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"small vocal minority of gaming culture that is misogynistic.
I can't say for sure whether this is true, but this is just my personal experience based on anecdotal evidence (it doesn't mean it isn't a problem...I've literally seen women patronized at conventions). Recently, I've seen a lot of non-gamers call "gamers" out for being hateful misogynistic animals -- and not offhanded comments regarding a few people -- I mean blanket statements regarding the entire community.
These things happen in any medium, not just gaming, yes. But personally, I'm happy to call myself a gamer because of people like you Elsa. For the most part, the vast majority of gamer friends and acquaintances I have are respectful people.
I know people might misconstrue this to somehow mean that I'm "enabling the problem," but I'm most definitely not. I write to my congressman when opressive laws threaten society, I support my friends (female, gay, minority) when they need it, and I give to organizations that seek to strengthen freedoms for said groups. I do my part.
I'm just proud to be a gamer. That's just how I feel.
I can't say for sure whether this is true, but this is just my personal experience based on anecdotal evidence (it doesn't mean it isn't a problem...I've literally seen women patronized at conventions). Recently, I've seen a lot of non-gamers call "gamers" out for being hateful misogynistic animals -- and not offhanded comments regarding a few people -- I mean blanket statements regarding the entire community.
These things happen in any medium, not just gaming, yes. But personally, I'm happy to call myself a gamer because of people like you Elsa. For the most part, the vast majority of gamer friends and acquaintances I have are respectful people.
I know people might misconstrue this to somehow mean that I'm "enabling the problem," but I'm most definitely not. I write to my congressman when opressive laws threaten society, I support my friends (female, gay, minority) when they need it, and I give to organizations that seek to strengthen freedoms for said groups. I do my part.
I'm just proud to be a gamer. That's just how I feel.
I don't always read your stuff, but I really enjoyed this one a lot. I thought the way you typed those words together was really cool.
This was funny (in an enjoyable way). :D
I kinda wanted to emphasize your last point though, about gaming culture reflecting our larger societal values. I completely agree! Sometimes I find myself miffed when playing a video game that highlights some sort of social or sexual or gendered bias... but then I always have to remember that these things are not "invading" my fun-world of gaming, but are real issues that I have to carefully navigate throughout all of life (and I'm saying this in the least cynical way possible).
I like exploring gender roles in video games, and how the structure of video games impacts the way we perceive gender as socially-constructed. I would consider myself a feminist (although I prefer the term "equalist," however awkward that sounds), and would absolutely *love* it if the gender-binary (not just in video games, but in life) were deconstructed further, but I totally get your frustration directed at those mentioned in this article.
tl;dr summary of comment - Nice article!
I kinda wanted to emphasize your last point though, about gaming culture reflecting our larger societal values. I completely agree! Sometimes I find myself miffed when playing a video game that highlights some sort of social or sexual or gendered bias... but then I always have to remember that these things are not "invading" my fun-world of gaming, but are real issues that I have to carefully navigate throughout all of life (and I'm saying this in the least cynical way possible).
I like exploring gender roles in video games, and how the structure of video games impacts the way we perceive gender as socially-constructed. I would consider myself a feminist (although I prefer the term "equalist," however awkward that sounds), and would absolutely *love* it if the gender-binary (not just in video games, but in life) were deconstructed further, but I totally get your frustration directed at those mentioned in this article.
tl;dr summary of comment - Nice article!
It's great that you don't experience harassment and perceive sexism as much as most other women in the gaming sphere. It really is. I wish your circumstance was the majority. But sadly that's not the case.
The thing is, although you can post this blog and get a lot of praise and support good time fun, most of the time when someone posts an article/blog with the opposite message - that they feel oppressed and bullied - there will be an abundance of readers who attack the author for their audacity. And they use blogs like this to invalidate the message of that blog and to disregard the feelings and experiences of that author: "a different woman disagrees with you, therefore your claims of misogyny are unfounded."
"I thought gaming was freedom... to be a different age, gender, race or even sexuality in a virtual world if I wanted (recently I've had several lesbian experiences!)"
Oh no, I wish but no. So many devs and publishers are of the opinion that different is bad - players can't identify with different, can't relate to different. And unfortunately, their estimations are accurate for a lot of players. Many players think that to play as a female character is insulting and beneath them. Hell, many players can't relate to protagonists of colour, even if they're male. Sound ridiculous but some people writhe at the thought of Link being given a dark skin tone, and that design decision would only make sense if the game dealt with civil rights issues or other 'not normal' themes.
Last point - I'll make it brief because I could talk about this all day - sexism doesn't only manifest in the presence of sexist (or gendered) language. Sexism is often subconscious, often underlying, and often manifests in underhanded ways. There's a study doing the rounds of how employers disregarded female applicants on the basis of lack of competency while favouring male applicants with the exact same applications as the women, except for the difference of gender. It's worth a read: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/
Also, the idea of Monngoose getting a message implying the diminshment of his penis strikes me as particularly funny. Not because I have the same inside information as you, but because I can't imagine him abiding by the intended reaction to such a message.
