Now don't get me wrong I have a special place in my heart as much as the next gamer does for Link and the Zelda series, but how often does he get a free pass just because he's him?
I was talking to a friend last night and was telling him how I thought Fable was a better game than any of the Zelda games with the exception of Link to the Past. It's essentially the same type of game. Action with some hack and slash and RPG elements thrown in.
Maybe I'm still a loot whore from my days of WoW but I found way more satisfaction with the armor and ability to play as you choose in Fable then the always green elf costume and good guy role you are always forced to play in Zelda games. He went on to say that it's acceptable from Zelda because of history and how much the series means to gamers. To be honest i'm tired of giving these series free passes. Metriod took the step with Prime to making the game a whole new invention in the series, Zelda is always the same. While i did enjoy Twilight Princess it's just i get tired of the series using the same puzzles and same weapons they've always had, boomerrang, bow, sword , shield, grapple... i mean where is the innovation in the series? where the ability to add runes that you can buy with rupies to enhance your weapons?
I would go crazy for a Zelda game that had more RPG elements to it, but I won't ever see that day, so now, i'll say farewell to Link, as he's been replaced with the nameless white kid with horns from my Fable save. Bring on Fable 2
How often does he get Zelda get a free pass? Far too often.
Evidence: The Twilight 8.8 drama bomb from Gamespot. When a game gets an 8.8 and people throw a shit fit over it and are glad that Gerstmann lost his job, there's a huge fucking problem.
I don't get how reviewers almost never criticize Zelda for all the rehashing it does (you know you're a rehashan series when I'm the same fucking guy saving the same fucking princess from the same fucking villain as I was back when I was three years old and now I'm 22), but, a traditional jRPG like Lost Odyssey is released and all the reviews are like, "HURRRR THIS GAME IS SO DERIVATIVE, THEY SHOULD BE MORE CREATIVE."
Free pass? Some have, but certainly not Ocarina of Time. Way back in 1998, that game was absolutely incredible. Of course Fable will have more advanced elements than those games.
It's newer than most of the old Zelda games, right?. Obviously Twilight Princess didn't get a free pass, based on GameSpots and Destructoid's scores.
And there is nothing wrong with them not mixing things up with the gameplay. I think Zelda needs a fresh coat of paint, but otherwise how can you change the core gameplay of a game that has pretty much perfect gameplay mechanics?
Despite often being classified as so, The Zelda games are not RPGs. They're adventure games with some RPG like qualities. And while a Zelda like game with heavier RPG influences would be cool, that's not what the series is about. I agree with you, LTTP rehashed over and over again does get sort of stale. But I think that games like Wind Waker, Majora's Mask and Phantom Hourglasss do a nice job of keeping things fresh while still staying true to the series core principles.
Looking back though, it's kind of funny that everyone got so pissed about TWP getting a 8.8, since that's a pretty fair score for it. It was good, but nothing phenomenal. In truth, it probably didn't deserve even the 8, a 6 seems like a better score for it, but that's just my opinion.
Ocarina of time was a great game, but mask of Majora got great reviews and it was again the same game essentially, I mean they tried with Windwaker and i couldn't even finish that game.
@eronteri
This is where it comes down to a matter opinion. I thought MM and WW were two amazing and unique games, and two of my all time favorites. I can see though, based on what you said about you're gaming tastes in the post, how you could consider them to similar, since they didn't progress in the area you would have liked them too. I don't want them to change that way though, as I feel that then they wouldn't be Zelda games anymore, but I understand how you wan this, and respect you're opinion.
Majora's Mask, the same as Ocarina of Time? Wow, now that's just silly. The entire game revolved around a time mechanic that wasn't used in any previous game. It was actually quite the different game, although personally I prefer Ocarina.
The icing might be different but the cakes the same , that's all i meant. Like i said I love the series I'm just tired of it, the same way i'm tired of GTA being the same thing over and over
Yeah, TP wasn't stellar, imo. It was a chore to finish, though by the book, they did alot of things right.
If it wasn't the 4th iteration of Link to the Past's quest dungeon progression model (Trees, Rocks, Water - Move on to non elemental locations), it might not have felt that way, I think.
I like to think of the Zelda games as incredibly accessible RPG's. Like RPG's, Zelda gives players the option to customize their character with a few different pieces of equipment, there's character growth in the form of Heart containers, and new spells and abilities through the numerous items you find in the game.
Fable was great, but it lacked dungeons. I can only think of 2 dungeons in the entire game. Give Fable some more puzzles and subterranean monster homes, and I doubt I'd play another Zelda game again.
