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Yeah, i dont get why game developers dont want to make a survey to women about what they want in a video game, then theyd get an understanding on well, what they want in a video game. Great to see them listen to a woman with ideas but still, All women have all kinds of different opinions on games and whatnot. Im surprised that developers arnt seeking information like what you said out.
I suggest anyone who gets mad at feminism or politics read Don Quixote. There's a famous part where the hero tries to fight a windmill, believing it to be a giant enemy and a threat. Politicians do it all the time, they invent giant omnipotent creatures to rally behind such as the war on terror, for feminists its patriarchy, for neo cons its socialism.
These people people then idealize these enemies and use it for all manner of things like removing privacy in the name of freedom for example, it becomes a vicious battle and self sustaining cycle fraught with misconstrued data and illogical gaps but opposition to their views gets you labeled as one of their enemies. You can't reason with these people, they are brainwashed.
Watch some of Anita's videos, they open with the line "Ever notice that with a few possible exceptions", that right there shows that its not worth arguing with her, because any counter argument you present her will fall under these exceptions. Her point of view of is perpetually moving goal posts, manipulating data and hiding the full picture.
That should be enough to tell that she's politician and conspiracy theorist who specialized in fighting windmill. She's not worth the time, just ignore her.
For what its worth Elsa, I find you to be probably the best member of this community and a shining example of what a gamer is, you don't say you're a girl gamer, you say you are a gamer and that's all that matters.
These people people then idealize these enemies and use it for all manner of things like removing privacy in the name of freedom for example, it becomes a vicious battle and self sustaining cycle fraught with misconstrued data and illogical gaps but opposition to their views gets you labeled as one of their enemies. You can't reason with these people, they are brainwashed.
Watch some of Anita's videos, they open with the line "Ever notice that with a few possible exceptions", that right there shows that its not worth arguing with her, because any counter argument you present her will fall under these exceptions. Her point of view of is perpetually moving goal posts, manipulating data and hiding the full picture.
That should be enough to tell that she's politician and conspiracy theorist who specialized in fighting windmill. She's not worth the time, just ignore her.
For what its worth Elsa, I find you to be probably the best member of this community and a shining example of what a gamer is, you don't say you're a girl gamer, you say you are a gamer and that's all that matters.
How are you not a famous writer/reporter/ blogger? You are so damn smart and thoughtful. Great read as always Elsa. You make me feel ashamed for my constant crass comments and boner jokes. It says a lot imo that someone on the internet makes me want to be a better person (when it comes to commenting/blogging). Thank you.
Never mind what the apathetic or group of the people quietly, rationally discussing the issue at hand believe. The one who yells loudest and longest must be correct and everything must fit that person's ideals for the benefit of everybody.
Nice blog.
Nice blog.
@Captain ... I too am puzzled... particularly given how easy it is to do surveys with web based tools nowadays!
@Celica... not always so level-headed LOL! ... but I too hope that developers will turn to surveys for a better consensus on what women want.
@Kyousuke... I've seen a few of her videos which is why I object more to developers seeking out her input on female character design, than to her doing a web series on her opinions of old gaming tropes. I think it's dangerous for the industry to feel that any one person can in any way represent what an entire demographic wants. She looks at movies using the old Bechedel test and I certainly don't want to see cutscenes added into games where two women talk about something other than a man... it's an entertaining way of looking at media, but really silly if it's added in to appease some silly feminist "test" and isn't relevant to the actual game or moving the plot forward. Her work is entertaining, but that's all it really is (or has to be).
@Phil... it's actually awesome that you want to be more welcoming to women in the video game world. I hope you had the time to check out the Daniel Floyd video I linked to... it says a lot about what men can do to encourage more female participation in our hobby. It's not a matter of treating women as special or any different than other gamers - but maybe making the language more inclusive and a little bit less of a boy's club! (though I guess we now have the "girl wood" expression to align with all the "boner" jokes and not feel quite so left out! LOL! Yay Aisha!)
@Kyle...so true about much of life. Those that yell the loudest and get the most attention must be right and must be experts.... while the mostly silent majority are ignored. :(
@Sephiroth... thanks!
@Celica... not always so level-headed LOL! ... but I too hope that developers will turn to surveys for a better consensus on what women want.
@Kyousuke... I've seen a few of her videos which is why I object more to developers seeking out her input on female character design, than to her doing a web series on her opinions of old gaming tropes. I think it's dangerous for the industry to feel that any one person can in any way represent what an entire demographic wants. She looks at movies using the old Bechedel test and I certainly don't want to see cutscenes added into games where two women talk about something other than a man... it's an entertaining way of looking at media, but really silly if it's added in to appease some silly feminist "test" and isn't relevant to the actual game or moving the plot forward. Her work is entertaining, but that's all it really is (or has to be).
@Phil... it's actually awesome that you want to be more welcoming to women in the video game world. I hope you had the time to check out the Daniel Floyd video I linked to... it says a lot about what men can do to encourage more female participation in our hobby. It's not a matter of treating women as special or any different than other gamers - but maybe making the language more inclusive and a little bit less of a boy's club! (though I guess we now have the "girl wood" expression to align with all the "boner" jokes and not feel quite so left out! LOL! Yay Aisha!)