"where are the vagina guns???" made me laugh so hard I cried.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Elsa. I was wondering when you'd weigh in :)
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Elsa. I was wondering when you'd weigh in :)
@Byron
"Many players think that to play as a female character is insulting and beneath them. Hell, many players can't relate to protagonists of colour, even if they're male. Sound ridiculous but some people writhe at the thought of Link being given a dark skin tone, and that design decision would only make sense if the game dealt with civil rights issues or other 'not normal' themes."
Really? I've never seen or heard of any of this.
"Many players think that to play as a female character is insulting and beneath them. Hell, many players can't relate to protagonists of colour, even if they're male. Sound ridiculous but some people writhe at the thought of Link being given a dark skin tone, and that design decision would only make sense if the game dealt with civil rights issues or other 'not normal' themes."
Really? I've never seen or heard of any of this.
soooo, do you want that seat as president of the world now?
look at that folks, that's 50 years of sexiness. Some call it "Knowledge".
look at that folks, that's 50 years of sexiness. Some call it "Knowledge".
Woah lady. Who the fuck let you out the kitc.... Oh shit guys, this one is self aware! Take her down, time for re-education.
Awesome blog Elsa :)
Awesome blog Elsa :)
""Many players think that to play as a female character is insulting and beneath them. Hell, many players can't relate to protagonists of colour, even if they're male. Sound ridiculous but some people writhe at the thought of Link being given a dark skin tone, and that design decision would only make sense if the game dealt with civil rights issues or other 'not normal' themes."
I literally don't know anyone who thinks this, and I know people who are borderline racist. Are there facts or studies to back this up? Specifically related to gaming?
I literally don't know anyone who thinks this, and I know people who are borderline racist. Are there facts or studies to back this up? Specifically related to gaming?
Also, there are no vagina guns because instead of shooting, they would just turn on the user and complain about how he pulled the trigger too hard and never WANTS to go visit her parents. Nobody wants that. Plus 3 - 5 days a month you have plug the barrel and walk on eggshells around it, lest it shoots you.
I'm done. Elsa, we need to play Borderlands for more than 5m later. I'll hit ya up.
I'm done. Elsa, we need to play Borderlands for more than 5m later. I'll hit ya up.
"My own reality is that I never felt repressed in the gaming world until the gaming (and non-gaming) press and feminists came along to inform me that I was indeed being repressed, oppressed and suppressed."
I know, this was all news to me, as well! An enjoyable blog, Elsa.
Stephen: I don't think anybody is arguing that sexism doesn't exist in the real world, and that it doesn't sometimes manifest itself in the gaming arena. Because as you say "some people" are sexist. Emphasis on the some.
There is a lot of harassment in online venues like Xbox live, but it's not just women. Women get harassed for being women, men get harassed about penis size and homosexuality, or for just being shitty players. My xbox live avatar is female and I often use a mic giving away my femaleness, and I've actually never received a harassing message of any kind. Now I know that is not the norm because my male friends get messages from sore losers calling them gay or asking how much cock they suck. Is any of right? Nope. But it's there and we should probably work on addressing sportsmanship and courtesy as a whole, not parsing it into gender. Or, people need to get thicker skin and learn to ignore neglected 12 year olds, either way. Additionally, I have been playing video games for over 20 years now and I can never remember a time when I had so much freedom in character creation as what I can get now with the RPGs available. It's not perfect, but we really do have so many options and developers are getting better. I couldn't care less if some dudes think it's not cool to play as a girl, that's their call. I prefer to play as a female character, so hey, I'd be a hypocrite if I called a guy out for the same thing.
But, that's all just my opinion.
It's also not Elsa's fault if people do cite her blog to support their own agenda.
I know, this was all news to me, as well! An enjoyable blog, Elsa.
Stephen: I don't think anybody is arguing that sexism doesn't exist in the real world, and that it doesn't sometimes manifest itself in the gaming arena. Because as you say "some people" are sexist. Emphasis on the some.
There is a lot of harassment in online venues like Xbox live, but it's not just women. Women get harassed for being women, men get harassed about penis size and homosexuality, or for just being shitty players. My xbox live avatar is female and I often use a mic giving away my femaleness, and I've actually never received a harassing message of any kind. Now I know that is not the norm because my male friends get messages from sore losers calling them gay or asking how much cock they suck. Is any of right? Nope. But it's there and we should probably work on addressing sportsmanship and courtesy as a whole, not parsing it into gender. Or, people need to get thicker skin and learn to ignore neglected 12 year olds, either way. Additionally, I have been playing video games for over 20 years now and I can never remember a time when I had so much freedom in character creation as what I can get now with the RPGs available. It's not perfect, but we really do have so many options and developers are getting better. I couldn't care less if some dudes think it's not cool to play as a girl, that's their call. I prefer to play as a female character, so hey, I'd be a hypocrite if I called a guy out for the same thing.
But, that's all just my opinion.
It's also not Elsa's fault if people do cite her blog to support their own agenda.
@Arrtemis... sorry for that mental image! LOL!
@Chris... it's the entire blanket perception of gamers that annoys me. I too don't want to enable harassment in any way, but the issue just isn't a woman's issue alone.