What exactly is good about Fable now? The core gameplay is about as deep as mashing a button over and over or using an instant win spell. All the stats and questing and progression rubbish is fine and well, but it's worse than having the same cake when you're just left with a pile of icing. Maybe if they combined all the dressing and external depth of Fable with some solid and interesting core gameplay closer to Zelda, then it'd be something worthwhile.
Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker did things almost perfectly, if you ask me. It's my opinion that Wind Waker was able to capitalize on the almost-identical game mechanics by varying the art style radically and adding the island/boat/wind/water aspects.
Twilight Princess was a beautiful, content filled game that was pretty fun. The story was atrociously bland and underdeveloped, especially for a Zelda title, and the depth of the content was somewhat lacking. The puzzles and boss strategies were interesting to figure out, but painfully lacked any challenge.
I think we need to see a return to more difficult dungeons and a less obvious game progression. The theme of exploration to find your next objective has been missing in the last game...
I really think that would help remove the stale feeling the series has earned.
There are core elements that make a Zelda game a Zelda game. You you change too many of them just for change's sake, then you might as well call it something else. Every Zelda brings back old and familar themes, locations, and items while also introducing new ones. It's the same for any long-running franchise. Resident Evil games still use healing herbs and have that silly grid inventory system, Mario still collects gold coins and stomps on turtles, etc.
That said, I didn't really fall in love with Twilight Princess. I didn't think it was bad by any means, but I wasn't driven to complete it like I was with previous titles.
My main beef with wind waker was the fact that so much of the world map is covered by just water, it felt like they just ran out of ideas when designing the world map, dont get me wrong it was nicely portrayed, i just hated having to waste so much time sailing around to different places.
IMHO ocarina of time was the best zelda game to date, MM was pretty solid, but it was a LOT harder to complete than ocarina was, and the time constraint got annoying at times.
Zelda sure is an awesome game, but the latest iterations of the series just feel old and dates because of the use of these 'old' puzzles and basicly the same combat system for years on end...
I think too many free passes have been given to this series, I mean TP got 9.5/10 all over the place, and it surely wasn't THAT great...
Twilight Princess was a game almost wholly dedicated to reminding you that Ocarina of Time was a good game, which was a game that apparently convinced everybody that somersaulting everywhere over and over and over is a fun and sensible thing to do.
It's not that it's a bad game, it's just that it's not remarkable at all.
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How often does he get Zelda get a free pass? Far too often.
Evidence: The Twilight 8.8 drama bomb from Gamespot. When a game gets an 8.8 and people throw a shit fit over it and are glad that Gerstmann lost his job, there's a huge fucking problem.
Wish there was an edit button :(
I don't get how reviewers almost never criticize Zelda for all the rehashing it does (you know you're a rehashan series when I'm the same fucking guy saving the same fucking princess from the same fucking villain as I was back when I was three years old and now I'm 22), but, a traditional jRPG like Lost Odyssey is released and all the reviews are like, "HURRRR THIS GAME IS SO DERIVATIVE, THEY SHOULD BE MORE CREATIVE."
Free pass? Some have, but certainly not Ocarina of Time. Way back in 1998, that game was absolutely incredible. Of course Fable will have more advanced elements than those games.
It's newer than most of the old Zelda games, right?. Obviously Twilight Princess didn't get a free pass, based on GameSpots and Destructoid's scores.
And there is nothing wrong with them not mixing things up with the gameplay. I think Zelda needs a fresh coat of paint, but otherwise how can you change the core gameplay of a game that has pretty much perfect gameplay mechanics?
Despite often being classified as so, The Zelda games are not RPGs. They're adventure games with some RPG like qualities. And while a Zelda like game with heavier RPG influences would be cool, that's not what the series is about. I agree with you, LTTP rehashed over and over again does get sort of stale. But I think that games like Wind Waker, Majora's Mask and Phantom Hourglasss do a nice job of keeping things fresh while still staying true to the series core principles.
Looking back though, it's kind of funny that everyone got so pissed about TWP getting a 8.8, since that's a pretty fair score for it. It was good, but nothing phenomenal. In truth, it probably didn't deserve even the 8, a 6 seems like a better score for it, but that's just my opinion.
Ocarina of time was a great game, but mask of Majora got great reviews and it was again the same game essentially, I mean they tried with Windwaker and i couldn't even finish that game.
@eronteri
This is where it comes down to a matter opinion. I thought MM and WW were two amazing and unique games, and two of my all time favorites. I can see though, based on what you said about you're gaming tastes in the post, how you could consider them to similar, since they didn't progress in the area you would have liked them too. I don't want them to change that way though, as I feel that then they wouldn't be Zelda games anymore, but I understand how you wan this, and respect you're opinion.