@Kyle...so true about much of life. Those that yell the loudest and get the most attention must be right and must be experts.... while the mostly silent majority are ignored. :(
@Sephiroth... thanks!
While I don't have an opinion either way on Sarkeesian's modus operandi because I'm admittedly not totally familiar with her work beyond a couple of videos I checked out when I was reading articles pertaining to attacks on her, with this post you pinpointed exactly what I was trying to get at in my last blog, but in a much more efficient manner. The biggest issue with the current gaming culture is simply that there is very little input from the female gamer demographic, and even less of an attempt to appeal to that demographic by marketers.
This is the primary thing that makes the industry still by and large sexist - lack of female voices in shaping the outcome of any given game.
I'm also curious as to how much market researchers value the female perspective during the pre-release stages of a game. I've been a market research play tester a couple of times, and even for games that appeal to women and men, it seemed like they insist on grouping men together to figure out if the game will sell, just groups of adult males coming in and out for the same game. Maybe they have females test the game and give their opinions on different dates? Or maybe they're too busy market testing females with Barbie's Dream Horse Adventures, I honestly really don't know.
At any rate, awesome blog and I definitely agree that Sarkeesian shouldn't speak for all women in gaming. But sometimes some people are better at politics (i.e. wheeling and dealing), so what you see isn't an accurate representation of what that particular person is championing, because it doesn't take from the community at large.
This is the primary thing that makes the industry still by and large sexist - lack of female voices in shaping the outcome of any given game.
I'm also curious as to how much market researchers value the female perspective during the pre-release stages of a game. I've been a market research play tester a couple of times, and even for games that appeal to women and men, it seemed like they insist on grouping men together to figure out if the game will sell, just groups of adult males coming in and out for the same game. Maybe they have females test the game and give their opinions on different dates? Or maybe they're too busy market testing females with Barbie's Dream Horse Adventures, I honestly really don't know.
At any rate, awesome blog and I definitely agree that Sarkeesian shouldn't speak for all women in gaming. But sometimes some people are better at politics (i.e. wheeling and dealing), so what you see isn't an accurate representation of what that particular person is championing, because it doesn't take from the community at large.
Fantastic as always Elsa!
As a person who is concerned and interested in gender issues in games, this past month has been cringe-worthy. It seems like the conversation has been has been taken over by people who don't have a the background or knowledge about games to really comment on them effectively. Strawmen and hyberbolic statements all over the place. Then there has been the embarrassing snapback with male gamers crying misandry and hurling sexist remarks and insults everywhere – making us all look bad by association. It's an exhasting mess.
Nice to read something that is informed and reasonable!
As a person who is concerned and interested in gender issues in games, this past month has been cringe-worthy. It seems like the conversation has been has been taken over by people who don't have a the background or knowledge about games to really comment on them effectively. Strawmen and hyberbolic statements all over the place. Then there has been the embarrassing snapback with male gamers crying misandry and hurling sexist remarks and insults everywhere – making us all look bad by association. It's an exhasting mess.
Nice to read something that is informed and reasonable!
Excellent perspective. And to be quite honest, I never personally looked at the issue from this angle before reading your blog. Probably because the concept of actually having developers talk to women from all walks of life is so simplistic, some close minded marketing guru would never have thought of it. People seem to be looking for an advice from an authority figure, and not from the general female population. Apart from there also being an incredibly high number of well educated but grossly unimaginative people coming up with new concepts, the majority of them also being male, I think you are right in your assertion that not enough time is really spent getting to know female gamers; not the ones who call themselves GamerGurlz and are out in the forefront of the community due to their looks, being paraded as some anomalous entity and held on a pedestal, but, you know, normal people. People like you, Elsa. People like my cousins girlfriend, people like my wife even who happen to play games (my wife more occasionally than anything else) but who also happen to have other identifying factors which make them dynamic as people, and worth paying attention to.
Because that is what it boils down to; people. It isn`t about genitals, and the careful tiptoeing around issues, as well as the blatant exploitation of women are both equally degrading; not just to women, but to any rational person who can see through the transparency of that approach and understand just how entirely dated and fucking flawed it has all started to become in a world where girls playing video games has now actually reached a level of normalcy.
Great blog, but that goes without saying!
Because that is what it boils down to; people. It isn`t about genitals, and the careful tiptoeing around issues, as well as the blatant exploitation of women are both equally degrading; not just to women, but to any rational person who can see through the transparency of that approach and understand just how entirely dated and fucking flawed it has all started to become in a world where girls playing video games has now actually reached a level of normalcy.
Great blog, but that goes without saying!
All this controversy almost make me yearn for the days when we were all united against the GRL Gamer.
(I swear to God that song is ironic)
Women are half the people on the planet and, hopefully, will be half the gamers soon enough. In my mind games are way too focused on what they think men want anyway, I’m almost ashamed to admit how much time I spend playing dress up in games like GTA instead of killing people, never mind something like Resonance of Fate where I literally spent half my time, in a loooooooong JRPG, choosing outfits.
(I swear to God that song is ironic)
Women are half the people on the planet and, hopefully, will be half the gamers soon enough. In my mind games are way too focused on what they think men want anyway, I’m almost ashamed to admit how much time I spend playing dress up in games like GTA instead of killing people, never mind something like Resonance of Fate where I literally spent half my time, in a loooooooong JRPG, choosing outfits.