@Stubbleman... it started as a stupid rant and just evolved. It's still a stupid rant, but I feel better for getting it out... and now I can move on to other things. :)
@vlesiditor... gaming does reflect larger societal values... but men are not the only issue. Women too contribute to much of the sexism in gaming.
@Stephen... much as we sometimes disagree, I always value and respect your words and opinion. Was that "fat ugly ass bitch" note sent to a male or female? Misogynyistic language is often used, but not necessarily used soley towards women. As you've previously noted, attributing female characteristics to men is often used as an insult in the male world because apparently being compared to a woman is somehow objectionable to some men. Also, if the recipient is female, did she ask why she got the note? I ask and most of the time it's because I've said something nasty to the note-sender.
... one woman's experience shouldn't validate or invalidate anothers. This is one of the issues I have with constantly being told that the gaming world silences women, etc, etc, etc. For some of us, the gaming world isn't at all a terrible place.
In regards to different... I was recently a black male in the Walking Dead game. Again, by concentrating on simply making diverse characters this game seems to not only have created a very different and unique protagonist (especially as we make so many decisions in the game) but most of the other characters were also well fleshed out, including the female characters. The current concentration on female characters negates the fact that most gaming characters are poorly done and that by simply creating better game characters there will be the diversity and variety that makes them better, more real, and less sexist. (and I've not read anything negative about the game... though maybe I've missed the protest over being forced to play as a black male?)
Your study also makes my point. Sexism against women is committed by both men AND women. It's also not at all restricted to just the gaming world but is more of a cultural issue. It's fine to examine this aspect of gaming in a more overall societal manner, but it seems that so often everything devolves down to "men are pigs and the video game world is misogynistic". Most of the fault lies with the press (both gaming and non-gaming)... but again, the press and how we get our information or news - it's a larger societal issue with the current focus on "edutainment" where "news" is no longer factual but instead is a mix of entertainment, opinion and a sprinkling of facts.
... and Mongoose can say some pretty nasty things when gaming - purely out of frustration, so it's not surprising that he gets the occasional nasty note.
@Chris... it's the entire blanket perception of gamers that annoys me. I too don't want to enable harassment in any way, but the issue just isn't a woman's issue alone.
@Stubbleman... it started as a stupid rant and just evolved. It's still a stupid rant, but I feel better for getting it out... and now I can move on to other things. :)
@vlesiditor... gaming does reflect larger societal values... but men are not the only issue. Women too contribute to much of the sexism in gaming.
@Stephen... much as we sometimes disagree, I always value and respect your words and opinion. Was that "fat ugly ass bitch" note sent to a male or female? Misogynyistic language is often used, but not necessarily used soley towards women. As you've previously noted, attributing female characteristics to men is often used as an insult in the male world because apparently being compared to a woman is somehow objectionable to some men. Also, if the recipient is female, did she ask why she got the note? I ask and most of the time it's because I've said something nasty to the note-sender.
... one woman's experience shouldn't validate or invalidate anothers. This is one of the issues I have with constantly being told that the gaming world silences women, etc, etc, etc. For some of us, the gaming world isn't at all a terrible place.
In regards to different... I was recently a black male in the Walking Dead game. Again, by concentrating on simply making diverse characters this game seems to not only have created a very different and unique protagonist (especially as we make so many decisions in the game) but most of the other characters were also well fleshed out, including the female characters. The current concentration on female characters negates the fact that most gaming characters are poorly done and that by simply creating better game characters there will be the diversity and variety that makes them better, more real, and less sexist. (and I've not read anything negative about the game... though maybe I've missed the protest over being forced to play as a black male?)
Your study also makes my point. Sexism against women is committed by both men AND women. It's also not at all restricted to just the gaming world but is more of a cultural issue. It's fine to examine this aspect of gaming in a more overall societal manner, but it seems that so often everything devolves down to "men are pigs and the video game world is misogynistic". Most of the fault lies with the press (both gaming and non-gaming)... but again, the press and how we get our information or news - it's a larger societal issue with the current focus on "edutainment" where "news" is no longer factual but instead is a mix of entertainment, opinion and a sprinkling of facts.
... and Mongoose can say some pretty nasty things when gaming - purely out of frustration, so it's not surprising that he gets the occasional nasty note.
@Stephen: Yes dude, there is a problem. No one can deny that. I find Elsas article so funny though, because its always from the white knights that we hear about it most it seems. Most the ladies I know that game are harrased, yes. But they either shrug it off as just more internet hate that gets spread around equally, or they take it as a challenge to whup that ignorant idiots ass. Some play games they feel represent them better. No, that's not an official study and definitely a minority. But I believe we need more strong woman in gaming. Every facet. Women like Elsa and some of my friends. Women who aren't obsessed with the war between vaginas and penises and just want live and game. I don't know if any of that made sense, just woke up.
Fapped for vagina guns.
And I got the dirtiest stares after laughing really loudly in public about your comment on the messages your husband receives. Thanks for that.
