Woops, meant to do something first. I approve this article btw. Good yob Dex. Keep those brain juices flowing. We need more choices in games like these. Give us these morally difficult choices! Let us at least feel some emotions while we sit and enjoy our games! Let ME decide to save the hostages or let them die for my own gain! Let ME decide to save the princess or join the dark lord! Let ME decide for myself!
A moral blog without a mention of The Witcher? You should definitely play it, as it's a shining beacon of hope amidst the awful Fable II/Bioshock/inFamous "GOOD/BAD" choice system.
Dragon Age is basically the [new, popular] spiritual successor of The Witcher's good moral choice system.
Dragon Age is basically the [new, popular] spiritual successor of The Witcher's good moral choice system.
fap'd
Dragon Age is most certainly the new hotness for moral choices. Or at the very least, choices that find a way to make you feel like a dick, whether you're right or wrong.
I think getting rid of "Good/Bad" meters is a huge step in the right direction.
Dragon Age is most certainly the new hotness for moral choices. Or at the very least, choices that find a way to make you feel like a dick, whether you're right or wrong.
I think getting rid of "Good/Bad" meters is a huge step in the right direction.
I feel that moral choices are probably one of the best ways to move the medium forward, with that element of choice presented to the player.
The only gripes I had with Fable wasn't necessarily the actual moral choices, but the way the results of them were executed. Would have been much better if you could see the outcome of your choice at the end visually before you made it than have to scout around for what changed.
The only gripes I had with Fable wasn't necessarily the actual moral choices, but the way the results of them were executed. Would have been much better if you could see the outcome of your choice at the end visually before you made it than have to scout around for what changed.
Yeah, moral choices won't be good until they don't slap the player in the face. Nothing's worse than playing a game, coming to a certain point, and saying "Oh, hey, look, a moral choice. I wonder what I'll do!"
But like you say, there are games that do it well, but they're lost among a sea of worse games that claim to have morality at their centers.
But like you say, there are games that do it well, but they're lost among a sea of worse games that claim to have morality at their centers.
I couldn't read much of this, as Bioshock is the only game you bring up that I've finished, but great write-up nonetheless. At any rate, I brought up Bioshock's morality yesterday on my c-blog for the monthly musing. You'd probably enjoy it.
Nice read, I've only played Bioshock out of these three but I do understand the situations in the other games. I think that moral choices are handled well in games; sure not every game does it decently, but hey, there's going to be mistakes and mishaps. I thought Bioshocks little sister fiasco was interesting, also, you don't even have to pick harvest or rescue, you could just ignore them. Well except the first one, you have to choose something there.
The game that got me into gaming, KOTOR, put a lot of it's selling point on the fact that it had moral choices. I mention this because I have some pretty strong opinion about it and they pretty much reflect what you've said.
However I have to say I'm upset that you didn't use Mass Effect as an example here. Mass Effect did a great job in presenting true morality by not asking you to pick right or wrong but instead asking you to pick dialouge. Sometimes what sounded right didn't come out right or sometimes doing the right thing didn't win an argument. In fact as you progress later in the story and you become involved with stronger characters you sometimes have to present yourself as a strong character, otherwise you run the risk of losing the characters attention.
I think the first DLC also pushed that point (SPOILERS):
In the DLC a group of terrorist have taken over a building and threaten to blow it up. Long story short you save the hostages and confront the big boss. Here you have the option to kill the dickhead or let him walk. However choosing the kill him option isn't as simple as pulling a trigger. It's brutal. One shot doesn't kill the sucker and with each passing shot you have the option to back out. Meanwhile you have one side of your party telling you if you imprison him he'll still find a way to continue his shitfest but you have the other side saying you don't need to kill him and how his capture will benefit in hunting down the rest of his buddies. It's a pretty intense moment because by giving you that option after every shot to back out you really think about if what you're doing is necessary.
Anyways yeah I pretty much agreed with your points. I never played those games but I do feel like the system is oversimplified. However I believe Bioware did a brilliant thing by putting less emphasis on the choice and moreso on the dialouge. Many times I thought I was saying something positive and ended up pissing someone off. I kind of had to have a certain level of empathy which, in the context of a videogame, is weird.
However I have to say I'm upset that you didn't use Mass Effect as an example here. Mass Effect did a great job in presenting true morality by not asking you to pick right or wrong but instead asking you to pick dialouge. Sometimes what sounded right didn't come out right or sometimes doing the right thing didn't win an argument. In fact as you progress later in the story and you become involved with stronger characters you sometimes have to present yourself as a strong character, otherwise you run the risk of losing the characters attention.
I think the first DLC also pushed that point (SPOILERS):
In the DLC a group of terrorist have taken over a building and threaten to blow it up. Long story short you save the hostages and confront the big boss. Here you have the option to kill the dickhead or let him walk. However choosing the kill him option isn't as simple as pulling a trigger. It's brutal. One shot doesn't kill the sucker and with each passing shot you have the option to back out. Meanwhile you have one side of your party telling you if you imprison him he'll still find a way to continue his shitfest but you have the other side saying you don't need to kill him and how his capture will benefit in hunting down the rest of his buddies. It's a pretty intense moment because by giving you that option after every shot to back out you really think about if what you're doing is necessary.
Anyways yeah I pretty much agreed with your points. I never played those games but I do feel like the system is oversimplified. However I believe Bioware did a brilliant thing by putting less emphasis on the choice and moreso on the dialouge. Many times I thought I was saying something positive and ended up pissing someone off. I kind of had to have a certain level of empathy which, in the context of a videogame, is weird.