The squeaky wheel always gets the grease. Unfortunately the wheel is never a true representation of the whole it just has the biggest\loudest opinion and doesn't comprehend how anyone can think differently. Plenty of political groups around these days that are a good example of that.
Regardless the only true way for females to have better representation in games is simply that more of them need to work in the industry. If it's just guys making the games they best that they can do is guess what women want to see. Perfect example being Don Draper and Peggy Olson. Without Peggy Don was just guessing and usually blind to what women really wanted.
PS never heard of this woman before in my life and am totally mystified why people would donate money for her to play games and give opinions about them. Isn't that something any woman could do in their spare time like any of the legion of guys on youtube already do? Actually are their woman reviewers on youtube too?
Regardless the only true way for females to have better representation in games is simply that more of them need to work in the industry. If it's just guys making the games they best that they can do is guess what women want to see. Perfect example being Don Draper and Peggy Olson. Without Peggy Don was just guessing and usually blind to what women really wanted.
PS never heard of this woman before in my life and am totally mystified why people would donate money for her to play games and give opinions about them. Isn't that something any woman could do in their spare time like any of the legion of guys on youtube already do? Actually are their woman reviewers on youtube too?
I think it is just a case of the loudest and most divergent opinion getting the most airtime, which is a shame. I like her videos and I agree with some of what she says but like you say a single person doesn't represent an entire gender. I think we just need more women involved in gaming in general really - or atleast the perception/realisation that women are involved in gaming. Until the perception changes and the atmosphere around gaming becomes more inclusive it's always going to be the people with the most extreme views who get heard and the majority who gets marginalised/overlooked.
Yeah a topic this broad should never rely on the judgement of one person.
That said I have checked out a few of her video and I am interested on how she proceeds with the project.Honestly I can believe that the developers just don't know any better and are oblivious to what is sexist and what isn't. So the insight from someone (or better yet, some people) that come from the gender they re trying to replicate wouldn't go too far a stray.
Also, good post. A real page scroller.
That said I have checked out a few of her video and I am interested on how she proceeds with the project.Honestly I can believe that the developers just don't know any better and are oblivious to what is sexist and what isn't. So the insight from someone (or better yet, some people) that come from the gender they re trying to replicate wouldn't go too far a stray.
Also, good post. A real page scroller.
Elsa I'm not sure where to start or how to end. This is another fantastic topic and so well written. Just...cheers!
I've not heard of Sarkeesian before but I will have to right now do some research. I'm not entirely sure myself what makes this individual stand out. Perhaps the Green Lantern Ring chose her.
I've not heard of Sarkeesian before but I will have to right now do some research. I'm not entirely sure myself what makes this individual stand out. Perhaps the Green Lantern Ring chose her.
I find this all very confusing. Anita is invited to studios and universities because she's a well spoken and well recognised critic of popular culture. She has a successful public platform that she uses to talk about the things she talks about. And her insights are fair, warranted, objective and level-headed, hence her popularity.
That's why she's recognised more than cbloggers and armchair critics. You might as well puzzle over why Dtoid editors are sent free games and invited to events over those less invested and less grounded in the industry.
Your point criticising Sony and Microsoft et al for overlooking the female demographic but that's a complaint that should be levied at the corporations rather than at Anita.
Also, Anita's stated goal with Feminist Frequency has always been to help equip people with the tools to better analyse, criticise and prescribe popular culture, not to tell everyone what she thinks everyone should enjoy or to project her views onto an entire gender.
That's why she's recognised more than cbloggers and armchair critics. You might as well puzzle over why Dtoid editors are sent free games and invited to events over those less invested and less grounded in the industry.
Your point criticising Sony and Microsoft et al for overlooking the female demographic but that's a complaint that should be levied at the corporations rather than at Anita.
Also, Anita's stated goal with Feminist Frequency has always been to help equip people with the tools to better analyse, criticise and prescribe popular culture, not to tell everyone what she thinks everyone should enjoy or to project her views onto an entire gender.
What I hope is that gamers come to understand Ms. Sarkeesian's opinions are not attacks on games, gaming, or gamers. She should be viewed as a light in the dark, we might not like the cockroaches that scurry away when she shines here light. But, she isn't there to chastise us for the cockroaches, she is there to say, "I see interesting things it is common to see in books, films and society...do you see that too?" Not once has she attacked games, she has only shined a light in the dark corners and asked us to have the bravery to LOOK. The fact so many gamers get angry when asked to 'look' or choose to looks away is not her fault.
Wonderful blog, Elsa! I definitely agree that the representation of females in games should not be left to the opinions of one woman. This rings true for any group of people. If someone asked me how gay men wanted to see gay characters portrayed in video games, I wouldn't be able to give them an answer, because my opinions definitely would not reflect every other gay person's opinion. You'd have to ask everyone, or at least a large number of us.
