look casual compared to someone who's played a lot of other games. I suppose a percentage would be a more helpful way to discern these gamers, but there's also the problem of owning few games and owning lots of games.
In the end, this is just a practice you've taken and in my mind it really doesn't reflect a gamer's status, especially when I have my doubts that such statuses even exist/should be taken seriously.
Good, provocative blog, sir. Next time, add a picture or two so people don't stop reading halfway through, like so many seem to have done. :)
I have one too