I see your point, I always get annoyed when I'm told I should be outraged about something that I'm mostly ambivalent towards. But I also get annoyed at the double-standard when it comes to male and female character designs in a number of games (men wearing full plate armor, women wearing string bikinis).
And I got the dirtiest stares after laughing really loudly in public about your comment on the messages your husband receives. Thanks for that.
I see your point, I always get annoyed when I'm told I should be outraged about something that I'm mostly ambivalent towards. But I also get annoyed at the double-standard when it comes to male and female character designs in a number of games (men wearing full plate armor, women wearing string bikinis).
"Women who aren't obsessed with the war between vaginas and penises and just want live and game. I don't know if any of that made sense, just woke up."
What of the hermaphrodites who must awaken every morning and find a battle for domination in their pants in full motion.
What of the hermaphrodites who must awaken every morning and find a battle for domination in their pants in full motion.
@Andy... yeah, that "vagina guns" term is now going to haunt me... I can't seem to get that term out of my head either!
... and yeah, I agree that I've not heard much of an issue over men being forced to play as a female in the Tomb Raider, Bayonetta or Lollipop chainsaw games. Men have often played as females in games and seem to enjoy it. Race is increasingly being given as an option for avatars in everythng from RPG games to shooter games - again, I"ve heard no complaints. Even in Borderlands where to play as a particular class you might have to play as Roland - I've not heard anything derogatory said.
@TheEvil1... not knowledge... just my own personal experience and opinion! :)
@Phil... yeah, if you can get on a bit earlier on Friday we can do FNF with Borderlands
@molmolacolacake (I still love that name! LOL!) I can't say how much your comment means to me. I really hesitated in posting this blog, but it's so nice to know I'm not alone in some of my feelings or my experiences!
... and yeah, I agree that I've not heard much of an issue over men being forced to play as a female in the Tomb Raider, Bayonetta or Lollipop chainsaw games. Men have often played as females in games and seem to enjoy it. Race is increasingly being given as an option for avatars in everythng from RPG games to shooter games - again, I"ve heard no complaints. Even in Borderlands where to play as a particular class you might have to play as Roland - I've not heard anything derogatory said.
@TheEvil1... not knowledge... just my own personal experience and opinion! :)
@Phil... yeah, if you can get on a bit earlier on Friday we can do FNF with Borderlands
@molmolacolacake (I still love that name! LOL!) I can't say how much your comment means to me. I really hesitated in posting this blog, but it's so nice to know I'm not alone in some of my feelings or my experiences!
Elsa's point on Telltale's Walking Dead just reminded me. That game is critically and commercially acclaimed, and not one person, even user comments, mentioned the inability to relate to Lee (an African American).
I really want to know if there are real studies on this now.
I really want to know if there are real studies on this now.
I see that promoting you to Subcomandante Insurgente was a very wise move on my part. You have much to offer the movement.
*Goes out of character... again*
I really love this blog. I side more with Stephen Beirne, but your arguments are great. And I love that the man-babies who cry about "misandry" haven't shown up yet. Hopefully they never do.
I want to plug Borderhouse Blog again. It's run by and for feminists, lesbians, trans, and allies. They would have strong disagreements with you, Elsa, but I think you could hold your own. I recommend checking it out, but don't ever leave us, Elsa.
*back in character*
The movement needs you.
Your leader,
Zombie Orwell
*Goes out of character... again*
I really love this blog. I side more with Stephen Beirne, but your arguments are great. And I love that the man-babies who cry about "misandry" haven't shown up yet. Hopefully they never do.
I want to plug Borderhouse Blog again. It's run by and for feminists, lesbians, trans, and allies. They would have strong disagreements with you, Elsa, but I think you could hold your own. I recommend checking it out, but don't ever leave us, Elsa.
*back in character*
The movement needs you.
Your leader,
Zombie Orwell
@stephen
jesus, where the hell do you live?! and what do people NOT hate there? do they also kick puppies while spitting on strangers faces as they pass them by?
jesus, where the hell do you live?! and what do people NOT hate there? do they also kick puppies while spitting on strangers faces as they pass them by?
@Elsa - I know men aren't the only issue (I know it's kind of default to assume I'm speaking from this position as a female, but honestly, I wasn't)... I've actually argued before that the kind of sexism and gender-binary posed by our society actually oppresses men more than women in some cases - women who display "masculine" traits generally seem to be more accepted than men who display "feminine" traits (as a general idea).
@glowbear... you're not at all helping me lose that "vagina guns" thing in my head! LOL!
@Scarritt... much of the "chainmail bikini" stuff does go back to a time when games were primarily marketed to young boys. Times have changed and while we still see those types of outfits, it's often done as a trope or tribute to those early games. Many games now tend to offer options... though I'll be honest and admit that sometimes when I'm not battling big ugly critters or bandits, I"ll change into that sleazy chainmail bikini for wandering around town, then change back into something more practical for fighting. :)
@Zombie, I've seen the Borderhouse Blog and other feminist game related sites... and I'm just gonna tell a really short story. I was diagnosed with cancer when I was in my early 20's. At one point I joined a support group. While I was with this group, the focus was on cancer... how the medical system fails us, the food we eat, the air we breathe contributed. How we felt different about ourselves, the fragility of life, how others treated us. Soon, most everything started to revolve around the cancer and it started to define who I was. I quit the group and started living life again instead of focusing on the negativity of one very small aspect of my life.