Also, I'd always wondered what you looked like! Somehow I'd never seen a picture of you before now. You look great, by the way :)
Also, I'd always wondered what you looked like! Somehow I'd never seen a picture of you before now. You look great, by the way :)
@Stephen and MK... I'm not attacking Ms. Sarkeesian... I do believe that her videos will hold the same entertainment/educational value as other web series like the well known one's noted in my blog which do examine gaming issues and evoke discussion (in particular Extra Credits)... my concern is that developers possibly aren't differentiating between creating female characters in games that will appeal to female gamers (or potential female gamers) vs. the creation of female character that might be praised by media critics. These are just two very different things and I wish that developers would actually talk to the demographic because I suspect they might be surprised by what they find.
Again, I have no issue with what Ms. Sarkeesian is doing and I don't think she actually is projecting herself as an expert on what women want regarding female game characters... but instead this role may well be thrust upon her and I do think that it's a bit dangerous for developers or publishers to think this way.
@johann... to continue from my above comment, I also don't think that having a single female on the development team will produce any better results. It's the same as asking a gay male on the development team to create a gay game character... his creation will not encompass the diversity of what gay men want to see in the creation of gay characters. Larger surveys might simply result in more points of commonality. While diversity in the development team is definitely a positive step, my point is that the internet now provides tools for developers to reach out to large numbers of their potential audience. They just don't seem to be using these tools to any large degree (though I guess they do get some ingame metrics regarding things like what percentage of players chose femshep over maleshep... but does this break down to what percentage of females chose to play as female vs the percentage of males that chose to play as female?)
@Glowbear... Green Lantern Ring! LOL! Yeah, I'm not sure why Bungie consulted with her... and again, if it was to have female characters that might be praised by media critics, that's fine... but if Bungie wants to attract more female gamers to their games (or please existing female gamers) then it really just seems better for them to talk to us - a lot of us.
@bbain... exactly!! While gay gamers aren't specifically identified on their gaming profiles... a site like GayGamer.net might be a place to start... not speaking to one person there... but instead asking permission to use the user-base as a starting point for survey data. (and I picked that picture because it's not a close up and doesn't show my wrinkles... and I dyed the gray from my hair for PAX! LOL!)
@JustKarol, yeah, her videos are fine. While I didn't find the few I saw to be particularly educational in terms of quantitative data, they were somewhat entertaining and do evoke thought.
@Panzadolphin... the unfortunate part is that I don't know that she intended to be the squeaky wheel - but due to the backlash against her she likely will become one now.
@Handy... the thing is that women make up a very large proportion of casual gamers... if they can convert that demographic to becoming a part of the gaming market where they pay for games - that means more money for the industry and likely more diverse games for all of us to choose from. I personally don't think they need to make "girl games" but simply change the marketing and enhance aspects of games that both men and women like - like clothing options... oh, and houses! I bet most of us (male and female) spend a lot of time earning money to buy houses in games like Skyrim... and then decorating them LOL !! :)
@TheManchild... Maybe it's because I'm a bit of a stats-person... but I do think that statistics are more representative and can better bring out commonalities... things that would appeal to both genders - thereby creating games that not only sell better... but that you and your wife would like equally.
@Wrenchfarm... the incidents regarding Sarkeesian, Hepler and others are incredibly unfortunate... but seem to point to larger issues in the industry - it is indeed exhausting!
@Morty.. thanks!
@Casey... I was rushing around yesterday getting ready for a big family event (it was my Dad's 75th Birthday) otherwise I would have linked to your blog and also Verizon's blog that also discussed this topic from varying viewpoints. One thing I do love about Dtoid is that it does seem to foster an environment where discussions can take place even when people don't necessarily agree with each other.
Marketing is a topic I also have an interest in and like yourself I'm extremely surprised that there have been no studies/research done. I actually wouldn't be surprised if a game's sales could quite substantially increase by simply marketing it in a different way that appeals to a broader spectrum of the market. Ipsos Reid and other market research groups regularly do this type of thing (which ad do you prefer A or B) and it might cost a little to do the research, but might repay the costs twofold.
... again, it's reaching out for commonalities... what the majority wants.
Again, I have no issue with what Ms. Sarkeesian is doing and I don't think she actually is projecting herself as an expert on what women want regarding female game characters... but instead this role may well be thrust upon her and I do think that it's a bit dangerous for developers or publishers to think this way.
@johann... to continue from my above comment, I also don't think that having a single female on the development team will produce any better results. It's the same as asking a gay male on the development team to create a gay game character... his creation will not encompass the diversity of what gay men want to see in the creation of gay characters. Larger surveys might simply result in more points of commonality. While diversity in the development team is definitely a positive step, my point is that the internet now provides tools for developers to reach out to large numbers of their potential audience. They just don't seem to be using these tools to any large degree (though I guess they do get some ingame metrics regarding things like what percentage of players chose femshep over maleshep... but does this break down to what percentage of females chose to play as female vs the percentage of males that chose to play as female?)
@Glowbear... Green Lantern Ring! LOL! Yeah, I'm not sure why Bungie consulted with her... and again, if it was to have female characters that might be praised by media critics, that's fine... but if Bungie wants to attract more female gamers to their games (or please existing female gamers) then it really just seems better for them to talk to us - a lot of us.
