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... but this woman does! I love playing open world WRPG games and recently completed Fallout: New Vegas and I'm just currently finishing Divinity 2. Both games have shitty maps. I spent many frustrating hours in Fallout, heading for a map location only to find that it was apparently in the middle of a mountain that wasn't climbable, so I would have to slowly make my way around the entire mountain (or mountain range) looking for a path or way into the center of this inaccessible area. Yes, I often discovered new things along the way and would get sidetracked... but only to go back to circling that mountain range once again (often to discover that the only way to the marker was to take a cave entrance located elsewhere... crap!). I do love those helpful NPC's who offer to "let me mark this on your map for you"... but really, couldn't they offer a little more information about how to get there! At least in Fallout there is that perk you can take that shows all the locations on the map... so many little distractions, with many turning out to be very unimpressive tourist stops... yeah, the equivalent to seeing the World's Largest Ball of String.
That "El Dorado Dry Lake" ... not really a good tourist stop! In Divinity 2 it's even worse. Rarely does anything appear on your map until you actually find it. In particular, when you are in your dragon form there are loads of cliffs with small areas and you have to land on to see if there is anything of actual interest at that location. I spent a lot of time morphing in and out of Dragon form and becoming anal retentive about examining each location where I could land (and there were a LOT of them). There were few if any quest markers on the map and once again they tended to be a very vague pointer in the general direction with little in the way of specifics. Worst yet was that quest givers weren't noted on the map so trying to turn in a quest and get your reward often entailed visiting tons of old locations to try and remember where in hell that NPC who wanted you to recover his dead Mamma's earrings was! Designing maps for large open world games is an art form. Putting everything on the map with easy directions destroys the sense of exploration, however on the other hand, putting a location on the map with no obvious way to get to it can lead to frustration. Having too many locations on a map can lead to being overwhelmed, while too few things on the map means why even bother with a damn map? On looking at Skyrim's new 3D mapping system I think that hopefully they've got it right. When one of those helpful NPC's marks your map, you'll at least be able to see a possible path of how to get there... taking a long or short route is up to you, but finding a location should no longer be a frustrating quest of uselessly wandering around and around the bottom of a mountain range.
The ideal situation is being able to see what you want to see on a map. I like games that give you options... little tick boxes of what you want to see. Do you want to see towns... voila! Quest locations... there ya go! Everything and anything... that too. If you only want the main quest location and leave everything else to exploration, then that option should be there too. I also like the option of seeing what locations I've already been too... and which one's I haven't been to. It's too easy to forget where you've been and what you've done. Maps are important in games, not just in open world RPG games, but also in shooter games. In MAG I find I am continually keeping an eye on my mini-map, but additionally I flip to the full map to see enemy/ally movements. When first playing MAG, using the full map was truly essential in learning the basic map layouts and in many shooter games, this is a good habit to acquire because it gives a more overall sense of what is happening in the game and can allow for better strategic decisions in addition to better seeing where objectives might be.
Kill the red dots! Minimaps are also essential. In both RPG's and shooter games they often give indications of enemies in the area. Gamers that play shooter games generally become reliant on their minimap and often end up saving their ass by seeing that sneaky little enemy coming up behind them on the mini-map. One thing I dislike about shooter games though is that often the minimap is not well defined in terms of what shows up and what doesn't. In some games you show up if you are firing a weapon, in others if you are running. In MAG I still have no idea if I appear on an enemies minimap when I'm running or firing a silenced weapon while wearing a fully perked out sensor jammer. The minimap in shooters is such an essential tool that somewhere it should be clearly defined what and when marks show up on the minimap! I admit it. I've become a bit map-addicted. A great map makes me squeal with girlish delight at how awesome a tool it is. A bad map generally has me haunting the internet looking up locations I need to find. I think that people read maps differently though. I NEVER use the North, South, East, West thing but instead use left or right (or straight or behind me), so a triangle marker showing the direction I'm facing is crucial. I use landmarks a lot and tend to remember where something is in relation to something else. I rather wish that noticeable land marks were more often noted on maps and I think this is something that Fallout tried to incorporate, but they should have just noted the location as a landmark rather than an actual "location" - thus avoiding the tourist syndrome of disappointment on reaching the location to find virtually nothing there. In shooter maps it would be nice if buildings were noted... so I can see I have to go left at the church... or so that I can better tell my teammates that there is a sniper somewhere to the left of the church. Sometimes the buildings are nondescript and they need a descriptor so that everyone can see the location and know which building you are talking about! This is particularly maddening in shooter games where on the map all the buildings rather look the same and descriptions started to get convoluted... and men start to sound like women and saying things like "it's that dusty building with the patio facing our spawn that has a hole in the wall between the two rooms and has that room with the linoleum floor... but the guy was up on the area that has the wood floors". Really? Wouldn't it just be easier if it was called "building A" on a map!