I think that my joining any sort of feminist game group would simply focus on me being a female and I would start to see misogyny and sexism everywhere... even in places where it wasn't. It's good that groups and blogs like this exist because they often do have a good point, but it's not for me. I am who I am and I'm not defined by my gender or any small or coincidental aspect of my life.... and I like it that way! :)
@Scarritt... much of the "chainmail bikini" stuff does go back to a time when games were primarily marketed to young boys. Times have changed and while we still see those types of outfits, it's often done as a trope or tribute to those early games. Many games now tend to offer options... though I'll be honest and admit that sometimes when I'm not battling big ugly critters or bandits, I"ll change into that sleazy chainmail bikini for wandering around town, then change back into something more practical for fighting. :)
@Zombie, I've seen the Borderhouse Blog and other feminist game related sites... and I'm just gonna tell a really short story. I was diagnosed with cancer when I was in my early 20's. At one point I joined a support group. While I was with this group, the focus was on cancer... how the medical system fails us, the food we eat, the air we breathe contributed. How we felt different about ourselves, the fragility of life, how others treated us. Soon, most everything started to revolve around the cancer and it started to define who I was. I quit the group and started living life again instead of focusing on the negativity of one very small aspect of my life.
I think that my joining any sort of feminist game group would simply focus on me being a female and I would start to see misogyny and sexism everywhere... even in places where it wasn't. It's good that groups and blogs like this exist because they often do have a good point, but it's not for me. I am who I am and I'm not defined by my gender or any small or coincidental aspect of my life.... and I like it that way! :)
@Elsa - I apologise profusely. You should know it's not me saying these things, it's the raging, hormonal, VAGINA ARMY BAND I CARRY WITH ME INTO GENTIAL WARFARE SITUATIONS!
"I am who I am and I'm not defined by my gender or any small or coincidental aspect of my life.... and I like it that way! :)"
I don't want to get into it too much, but I generally display some feminine traits (love of fine arts, singing, and so on), and I used to get made fun of for being Italian, as well as Christian (a lot of people where I grew up had atheist or agnostic parents, and Christians were "weird").
I went through a lot of hard times until I finally realized that I should be proud of who I am. I was a much happier person from that moment on.
I still fight for people who don't have the option to do so (as explained above), but I'm really glad that I'm able to deny others the right to define me. It's great advice and I'm glad you're a happy person Elsa, as you make me happier knowing you :D
I don't want to get into it too much, but I generally display some feminine traits (love of fine arts, singing, and so on), and I used to get made fun of for being Italian, as well as Christian (a lot of people where I grew up had atheist or agnostic parents, and Christians were "weird").
I went through a lot of hard times until I finally realized that I should be proud of who I am. I was a much happier person from that moment on.
I still fight for people who don't have the option to do so (as explained above), but I'm really glad that I'm able to deny others the right to define me. It's great advice and I'm glad you're a happy person Elsa, as you make me happier knowing you :D
@andy & Chris
Yep. I don't know if there's any study to demonstrate it but you hear it in comments and from talking to people. That 'black Link dilemma' was one particular example of a conversation I had on the twitters with someone a while ago. They expressly stated they couldn't relate to black characters, by the way.
@molamolacolacake
http://blog.pricecharting.com/2012/09/emilyami-sexism-in-video-games-study.html
"15.7% of men also reported that they had experienced sex-based taunting, harassment, or threats while playing video games. While this is in the minority, it is still of concern as sexism. The comments directed at these gamers, however, are different from those directed at women in some very telling ways. Most of the men who provided additional information on their “yes” response to this question experienced comments that revolved around them not fitting a masculine gender role. These men were often called “fags” and compared to or told that they were women and labeled with stereotypically feminine words.
"[...] For women, the sexism experienced is about being female. For men, it is about not fitting a standard of masculinity. In short, this sexism is always about “male” being the normative sex and “not male” or “not sufficiently male” being reason for insults, shaming, and bullying. This means that men who fit (or present) a masculine, normative standard are those who are most unlikely to be the victim of sexism."
@Elsa
The recipient was a girl, and the reason was given as the sender couldn't take that he was beaten by a girl. I got it from http://fatuglyorslutty.com/page/2/ (Like you say, it's worth noting how "bitch is gendered language, too, still abiding by the above quoted connotations when targeted at a man.)
The thing about the argument that most videogame characters are poorly written is that it generally ignores the differences between how and why those characters are crappy. To be short, male characters usually abide by male gender roles or particular tropes and women abide to female gender roles or particular tropes, and when you get into it you find attitudes that put down classically or contemporary feminine traits so as to favour or value the male. Super simplified version is "men punch things, take care of women; women nurture, motivate men towards action."