@bbain... exactly!! While gay gamers aren't specifically identified on their gaming profiles... a site like GayGamer.net might be a place to start... not speaking to one person there... but instead asking permission to use the user-base as a starting point for survey data. (and I picked that picture because it's not a close up and doesn't show my wrinkles... and I dyed the gray from my hair for PAX! LOL!)
@JustKarol, yeah, her videos are fine. While I didn't find the few I saw to be particularly educational in terms of quantitative data, they were somewhat entertaining and do evoke thought.
@Panzadolphin... the unfortunate part is that I don't know that she intended to be the squeaky wheel - but due to the backlash against her she likely will become one now.
@Handy... the thing is that women make up a very large proportion of casual gamers... if they can convert that demographic to becoming a part of the gaming market where they pay for games - that means more money for the industry and likely more diverse games for all of us to choose from. I personally don't think they need to make "girl games" but simply change the marketing and enhance aspects of games that both men and women like - like clothing options... oh, and houses! I bet most of us (male and female) spend a lot of time earning money to buy houses in games like Skyrim... and then decorating them LOL !! :)
@TheManchild... Maybe it's because I'm a bit of a stats-person... but I do think that statistics are more representative and can better bring out commonalities... things that would appeal to both genders - thereby creating games that not only sell better... but that you and your wife would like equally.
@Wrenchfarm... the incidents regarding Sarkeesian, Hepler and others are incredibly unfortunate... but seem to point to larger issues in the industry - it is indeed exhausting!
@Morty.. thanks!
@Casey... I was rushing around yesterday getting ready for a big family event (it was my Dad's 75th Birthday) otherwise I would have linked to your blog and also Verizon's blog that also discussed this topic from varying viewpoints. One thing I do love about Dtoid is that it does seem to foster an environment where discussions can take place even when people don't necessarily agree with each other.
Marketing is a topic I also have an interest in and like yourself I'm extremely surprised that there have been no studies/research done. I actually wouldn't be surprised if a game's sales could quite substantially increase by simply marketing it in a different way that appeals to a broader spectrum of the market. Ipsos Reid and other market research groups regularly do this type of thing (which ad do you prefer A or B) and it might cost a little to do the research, but might repay the costs twofold.
... again, it's reaching out for commonalities... what the majority wants.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFjrbmj0CUc
We need more sexy lady-man-ladies to give their opinions too.
We need more sexy lady-man-ladies to give their opinions too.
@Elsa
I wouldn't worry about that too much. For every developer interested in hearing about how to make a decent and strong female character, there will be a bundle not interested in providing a meaningful narrative experience or are simply more interested in doing whatever they personally think is best.
As for the differences between what characters appeal to female gamers and what appeal to critics, given that Anita uses Mirror's Edge and Portal as examples I'm sure there's a big enough overlap to assuage that fear.
I honestly don't know how Anita's trip to Bungie went, what she suggested to them or what they came away with. That being said, I doubt she lead them by the nose.
I wouldn't worry about that too much. For every developer interested in hearing about how to make a decent and strong female character, there will be a bundle not interested in providing a meaningful narrative experience or are simply more interested in doing whatever they personally think is best.
As for the differences between what characters appeal to female gamers and what appeal to critics, given that Anita uses Mirror's Edge and Portal as examples I'm sure there's a big enough overlap to assuage that fear.
I honestly don't know how Anita's trip to Bungie went, what she suggested to them or what they came away with. That being said, I doubt she lead them by the nose.
@Stephen... even if she told them to include a female option in every online shooter game (which you know I would love!) I'd still be pissed that devs don't seem to bother talking to their own fanbase of females that play their game for insight into what they want... or more generalized surveys of female gamers to attract more female gamers to their games.
It's nothing to do with her... it's the fact that devs in general have the tools to talk directly to demographics they may want to increase... but they rarely seem to bother doing so. :(
Her opinions can be valid, your opinions on female game characters can be valid... but what might attract more females to a game might be something totally different than what any of us perceive. The more women that game... well frankly, that's the way that the sexism and misogyny in the industry will be eventually be eradicated.
It's nothing to do with her... it's the fact that devs in general have the tools to talk directly to demographics they may want to increase... but they rarely seem to bother doing so. :(
Her opinions can be valid, your opinions on female game characters can be valid... but what might attract more females to a game might be something totally different than what any of us perceive. The more women that game... well frankly, that's the way that the sexism and misogyny in the industry will be eventually be eradicated.
It's late and I pretty much have nothing to add. Instead I'll hold up my drink and say, "a job well done!"
What Bbain and everyone else said, no single person can represent a whole demographic. Also you look great Elsa , thanks for another well written blog!
Y'know what's really sad? When people bitched about Sarkessian asking for money to do the show. People do this with Kickstarter constantly (SEE: Blame Society Films doing a Kickstarter for their "Beer and Board Games" show, strictly for the purpose of purchasing the aforementioned items for that show!), I don't see why her offering was any different.
Yeah, we need to get more women involved in video games in general. The only way we'll weed out the skimpy chick outfits is when we start having more prominent women in game design.
Yeah, we need to get more women involved in video games in general. The only way we'll weed out the skimpy chick outfits is when we start having more prominent women in game design.