So... describe where that sniper is! After playing with the terrible map on Divinity, I can't wait to luxuriate in the awesomeness of the new Skyrim 3D map - though I hope more locations are actually labeled than what is shown! I do wish that devs would include those wonderful fold-out maps in game cases again - I miss those. Alternatively, putting downloadable maps on their websites would be a nice option - especially given the increased use of tablets like the iPad that can be tucked beside the chair as easy reference while I'm gaming. Maps... love them or hate them, they are an intrinsic part of gaming - even for men.
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I hate that! I did stuff like that all the time when playing World of Warcraft. The dot marking the place I needed to be would always be so close! Like a few steps, according to the map. But instead, I'd have to trek around the entire mountain looking for a path up or a cave entrance, all the while wondering if the spot was underground or on top of the mountain. Thanks for all the help, stupid map!
But yeah, my sense of direction in a big game can sometimes be a little whack, and I often forget where I've been and where I've yet to go, as well. I'm really hoping Skyrim's mapping lives up to my expectations. (and I've done that making my way around a damn mountain that's not climbable countless times!)
I don't find myself using the map in COD as much as I use to, (mainly just use the mini map on the HUD) but I remember it made learning quite easier when I first started playing the game. To be honest, I'm not sure you can even pull up a larger image of the map anymore?
Excellent blog, per usual, Elsa!
I remember when a friend mentioned an area in a game in which there was 'water that pulls you'. It took me some thinking to realize he meant a river with rushing water.
@Ali... apparently we've all had that same experience in Fallout! LOL!
@Jaded, in some cases I've even not bothered turning in a quest because I just wanted to get on with the game and not revisit every location for the paltry stats boost the minor quest would likely give me... a good map would allieviate that frustration.
I'd be surprised if the maps weren't available somewhere in COD... though I guess if they are small areas it might not really be needed.
@Occams... yeah, I guess we should appreciate the good maps when we get them... I bet devs don't hear about their maps too much, yet they make a huge difference to a game!
@bbain... I especially hated trecking around and around the mountain only to later discover the hidden cave entrance located elsewhere... just point to the damn cave as the quest marker! (height is also an issue because you're right, sometimes it's a map marker below rather than on top of something!)
@Handy... awesome!! I still have my Baldur's Gate map of the world. They were such a handy reference! Nice to see that Skyrim is keeping to that tradition.
@Andy... yeah, I started writing this blog because of frustration with Divinity 2's map... and started to realize how intrinsic maps in general are to my gaming experiences!
In RPGs, though, I actually prefer the static maps you so abhor. That sense of wonder when you finally locate the correct path is awesome. While I do agree that NPCs should give better directions, I wouldn't want my maps any other way.
Now Invisible War, on the other hand, has some of the worst maps I've ever seen.
Since games are already digitized, incorporating GIS & spatial analysis techniques really should be pretty simple. A digital elevation model or even contour lines would have alleviated a lot of the problems with Fallout's navigation, though I guess that comes at the cost that most "hidden" mountain paths would be revealed. Shooters would work well if their maps where in a grid system, with the cell coordinates of the object your crosshairs are pointing at being shown on your HUD (though determining the grid cell size becomes a bit of an issue then). One of the most annoying games for navigation is Borderlands, which I've been playing again. No minimap is a huge pain in the ass which is made worse by the fact that you can't even set up waypoints on the way to your destination.