Spoilers for The Walking Dead episode 3
Since you mentioned The Walking Dead did you notice how Kenny remarked upon how the women needed to be taken care of by the men in ep3? If he and Lee were busy or elsewhere, the group was vulnerable because the women can't take care of themselves. I'm sure somebody will misconstrue this to mean I hate TWD and think it's pure sexism incarnate, but I mention this only as an example of how basic gender-distinct tropes/stereotypes value the genders unequally.
When feminists or non-feminists criticize sexism in gaming or non-gaming culture, the goal isn't to denigrate men. At least, the vast majority of the time. The goal is to eradicate sexism. Personally I haven't seen any devolution in the feminist press to "men are pigs." As for whether the gaming world is misogynistic, given how prevalent misogynistic attitudes are it's hard to argue against that. Is a guy who hates black people not racist because he also hates poor people?
Yep. I don't know if there's any study to demonstrate it but you hear it in comments and from talking to people. That 'black Link dilemma' was one particular example of a conversation I had on the twitters with someone a while ago. They expressly stated they couldn't relate to black characters, by the way.
@molamolacolacake
http://blog.pricecharting.com/2012/09/emilyami-sexism-in-video-games-study.html
"15.7% of men also reported that they had experienced sex-based taunting, harassment, or threats while playing video games. While this is in the minority, it is still of concern as sexism. The comments directed at these gamers, however, are different from those directed at women in some very telling ways. Most of the men who provided additional information on their “yes” response to this question experienced comments that revolved around them not fitting a masculine gender role. These men were often called “fags” and compared to or told that they were women and labeled with stereotypically feminine words.
"[...] For women, the sexism experienced is about being female. For men, it is about not fitting a standard of masculinity. In short, this sexism is always about “male” being the normative sex and “not male” or “not sufficiently male” being reason for insults, shaming, and bullying. This means that men who fit (or present) a masculine, normative standard are those who are most unlikely to be the victim of sexism."
@Elsa
The recipient was a girl, and the reason was given as the sender couldn't take that he was beaten by a girl. I got it from http://fatuglyorslutty.com/page/2/ (Like you say, it's worth noting how "bitch is gendered language, too, still abiding by the above quoted connotations when targeted at a man.)
The thing about the argument that most videogame characters are poorly written is that it generally ignores the differences between how and why those characters are crappy. To be short, male characters usually abide by male gender roles or particular tropes and women abide to female gender roles or particular tropes, and when you get into it you find attitudes that put down classically or contemporary feminine traits so as to favour or value the male. Super simplified version is "men punch things, take care of women; women nurture, motivate men towards action."
Spoilers for The Walking Dead episode 3
Since you mentioned The Walking Dead did you notice how Kenny remarked upon how the women needed to be taken care of by the men in ep3? If he and Lee were busy or elsewhere, the group was vulnerable because the women can't take care of themselves. I'm sure somebody will misconstrue this to mean I hate TWD and think it's pure sexism incarnate, but I mention this only as an example of how basic gender-distinct tropes/stereotypes value the genders unequally.
When feminists or non-feminists criticize sexism in gaming or non-gaming culture, the goal isn't to denigrate men. At least, the vast majority of the time. The goal is to eradicate sexism. Personally I haven't seen any devolution in the feminist press to "men are pigs." As for whether the gaming world is misogynistic, given how prevalent misogynistic attitudes are it's hard to argue against that. Is a guy who hates black people not racist because he also hates poor people?
@Chris... I'm often the first person to speak up when I hear homophobic, racist or other derogatory comments in online gaming (often kids are harassed, as are people that don't speak English). Sometimes culture is changed one person at a time and I'm surprised at how often people will actually apologize in online play for something they've said.
Often what's said is out of frustration, or just being anonymous... though yes, sometimes it's also just plain ignorance.
Often what's said is out of frustration, or just being anonymous... though yes, sometimes it's also just plain ignorance.
@Stephen
i would like to point out that this stereotype:
"men punch things, take care of women; women nurture, motivate men towards action."
is bad for both women and men. it doesn't only suggest women are weak, it also suggests that men know only violence and unless i'm wrong that isn't a desired trait anymore these days
i would like to point out that this stereotype:
"men punch things, take care of women; women nurture, motivate men towards action."
is bad for both women and men. it doesn't only suggest women are weak, it also suggests that men know only violence and unless i'm wrong that isn't a desired trait anymore these days
@Stephen... again, I'm not denying that women are harassed, likely even more than men, though again, perception also plays a role. When I first started playing online I thought that every time someone said "bitch" they were talking about me, as I was often the only female in the game. I had no idea that men use this as a loving term when referring to each other and often had absolutely no idea that a female was even present.
... and I haven't played Episode 3 yet!! ... but again, derailing the positive aspects of the game to concentrate on any negatives from a feminist perspective. One can always find negatives is one is looking. It's fine that people are looking... but the negatives always seem to get more press than the positives.
... and I haven't played Episode 3 yet!! ... but again, derailing the positive aspects of the game to concentrate on any negatives from a feminist perspective. One can always find negatives is one is looking. It's fine that people are looking... but the negatives always seem to get more press than the positives.