A very good blog post with strong points about how to develop a female audience for gaming. There is a bit of a disconnect, though, because that's not necessarily Anita's goal and may not be the developers' goals either. Her Kickstarter is for a content analysis, which is a type of academic study, on the content of women in video games. She plans to look over some portion of gaming's library and pinpoint areas where they misrepresent women. The primary goal of the project is not to change developers' opinions or the games themselves, but rather raise discussion about gender roles in gaming and how they may or may not be harmful.
A company like Bungie can use her analysis to develop characters inside of or challenging certain roles to make them more memorable. Think about how often Jade from Beyond Good and Evil gets mentioned when talking about women in video games, for example. It may not have translated to sales, but it helped make the character stick in people's minds years later.
It's worth mentioning that Anita is as much of a gamer as you or I. She's planning the series because she loves the industry but is distracted by many of the female characters they present. I imagine the last thing she would want, as with most media critics, is for her voice to be the sole representation of an entire gender.
A company like Bungie can use her analysis to develop characters inside of or challenging certain roles to make them more memorable. Think about how often Jade from Beyond Good and Evil gets mentioned when talking about women in video games, for example. It may not have translated to sales, but it helped make the character stick in people's minds years later.
It's worth mentioning that Anita is as much of a gamer as you or I. She's planning the series because she loves the industry but is distracted by many of the female characters they present. I imagine the last thing she would want, as with most media critics, is for her voice to be the sole representation of an entire gender.
Good read! I agree that its frustrating when the female audience isn't listened to. I don't want to be judgemental towards Ms. Sarkeesian, as I'm not familiar with her, but if its true that she has little to no experience with video games then I know if I was a woman I'd want a more well-spoken female version of myself to do the job.
You've also nailed another great point, which is what women actually want. When games like Lollipop Chainsaw come out, most feminists just assume that the whole female community is offended at the first glance of cleavage. Sure there people out there sad enough to actually invest in the game just for the sex appeal alone, but I like to think that both men and women are able to view the game the right way: ironically. I still need to play it though I'm assuming the game's narrative isn't quite Shakespeare, but it was never meant to be. Its an over-the-top parody of an action game and I'm looking forward to laughing at its purposefully-crafted sillyness. Not all men are perverted sexists and not all women are offended by a female body in a game that was never meant to provide a statement on gender issues. Both parties can appreciate the humour as intended, if you give them a chance to.
Well, at least here at Destructoid we're listening to you! All those faps and positive comments keep on coming, it seems. It may not be the world yet, but clearly the gaming community agrees with your sentiment. :) Let's hope a developer reads this soon.
You've also nailed another great point, which is what women actually want. When games like Lollipop Chainsaw come out, most feminists just assume that the whole female community is offended at the first glance of cleavage. Sure there people out there sad enough to actually invest in the game just for the sex appeal alone, but I like to think that both men and women are able to view the game the right way: ironically. I still need to play it though I'm assuming the game's narrative isn't quite Shakespeare, but it was never meant to be. Its an over-the-top parody of an action game and I'm looking forward to laughing at its purposefully-crafted sillyness. Not all men are perverted sexists and not all women are offended by a female body in a game that was never meant to provide a statement on gender issues. Both parties can appreciate the humour as intended, if you give them a chance to.
Well, at least here at Destructoid we're listening to you! All those faps and positive comments keep on coming, it seems. It may not be the world yet, but clearly the gaming community agrees with your sentiment. :) Let's hope a developer reads this soon.
@Batthink... things get blown out of proportion when they hit the front page... this was just written as a personal blog, but thanks!
@Venus and Kaggen... also thanks!
@Tonic... I don't really care about her kickstarter (though I do think those people that donates solely because she was a female are somewhat sexist... I do think that a man is also quite capable of intelligently examining common themes regarding female characters in video games just as well)... and I like those skimpy chick outfits... in some games... as an option. I would hate to see them entirely disappear (though again, I prefer those outfits on more realistic body types).
@mystakin... I guess my blog came across as pissed off at Anita when in fact I just don't really care too much who she is. If developers want to consult with media experts in the creation of characters, that's fine... but I just hope that they don't think it may result in characters that appeal more to women gamers or that attract more women to their games. It just pisses me off that no developers have ever bothered with doing a broader based survey, but they seem to take the time to consult with various specialists.
Having female game characters that appeal to a broader spectrum of females may help draw more women into gaming and to that particular game. The more women that game, the less we would see of sexism and misogyny in the culture... not necessarily in the games, but at least women would have somewhat equal say (similar to TV or movies where there are women film makers, actors, critics and viewers... the media itself may still be sexist, but the culture isn't).
@Reece, I have no idea regarding her experiences as a gamer, but she doesn't seem to much like the Twilight series which has a massive female following - again differentiating between what is politically correct and what women in general may want.
Also tropes are not necessarily a bad thing. The Harlequin romance book series survived on tropes (common themes and character types). The book series was also almost entirely supported by women.
It just seems that a large scale survey would not only be interesting, but again could bring up commonalities about what women want in video games that might translate to more women gaming. It just seems a shame that nobody is doing that.
@Venus and Kaggen... also thanks!
@Tonic... I don't really care about her kickstarter (though I do think those people that donates solely because she was a female are somewhat sexist... I do think that a man is also quite capable of intelligently examining common themes regarding female characters in video games just as well)... and I like those skimpy chick outfits... in some games... as an option. I would hate to see them entirely disappear (though again, I prefer those outfits on more realistic body types).