Its funny because it seems Nintendo has been re-using zelda parts since at least Links Awakening for the GB.
The fishing, the owl, the wind flute (ocarina) the chickens, and of course all of the items are more or less the same.
i'd like to see a 1st person Zelda game that utilizes the wii sports fencing attachment, that would be pretty cool
Majora's Mask, the same as Ocarina of Time? Wow, now that's just silly. The entire game revolved around a time mechanic that wasn't used in any previous game. It was actually quite the different game, although personally I prefer Ocarina.
The icing might be different but the cakes the same , that's all i meant. Like i said I love the series I'm just tired of it, the same way i'm tired of GTA being the same thing over and over
I can understand that, I couldn't even finish GTA4. It was so...stale.
And just to be clear, I didn't finish Twilight Princess. I found it, well, stale.
What everyone else said.
I play the Legend of Zelda games for the Legend. For me, that's kind of the point. Same deal, different setting.
@EDS
Yeah, TP wasn't stellar, imo. It was a chore to finish, though by the book, they did alot of things right.
If it wasn't the 4th iteration of Link to the Past's quest dungeon progression model (Trees, Rocks, Water - Move on to non elemental locations), it might not have felt that way, I think.
I'm ready for a sci-fi zelda.
I like to think of the Zelda games as incredibly accessible RPG's. Like RPG's, Zelda gives players the option to customize their character with a few different pieces of equipment, there's character growth in the form of Heart containers, and new spells and abilities through the numerous items you find in the game.
Fable was great, but it lacked dungeons. I can only think of 2 dungeons in the entire game. Give Fable some more puzzles and subterranean monster homes, and I doubt I'd play another Zelda game again.
What exactly is good about Fable now? The core gameplay is about as deep as mashing a button over and over or using an instant win spell. All the stats and questing and progression rubbish is fine and well, but it's worse than having the same cake when you're just left with a pile of icing. Maybe if they combined all the dressing and external depth of Fable with some solid and interesting core gameplay closer to Zelda, then it'd be something worthwhile.
Will that be Fable 2? Unlikely, but who knows.
I think I agree with Wedge. The two series could learn from each other.
Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker did things almost perfectly, if you ask me. It's my opinion that Wind Waker was able to capitalize on the almost-identical game mechanics by varying the art style radically and adding the island/boat/wind/water aspects.
Twilight Princess was a beautiful, content filled game that was pretty fun. The story was atrociously bland and underdeveloped, especially for a Zelda title, and the depth of the content was somewhat lacking. The puzzles and boss strategies were interesting to figure out, but painfully lacked any challenge.
I think we need to see a return to more difficult dungeons and a less obvious game progression. The theme of exploration to find your next objective has been missing in the last game...
I really think that would help remove the stale feeling the series has earned.
There are core elements that make a Zelda game a Zelda game. You you change too many of them just for change's sake, then you might as well call it something else. Every Zelda brings back old and familar themes, locations, and items while also introducing new ones. It's the same for any long-running franchise. Resident Evil games still use healing herbs and have that silly grid inventory system, Mario still collects gold coins and stomps on turtles, etc.
That said, I didn't really fall in love with Twilight Princess. I didn't think it was bad by any means, but I wasn't driven to complete it like I was with previous titles.
My main beef with wind waker was the fact that so much of the world map is covered by just water, it felt like they just ran out of ideas when designing the world map, dont get me wrong it was nicely portrayed, i just hated having to waste so much time sailing around to different places.
IMHO ocarina of time was the best zelda game to date, MM was pretty solid, but it was a LOT harder to complete than ocarina was, and the time constraint got annoying at times.
I'd like to see another Zelda game based around an original mechanic ala Majora's Mask.
I kind of agree with you :-)
Zelda sure is an awesome game, but the latest iterations of the series just feel old and dates because of the use of these 'old' puzzles and basicly the same combat system for years on end...
I think too many free passes have been given to this series, I mean TP got 9.5/10 all over the place, and it surely wasn't THAT great...
How does anyone like Fable? Easily one of the worst games I played all last generation.
@EDS
Twilight Princess didn't get a free pass because of two sites? Please tell me you're kidding.
http://www.metacritic.com/search/process?sort=relevance&termType=all&ts=Twilight+Princess&ty=0&x=0&y=0
Wii version: 95% average review
GCN version: 96% average review
Fable was easily one of my favorite games of last generation.. but to each is own
Twilight Princess was a game almost wholly dedicated to reminding you that Ocarina of Time was a good game, which was a game that apparently convinced everybody that somersaulting everywhere over and over and over is a fun and sensible thing to do.
It's not that it's a bad game, it's just that it's not remarkable at all.