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Do Games Have To Be Fun To Be Good?
Evo | 10:25 AM on 04.14.2008 16 comments


(This was written in response to several articles on Rock, Paper, Shotgun that provided an analysis of Pathologic. Some issues were raised in the comments about whether games have to be fun to be good. I wrote this as a follow up. It originally featured on my blog.)


Do games have to be fun to be good? This is a question which following Quinns take on Pathologic over on Rock, Paper, Shotgun has been running around in my head like a hamster does on a wheel. Or is that a mouse…anyway one of the points that Quinns raised in his examination of Pathologic was that while it may not always be a fun game to play, it was a good game.

Of course this statement caused some debate among the RPS fanatics, another issue that was raised in response to this detailed examination of Pathologic was whether current reviewing methods are really all that good.

That issue was raised and was based on the fact that in the preamble to the first piece by Quinns, Mr Kieron Gillen actually came out and mentioned that fact that under current ‘traditional’ games reviewing processes he had to give the game at lowly 52% in PC Gamer and this ‘traditional’ way of reviews limited John Walker to giving the game a 6/10 on Eurogamer.

Of course this is a different issue entirely and is one that is probably best left to people like Kieron, John and the other two Rock, Paper, Shotgun fellas to discuss. After all, reviewing games is part of their job, for me it is just a hobby.

So, do games have to fun to be good? For me the answer is a simple one, and I could just put that one single word down and be done with this, however I feel a bit of waffling on is required. Well waffling on is a skill I have learnt well so far during my university course, and it is one I am going to have to make great use of in my dissertation.

Anyway, what is my take on the statement/topic/question or whatever you want to call it at hand?
Well I must say NO! I say this simply because fun is a perspective that varies wildly between different people. There are so many games out there and so many gamers out there that everyone is going to have different ideas on what makes a game fun.

Some may find Simulators fun, while others may find them boring and not much fun at all. The same can be said for First Person Shooters and Multiplayer Online Games. The whole notion of fun varies so wildly between people that the statement ‘games have to be fun to be good’ is utter bullcrap. I for one can have fun with many games, they do not all have to be good though. The same applies in reverse for me, I can find a game to not be much fun, but I recognise that just because it is not fun to me doesn’t make it a bad game.

Take for example the latest Sam and Max games. I had to review one of the Season 2 episodes and I didn’t really find it that fun. This may just have been down to my mind being a bit strange, but I could see that the game wasn’t bad. It may not have been brilliant but it wasn’t a bad game. Yet I didn’t find it that fun to play.

The same goes for Halo, while at times I had fun with it, for the most part I was pretty indifferent to it and just played on for the sake of it. Just because I didn’t find the entire game fun though doesn’t mean it was a bad game. On the most part it was pretty good.

So it is clear that a game doesn’t have to be fun to be good. It is purely our own persona and the way our minds work the defines whether a game is fun, and if we look at game from a critical perspective we can see that while we may not have had loads of fun with a game it was actually pretty good.

Time is dragging on and I have to be up for work in the morning, an example of something that is neither fun nor good there!

So to sum up my brief ramblings, a game does not have to be fun to be good. The idea of fun varies wildly from person to person. Whether a game is good or not can be seen by taking a critical look at it and by taking off those rose tinted specs.

After readings Quinns take on Pathologic I am fully prepared to start playing (when it arrives) a broken game that is not much fun, but that beneath those perceived flaws is actually quite good.



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16 comments | showing # 1 to 16

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Kryptinite's Destructoid Blog
Fun = Good

So...yes. If the game is not "good" then it's not going to be fun. It all depends on what your perception of "good" is. I guess I'm totally missing your argument. The sole purpose of a game should be that it's fun. If the game isn't fun, then it fails and is a bad game. Simple as that. A game can be broken as hell, i.e Mass Effect, but if it achieves it's sole purpose, then that game is a good game because you had fun with it. I hope that makes sense.
Tubatic's Destructoid Blog
Passage was not particularly fun, but I would call it good.

. . . wait, good as a product, that is.

. . . That is to say, well designed as a game. So good from a design standpoint. But from a playing standpoint, not exactly fun . . .

But I guess then there's varying degrees of fun? Passage wasn't *alot* of fun, but was fun for a bit.
MrJunko's Destructoid Blog
Yes. They should be fun in order for them to be "good"

I can think of a hundred movies that are packed with A list actors, beautiful cinematography, and big budget special effects. But if I dont give a shit about the story, or if Im even enjoying myself while Im watching this, whats the point?
ShawnKelfonne's Destructoid Blog
Umm, I play games to have fun, so yes.
Evo's Destructoid Blog
Tubatic got it, a game like Passage is good, but no necessarily 'fun' to play.

It is something to think about, why do we lambast games so readily just because they are not fun. 'Fun' is such an abstract idea that we often can think a game is crap just because we didn't have fun with it. Many people can't take a step back and recognise a good game because of this.