@Celica.. maps really are works of art!... also... everything you said!! :)
@Caitlin... NeverWinter Nights... such an AWESOME game!! I too may still have my map around here some place!
@KingSigy... as noted, I bought the maps for Warhawk because of the pickups... but I also looked up the maps for Killzone 2 to find out exactly where the objectives spawned... for me it just helped. I do agree that 2D maps aren't very useful in a 3D world, but they do help me. Regarding RPG's, I really do think they should be customizable. I don't like to see EVERYTHING... but I do like to see the quest objective and other important locations.
@Smurfee... yeah, a lot of the maps do suck. :(
@Atlas... LOL! I remember Zork and how everything was North, South, East, West, etc and you had to type it all... I also remember drawing my own maps so I would know where stuff was! I probably spent as much time making my map as playing the game! (and this was before the "move right" thing!)
@randombullseye... yeah, the whole thing of men not looking at maps - I don't think it's really true, but the asking for directions thing... there might be some truth in that! :)
@Strider... yeah, sometimes seeing something on a map and trying to get to it is awesome!! (unless it's the actual objective and you don't want to do the tourist thing). I bet the ramp was epic though and well worth it!
It moves around in the direction you're facing, so when you're trying to triangulate your position with landmarks, you sort of have to stand in one place, memorise the landscape, then try and figure out which bit matches up best.
I suppose the point of that was to show how completely lost all of your characters were, but you really needed a crash course in orientation if you wanted to survive. I swear, 15 of the 20 hours I put into that game was just me wandering around, Blair Witch style.
That said, I love a game where the map is integral to planning, like Rainbow Six, because despite knowing the floorplan, it's a whole different ball game when you're on the ground. I love those moments where someone says, "Oh, this is an out of date map we've found" and you're relying on your wits and the scraps you know to get you through safely. "Rug pulling" is such a great gaming device that needs to be used more.
I almost (almost!) hate to beat the Dark Souls horse further, but I have come to really like its total lack of any kind of map. The world is pretty large, and after playing a while I now have a mental roadmap of pretty much every inch of the place. It kind of forces that on the player, and it has a certain satisfaction to it. My wife of course is like, "god how do you know where you're going?!"
They don't love you like i love you,
Wait,
They don't love you like i love you,
Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaapps wait,
Great blawg
So that's why I failed at MAG my first outing. I was following Elsa's directions instead of looking at the map.
Joking...well mostly joking. I really should have been paying a lot more attention to the map.
... you did fantastic on your first outing... especially since we immediately dumped you into Domination mode!! It can be really overwhelming at first.
@Epic... :)
@Knutaf... in looking for maps on the interwebs for pics for this blog I saw a lot of maps for Dark Souls... so apparently some people like maps for that game! LOL!
@Henriquegds... yeah, it seems that lots of people seem to agree with me regarding the general dreckitude of Fallout's maps! :)
@Lenigod.... I too love landmarks, but where all the buildings tend to look the same it would be nice if they named a few of them to give us those landmarks... otherwise I guess we all tend ot get into that verbal shorthand that only our friend's understand and simply leave others scratching their heads! (like the "shitty spot"!) Even if they made some of the buildings more obvious and had signs right on them... bakery.... or whatever, then it would negate the sameness of them all.
@Stevil.... yeah, bad maps mean a lot of wasted time... and I love the idea of the "wrong map"! :)
@Kaggen... yeah, I do love the exploring part and finding new locations... but after wandering around a mountain range several times and seeing the same locations... and still no way to get to the marker....ARRRRRGHHHH!
so what do you think of Divinity 2? ( except for the shitty map :p )
It's made by a Belgian company, I love it ( though as you say the map is horrible, divinity-wiki to the rescue for me often just to find out to whom a certain quest belongs :-) ) I really like the battletower-concept and of course the whole turning into a firespitting-dragon thing as well :p
I have to say though, in Fallout 3 ( haven't played Vegas yet ) I really like the 'local' maps and how they incorporate the quest-pointer with the red/green-arrow depending on how many doors are between you and the target.
What Bethesda made is a fun technical trick, but not very useful map.