@Elsa
I find that most people online, when they use gay/ethnic slurs, aren't actually homophobic/racist. People use terms like "f*g" or "bitch" in tandem with "stupid" and "idiot" so often, I'm not going to start a war against them or judge them for doing it outside of saying it's wrong.
What I do try and fight are bigger issues. Like Christian PACs attempting to ban gay marriage, or opress women/minorities. Those issues aren't subjective in nature and are extremely clear in their intent. I have bigger battles to fight for humanity than to complain about what a vocal minority of gamers does on the internet.
I find that most people online, when they use gay/ethnic slurs, aren't actually homophobic/racist. People use terms like "f*g" or "bitch" in tandem with "stupid" and "idiot" so often, I'm not going to start a war against them or judge them for doing it outside of saying it's wrong.
What I do try and fight are bigger issues. Like Christian PACs attempting to ban gay marriage, or opress women/minorities. Those issues aren't subjective in nature and are extremely clear in their intent. I have bigger battles to fight for humanity than to complain about what a vocal minority of gamers does on the internet.
@Glowbear
Oh, I can't either. That's why I tell them it's wrong.
But you have to realize that some of these people, while wrong, aren't fire-tongued shadow demons that wish death upon all members of a specific group. Some people really think it's a synonym for "stupid."
I'll attempt to educate them, but I'm not going to judge them forever for it. I'd rather focus my energy on politicians who are actually attemping to defile human rights with identifiable anti-humanitarian policies.
Oh, I can't either. That's why I tell them it's wrong.
But you have to realize that some of these people, while wrong, aren't fire-tongued shadow demons that wish death upon all members of a specific group. Some people really think it's a synonym for "stupid."
I'll attempt to educate them, but I'm not going to judge them forever for it. I'd rather focus my energy on politicians who are actually attemping to defile human rights with identifiable anti-humanitarian policies.
@Chris...
yeah, the bigger issue are a whole different thing. I don't think I understood American politics much before seeing many of the social issues that cross over into gaming. I'm Canadian and being female or gay isn't really a big deal. We have gay marriage and legally even gay common law marriage is recognized for taxes, benefits and other legal issues. For women, there are no restrictions... even in the military, men and women are treated completely as equals. There is still some sexism, racism and other ism's... but the laws are there and they are well used.
... but speaking of online play, I have to admit that on thinking it over I tend to use the word "dickhead" as a derogatory insult - a lot. Pretty sexist when I think about it - though I do use the word equally to men and women. I got into a teamkilling verbal fight with another woman in MAG last week... we didn't even realize that we were both female until we were yelling at each other. Still... she's a dickhead for teamkilling me because I apparently stole her favorite sniping spot! LOL!
yeah, the bigger issue are a whole different thing. I don't think I understood American politics much before seeing many of the social issues that cross over into gaming. I'm Canadian and being female or gay isn't really a big deal. We have gay marriage and legally even gay common law marriage is recognized for taxes, benefits and other legal issues. For women, there are no restrictions... even in the military, men and women are treated completely as equals. There is still some sexism, racism and other ism's... but the laws are there and they are well used.
... but speaking of online play, I have to admit that on thinking it over I tend to use the word "dickhead" as a derogatory insult - a lot. Pretty sexist when I think about it - though I do use the word equally to men and women. I got into a teamkilling verbal fight with another woman in MAG last week... we didn't even realize that we were both female until we were yelling at each other. Still... she's a dickhead for teamkilling me because I apparently stole her favorite sniping spot! LOL!
"we didn't even realize that we were both female until we were yelling at each other. Still... she's a dickhead for teamkilling me because I apparently stole her favorite sniping spot! LOL!"
Haha, amazing.
Haha, amazing.
@Chris Carter - I agree that people just say things and it's not always a reflection on who they are as a person. But some things can be black or white OR in the grey area and I think in terms of respect and just plain decency we are losing a grasp on letting shit slide and things like "free speech" are thrown about but executed in the wrong way. People are either too worried about being PC or too worried about proving a point and saying what they want "because they can".
It's not hard to NOT be an asshole, but these days you'd think it was easier to win the lotto and rent out christina hendricks cleavage for naps.
It's not hard to NOT be an asshole, but these days you'd think it was easier to win the lotto and rent out christina hendricks cleavage for naps.
@Elsa
"... and I haven't played Episode 3 yet!! ... but again, derailing the positive aspects of the game to concentrate on any negatives from a feminist perspective. One can always find negatives is one is looking. It's fine that people are looking... but the negatives always seem to get more press than the positives."
It's not an attempt at derailing. I'm not even speaking about TWD in an analytical context - I'm talking about basic ideas about genders and how TWD demonstrates an example of how they can be harmful. It's not a comment on TWD, it's a comment on gender tropes and roles.
As for the negatives getting more press than the positives... really? I don't think I've read any gaming article about the negatives of Telltale's TWD.
To get back to your point about Lee from TWD being black, no I don't think I've seen any backlash against the fact that the game has a black protagonist but that in no way means there aren't people who can't relate to black protagonists and it also doesn't mean that some devs actively refrain from casting 'minority' protagonists for fear that players won't be able to relate. And that's just going by those who vocalize their attitudes.