@mystakin... I guess my blog came across as pissed off at Anita when in fact I just don't really care too much who she is. If developers want to consult with media experts in the creation of characters, that's fine... but I just hope that they don't think it may result in characters that appeal more to women gamers or that attract more women to their games. It just pisses me off that no developers have ever bothered with doing a broader based survey, but they seem to take the time to consult with various specialists.
Having female game characters that appeal to a broader spectrum of females may help draw more women into gaming and to that particular game. The more women that game, the less we would see of sexism and misogyny in the culture... not necessarily in the games, but at least women would have somewhat equal say (similar to TV or movies where there are women film makers, actors, critics and viewers... the media itself may still be sexist, but the culture isn't).
@Reece, I have no idea regarding her experiences as a gamer, but she doesn't seem to much like the Twilight series which has a massive female following - again differentiating between what is politically correct and what women in general may want.
Also tropes are not necessarily a bad thing. The Harlequin romance book series survived on tropes (common themes and character types). The book series was also almost entirely supported by women.
It just seems that a large scale survey would not only be interesting, but again could bring up commonalities about what women want in video games that might translate to more women gaming. It just seems a shame that nobody is doing that.
@Esla You're absolutely right that the best way to widen the female audience is to listen to it. At the very least, it's reassuring to know developers like Bungie may be making efforts to create better, less male-centric characters even if there is a risk of screwing it all up.
I realize your article is not an attack on Sarkeesian, but as @Reece sort of shows(not trying to accuse, just making a point), there's a lot of confusion about who she really is.
I realize your article is not an attack on Sarkeesian, but as @Reece sort of shows(not trying to accuse, just making a point), there's a lot of confusion about who she really is.
Why weren't you asked, Elsa? You sound reasonable and credible, and if you're ticking off an outreach checklist, there usually isn't a space for reasonable person of the female persuasion.
Now Ms. Sarkeesian, after watching her videos that bemoan the color of Legos as if a purple Lego is a subliminal trigger to force young girls to change their life aspiration to be a man'a object, meets a criteria on those outreach checklists, that of crazed howler monkey(female). She's relevant because she has an Internet footprint and they consider her some sort of opinion leader, and people seldom become Internet relevant for being reasonable and sane.
Now Ms. Sarkeesian, after watching her videos that bemoan the color of Legos as if a purple Lego is a subliminal trigger to force young girls to change their life aspiration to be a man'a object, meets a criteria on those outreach checklists, that of crazed howler monkey(female). She's relevant because she has an Internet footprint and they consider her some sort of opinion leader, and people seldom become Internet relevant for being reasonable and sane.
It might take you 'til you're 80 (you'll still be gaming then, right?), but I have a feeling you'll get your voice heard eventually :)
Elsa
I never said you were attacking her I was just making an observation. Yes, my observation didn't include an answer to your question "What about ME...", but when do I ever answer your questions in my replies...I'm too infatuated with my own ideas. ;-)
Now, if you want to have your opinions addressed by game companies my advice would be to join some sort of 'advisory panel for gamers'. ;-) Or start you own LLC (Limited Liability Corporation) in Canada which specializes in providing advice to game developers...I'm sure you'd love to leave retirement behind to run this LLC full time.
I never said you were attacking her I was just making an observation. Yes, my observation didn't include an answer to your question "What about ME...", but when do I ever answer your questions in my replies...I'm too infatuated with my own ideas. ;-)
Now, if you want to have your opinions addressed by game companies my advice would be to join some sort of 'advisory panel for gamers'. ;-) Or start you own LLC (Limited Liability Corporation) in Canada which specializes in providing advice to game developers...I'm sure you'd love to leave retirement behind to run this LLC full time.
If I have anything to do with it, I'll get your voice heard! It is incredibly ridiculous how developers never care to ask actual gamers about games, but this really does go a step beyond. It figures that corporations would treat women differently.
I think the thing about feminists versus non-feminist women is that feminists make the most noise, and they discount the thoughts of non-feminist women as ignorant or outdated.
Also, I love chainmail bikinis.
Also, I love chainmail bikinis.
@mystakin... yeah, at least the effort is there on Bungie's part!
@UltraOscariout... LOL!
@Andy... yeah, it would indeed be nice for gamers to have a voice and not just female gamers, but gamers in general. I do think surveys can lead to better products. I love FPS games and a lot of current FPS games simply can't compete with COD... but I bet surveys would show things like the way the guns handle (controls) and ease of getting into a game as some of the top reasons people play the game (not the graphics as some other devs seem to think). A survey could lead to more successful games for devs.
@MK... LMAO! yeah, what a concept... an "advisory panel of gamers"! Sony really dropped the ball on getting rid of GAP! I personally have no interest in going back into the workforce full time.... but I do think that there is the start of a kickstarter there for somebody.
@Kingsigy... got your tweet (in my email... I'm still not overly comfortable with Twitter itself though I'll try and take the time to respond to you and figure it out in case you miss this!). Anyway, thanks... and yeah, it would be awesome if devs started looking at doing decent surveys for more data.