I think that writing that and nearly falling asleep prevented me getting my ideas accross well.
Anus Mcphanus's Destructoid Blog
Games are primarily a form of entertainment
Entertainment should be entertaining/fun

I can see where you're coming from with the different people, different tastes argument but the way I see it that just means that different people enjoy different kinds of games.

If I played a game and I didn't find it fun it would be a bad game to me but if someone else played it and had fun with it then it's a good game to them. So in that respect games do indeed have to be fun. I mean would you play a game you didn't find fun? I wouldn't

(p.s. that was a good read though but next time could we have some pretty pictures please... I like pictures)
Kryptinite's Destructoid Blog
@evo

Fun' is such an abstract idea

The same goes for 'good'. I understand what you're saying and I think your argument could be a little stronger. But you say that "people can't take a step back and recognizes a good game" and I think I'm arguing that if a game is not fun, then it is not good. If a videogame is not fun to the end users, then it completely failed it's purpose of being created. I don't think that the industry is at the point of movies were developers can start making videogames solely for the purpose to "express a thought" or "give a commentary on the world".

I think this is a great topic to discuss though.
MrJunko's Destructoid Blog
How else would a game be good if its not fun?

Its not the same way you can appreciate a piece of art, or a book. They can be well written, or drawn or painted well. But if your not feeling it, then your not feeling it.

I can see where your going with this, but I dont think you can apply that same rationale to games.
Holyetheline's Destructoid Blog
There's games that feel like a chore... but I have fun with chores. Escort missions are a good example of this.
milescosmo's Destructoid Blog
i wrote a similar post to this a little while back, if your interested, here it is - http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/milescosmo/is-fun-more-important-than-story-and-vice-versa-75187.phtml
Evo's Destructoid Blog
@ MrJunko - why can't we apply that same rationale to games? A game can be well written, look good, play good and so forth yet not be fun to the person who is playing it.

You can say the same with some art or a book, there are many books that I don't find fun or enjoyable to read yet they are not 'bad'

@ Kryptinite - that is certainly true that 'good' is also highly subjective, and that would be the logical counter-argument to this. If the idea of whether a game is good or bad is so subjective then surely that throws the whole system of reviews and ratings into question.

This was only a one off quick thing, but there is so much more that can come from this, it really is something to think about.
Tubatic's Destructoid Blog
Its tough, because Passage is a weird exceptional case.

I'm open, personally, to a "video game" going the route of being mundane, frustrating or otherwise not-fun to get a message across. However, considering the medium, I think it works in a "video game"'s favor to incorporate fun with the message they are trying to convey.

. . I guess sort of Twilight Princess not being fun for long stretches until a boss battle. From that stretch of not-fun, your sense of fun is heightened once you get to a boss fight, and you're given a since of overcoming something (stints of rote boredom) to get to something crazy fun (boss fights). Can't say 100% if that was intentional though :p
Tubatic's Destructoid Blog
thpt. *like Twilight Princess
burglarize's Destructoid Blog
I think this is a mega-big point in the "games as art" debate.

A book or film does not have to be fun to be a masterpiece. When reading a war novel you're not usually meant to have fun and have a right old laugh.

Also, entertainment does not equal fun.

So if you say that a game isn't fun, it doesn't meant that it's not entertaining. Take for example a horror game. Ok yes, some horror games cross the 'fun boundary' but some try and keep the utter horror and suspense continually through the game. You may enjoy the experience of being horrified, but it is not fun. At least in the way I think of the word.

I think if games are to be treated as art, then we have to make more games that don't focus on fun, but rather evoking a whole range of emotions. When you go watch a film I hope you don't just think "I want to watch something that will make me laugh" every time. Sometimes sure, but other times you'll want to watch a film that might make you cry.

I heard people cried at parts in Lost Odyssey. Crying isn't fun. Being moved is far more powerful than just having a bit of fun.

Anyway, sorry for the messed up/disjointed ramble. I'm just reeling off from my thoughts.
Mxyzptlk's Destructoid Blog
Yes, yes they do. If you don't find a game fun, then that game isn't good to you.
Pixel Blue's Destructoid Blog
So, sometimes I watch a movie, and it's really, really sad. I would not call a sad movie 'fun' because, well, I'm sitting there feeling awful. But it's still good. In the same way, I think games can be good without being fun.

I would wager that many people's favorite gaming moments aren't 'fun'. A main/important character dies, you find out you've been betrayed -- strictly speaking, we're being entertained, but not in the "ha ha ha, oh the lulz and joy" way. So if 'fun' means 'is enjoyable', then games have to be fun. But we enjoy sad, epic stories, and if 'fun' means "I am smiling the entire time", then no, games don't have to be fun. This is what people usually mean by fun. For instance, this sentence:

"Oh man, I am playing FFVII through for the first time, and Aeris just died ... what a fun game."

.. sounds a little weird. 'Fun' is usually reserved for smiling happiness. This would be better:

"Oh man, I am playing FFVII through for the first time, and Aeris just died ... what a good game."


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