"... and I haven't played Episode 3 yet!! ... but again, derailing the positive aspects of the game to concentrate on any negatives from a feminist perspective. One can always find negatives is one is looking. It's fine that people are looking... but the negatives always seem to get more press than the positives."
It's not an attempt at derailing. I'm not even speaking about TWD in an analytical context - I'm talking about basic ideas about genders and how TWD demonstrates an example of how they can be harmful. It's not a comment on TWD, it's a comment on gender tropes and roles.
As for the negatives getting more press than the positives... really? I don't think I've read any gaming article about the negatives of Telltale's TWD.
To get back to your point about Lee from TWD being black, no I don't think I've seen any backlash against the fact that the game has a black protagonist but that in no way means there aren't people who can't relate to black protagonists and it also doesn't mean that some devs actively refrain from casting 'minority' protagonists for fear that players won't be able to relate. And that's just going by those who vocalize their attitudes.
"slide and things like "free speech" are thrown about but executed in the wrong way"
Agreed. People don't understand free speech at all in this country. It is not the freedom from reprisal or consequences.
Agreed. People don't understand free speech at all in this country. It is not the freedom from reprisal or consequences.
... but Stephen, is it an actual comment on gender tropes and issues, or is it simply creating one character in the game who happens to be sexist? All game characters can't be politically correct or there would be no characterization in the character. Again, there has to be variety - a better reflection of current society and in order for us to better like or dislike specific characters. One character was also racist... but this was done to create the character, not so that the game itself was racist.
... not sure if I'm saying this right... but a character being sexist does not make a game sexist.
... not sure if I'm saying this right... but a character being sexist does not make a game sexist.
I'm using it as an example of how basic gender roles can be problematic. Again, I'm not saying this means TWD is satan reborn. I'm not saying Kenny being sexist makes TWD sexist. I'm not analysing TWD, I'm analysing gender roles.
Am I the only one who wants a GlowBear and Elsa radio show now? You two made me choke on my damn sandwich.
I hate to say it, but there is a little secret about modern men. Even the most liberal caring and even pro-feminist man has a little tiny part of his brain that thinks in a ways that would be shocking to most women.
I could lay my idea out complexly, but I will try to keep it simple. No matter whom you are Cis, Trans, Homo or Hetero as a human you size up the people around you as friends, foes, mates or unimportant non-threats. We all do this except for people with various metal cognition differences we term today as Autism...but that is a whole other discussion. It suffices to say we all size each other up. In addition, we have other primitive behaviors that are not learned but are instinctual. In addition, we have learned cultural behavior that because we are very clever apes is very good at curbing our instincts and countermanding our brain software.
I think you typical man (and some others on the gender spectrum) do have certain bit of their brain that assess and instinctual behaviors that re-enforces certain aspects of misogynistic behavior. Moreover, we have cultural behaviors that are learned (despite the fact we are slowly UN-learning them) that remain to add additional misogynistic behaviors. Most people can hide such feelings well, but when stressed or pushed will exhibit them.
Now, I am not saying "Its nature, its natural...so who cares." But, what I am saying is there are reasons it there, it part of our software, and removing them merely through cultural changes will only be somewhat effective. A typical man is “probably” a little misogynist in the sense of taking women less seriously then another man subconsciously, but is often polite enough to hide it even when it surfaces. Remember, I am saying so much of it is instinctual and subconscious…but we cannot deny that it seems to surface enough in broad spectrum of men to say it exist more then we would like to admit in many more men.
I could lay my idea out complexly, but I will try to keep it simple. No matter whom you are Cis, Trans, Homo or Hetero as a human you size up the people around you as friends, foes, mates or unimportant non-threats. We all do this except for people with various metal cognition differences we term today as Autism...but that is a whole other discussion. It suffices to say we all size each other up. In addition, we have other primitive behaviors that are not learned but are instinctual. In addition, we have learned cultural behavior that because we are very clever apes is very good at curbing our instincts and countermanding our brain software.
I think you typical man (and some others on the gender spectrum) do have certain bit of their brain that assess and instinctual behaviors that re-enforces certain aspects of misogynistic behavior. Moreover, we have cultural behaviors that are learned (despite the fact we are slowly UN-learning them) that remain to add additional misogynistic behaviors. Most people can hide such feelings well, but when stressed or pushed will exhibit them.
Now, I am not saying "Its nature, its natural...so who cares." But, what I am saying is there are reasons it there, it part of our software, and removing them merely through cultural changes will only be somewhat effective. A typical man is “probably” a little misogynist in the sense of taking women less seriously then another man subconsciously, but is often polite enough to hide it even when it surfaces. Remember, I am saying so much of it is instinctual and subconscious…but we cannot deny that it seems to surface enough in broad spectrum of men to say it exist more then we would like to admit in many more men.
I think you're right but at the same time I don't see people who identify as feminists (like Anita Sarkeesian) coming in and saying their piece as necessarily a bad thing, I think it just shows gaming is growing as a social element and people are starting to take it seriously. If we don't like what they say we can just ignore them.