@dare... feminists do tend to make the most noise, and therein lies my concern that developers may interpret their noise to be representative of females in general. (and nice to see another fan of the chainmail bikini! LOL!)
@UltraOscariout... LOL!
@Andy... yeah, it would indeed be nice for gamers to have a voice and not just female gamers, but gamers in general. I do think surveys can lead to better products. I love FPS games and a lot of current FPS games simply can't compete with COD... but I bet surveys would show things like the way the guns handle (controls) and ease of getting into a game as some of the top reasons people play the game (not the graphics as some other devs seem to think). A survey could lead to more successful games for devs.
@MK... LMAO! yeah, what a concept... an "advisory panel of gamers"! Sony really dropped the ball on getting rid of GAP! I personally have no interest in going back into the workforce full time.... but I do think that there is the start of a kickstarter there for somebody.
@Kingsigy... got your tweet (in my email... I'm still not overly comfortable with Twitter itself though I'll try and take the time to respond to you and figure it out in case you miss this!). Anyway, thanks... and yeah, it would be awesome if devs started looking at doing decent surveys for more data.
@dare... feminists do tend to make the most noise, and therein lies my concern that developers may interpret their noise to be representative of females in general. (and nice to see another fan of the chainmail bikini! LOL!)
@Elsa
Twitter isn't too hard to get the hang of. It's just a completely unintuitive way of communication. I don't understand why 140 characters is the limit, but whatever. Just lets me shout more curse words to get my point across quicker...god dammit, haha.
Twitter isn't too hard to get the hang of. It's just a completely unintuitive way of communication. I don't understand why 140 characters is the limit, but whatever. Just lets me shout more curse words to get my point across quicker...god dammit, haha.
Okay, a little off topic, but holy crap Elsa I hope your surgery goes well, just saw your comment on my last blog, if it hasn't already been adopted, I'd love to take your avatar to PAX, although I'll be honest I have no idea what that involves, but I'm more than down to make it happen
Om Nom... that would be AWESOME!! I have a decent pic of my avatar and all you have to do is print it out on a piece of paper... then take pictures of me in compromising positions with other Dtoiders. It's also a great way to get to know staff or any celebrities you see cause you can pull the old "could you pose for a picture with this avatar?... she usually comes to PAX but had to have surgery this year and is recovering"... you get the pity thing going and it's pretty rare for someone to refuse. :)
I'll dig around in my computer and send you a better picture of my avatar! Yeah!!! I'm adopted!
(oh, and you don't have to mention that "recovery" from surgery usually means lying around in bed playing tons of video games day and night! LOL! ... lots of people would kill for that!)
I'll dig around in my computer and send you a better picture of my avatar! Yeah!!! I'm adopted!
(oh, and you don't have to mention that "recovery" from surgery usually means lying around in bed playing tons of video games day and night! LOL! ... lots of people would kill for that!)
This thing is busted, it posted an empty comment.
Anyway, @Om Nom, make sure you print Elsa's avatar out above a MAG logo so people recognize her.
Anyway, @Om Nom, make sure you print Elsa's avatar out above a MAG logo so people recognize her.
We are some how moving backwards at the speed of light. Mainly do to the concept of the Gamer Girl. Some how no one realizes that both male and female gamers want the same thing. They want good games. COD, Gears of War, Tomb Raider, Elder Scrolls and the Sims each have close to a 50/50 male to female ratio, not because they aimed them at one or the other, but because they are good games. It's impossible to make a game for one demographic. I personally like red headed female characters, but I'll still play a game with a character that isn't red headed. We all compromise. They just need to make the game they want to make and we will buy it.
@tonicmole... and this is one of the theories that I think a larger survey would prove. Women don't necessarily want games with empowered politically correct heroines... they just want good games (though possibly with more opportunities to play as our own gender, which is a minor thing that could be added to many existing games). I also think that marketing strategies for existing games might change if developers realized that they could reach a potential female audience with their game.. by simply tweaking the marketing slightly to not be as specifically aimed at males.
@Dare... LOL! Yeah, I'm trying to break my MAG addiction though... I just bought Starhawk and I'm hopeful!
@Dare... LOL! Yeah, I'm trying to break my MAG addiction though... I just bought Starhawk and I'm hopeful!
@Elsa Lucky for you, Dust 514 feels a LOT like MAG so far in the beta (but with a much nicer art design, also SPACE!). If you haven't had a chance to play the silly quest in @Home to get it, DO IT. Once this thing launches, and it being free, we might get a big group up in here.
@Dare... not sure if you'll see this or not, but I got into the Dust beta for the weekend and really liked it!! It's pretty complex in terms of the ISK/skills, etc. but overall it seems that the game has a ton of potential!
(and I see that they also have a female character option, though it's currently grayed out - but this is the type of thing more games need to do. It's simple, but people like to have a sense of immersion with their FPS character especially in a complex game like Dust with longevity... because I suspect that you're right and this game may well break my MAG addiction!)
(and I see that they also have a female character option, though it's currently grayed out - but this is the type of thing more games need to do. It's simple, but people like to have a sense of immersion with their FPS character especially in a complex game like Dust with longevity... because I suspect that you're right and this game may well break my MAG addiction!)