I would also like to point out how ME has each choice continuing into the next game. While we haven't seen that in action it'll be interesting to see how that terrorist organization that I mentioned before will fare in the next title after the choice I made. Especially if that's something you know going into the game it's somehthing that affects your decision. How will this mold the universe going forward?
@Xzyliac: That definitely sounds cool. I hope you're not too offended that I didn't use Mass Effect as an example, especially since the reason I didn't is that I've never played it.
I'm just tired of most games including some sort of display that shows how good/bad you are. All I want is to see some REAL repercussions for these choices, I don't need the game telling me I'm a saint or a sinner...I already know.
Excellent blog!!
... and I agree that morality is improving substantially in games... with more "gray" and more interesting consequences for either choice.
... and I agree that morality is improving substantially in games... with more "gray" and more interesting consequences for either choice.
@dexter
I just finished my first playthrough of ME last night. While it does border on repetitious, its a well crafted game that is $20 new. not a bad price.
I just finished my first playthrough of ME last night. While it does border on repetitious, its a well crafted game that is $20 new. not a bad price.
@Xzyliac
Well, Dragon Age has that within one game: one of my gripes with Mass Effect is that it essentially gives you a cartoony "tune in next game!" response, essentially making you fork out $180 for the whole trilogy.
Well, Dragon Age has that within one game: one of my gripes with Mass Effect is that it essentially gives you a cartoony "tune in next game!" response, essentially making you fork out $180 for the whole trilogy.
Great article. Moral choices, I feel, in general need an overhaul. To me, the biggest problem is the need to offer a gameplay incentive to go one way or the other. In my experience, offering a gameplay or even real-world (achievement/trophy) incentive only cheapens the moral choice because it lets you detach yourself from the choice and think instead about the incentive. Should I be evil to get the evil powers because they're better and will make the game more fun or be good because that's what I believe in? Stuff like that is one of the big factors that holds moral choices back.
I noticed you didn't cover inFAMOUS. I'm really not trying to plug this link, it's just very related to your article and I don't feel like merely taking bits of the points I made there and putting them here when it's quicker and more efficient to just link to it: The Choices We Make: inFAMOUS. Since we've both got an interest in how moral choices in games play out, hopefully you'll find it as interesting as I found your article.
I noticed you didn't cover inFAMOUS. I'm really not trying to plug this link, it's just very related to your article and I don't feel like merely taking bits of the points I made there and putting them here when it's quicker and more efficient to just link to it: The Choices We Make: inFAMOUS. Since we've both got an interest in how moral choices in games play out, hopefully you'll find it as interesting as I found your article.
Nice write up, I've been thinking about this topic myself. I've been replaying Mass Effect this past week, this is just after I finished Dragon Age so I've been thinking about choices for at least a month. I wanted to point out two things, one that adds to your thoughts, and one going against.
First of all, I've never played Double Agent, but after reading your article I immediately ordered it on Amazon. I've been told that despite all the talk about its choices it isn't exactly a "great" game but the choices alone intrigue me. But the choice you described seems to be exactly what I want in games. I'm tired of every game having the obvious repercussions within the choices themselves. They spell everything out for you like you're some dweeb who can't figure it out.
In some cases (such as that villain shooting the girl) that's something you don't immediately anticipate, and that stuff should be hinted at in some way. However I think for the most part these "good" and "evil" choices are totally arbitrary and absurd. I don't like good and evil choices as much as I would want to see "different" choices. Ones that have vastly different impacts, but neither is better or worse than the other. I don't want to out-write myself cause like I said I want to write something my own :P
My second point is in regards to you Fable II observation. You say that the game allows "real-world rewards" for being evil, but not for being good. You also said in BioShock that its subtle way of saying you "should" pick to save the Little Sisters works because it teaches us a life lesson.
First of all, I hate saying this, but for Fable II "it's just a game." Sacrificing ten digital avatars that you have no connection with and don't even make an attempt to replicate real people, does not cost you your soul no matter how deep you look into the issue. Part of feeling regret for a choice is if you care about the ramifications. Like in the DA example, an innocent person with personality and history was killed because of you.
And for BioShock. Games are not toddler tools to teach people how life works. If anything they should be somewhat introspective in their design, revealing things about yourself. If a game has an "obvious choice" than the mystery and intrigue of the "choice" is lost, and therefore irrelevant. Making the "choice" to save the sisters pointless. The game shouldn't even have had the option to kill them, it should've just be "go and save them" with no other option. The options are supposed to be that, multiple viable ways of completing things. Not "this is the option you pick if you want to be a jerk" and "this is the right way."
Anyway, mammoth comment of mine is done. I enjoyed the article. Look forward to your next work.
First of all, I've never played Double Agent, but after reading your article I immediately ordered it on Amazon. I've been told that despite all the talk about its choices it isn't exactly a "great" game but the choices alone intrigue me. But the choice you described seems to be exactly what I want in games. I'm tired of every game having the obvious repercussions within the choices themselves. They spell everything out for you like you're some dweeb who can't figure it out.
In some cases (such as that villain shooting the girl) that's something you don't immediately anticipate, and that stuff should be hinted at in some way. However I think for the most part these "good" and "evil" choices are totally arbitrary and absurd. I don't like good and evil choices as much as I would want to see "different" choices. Ones that have vastly different impacts, but neither is better or worse than the other. I don't want to out-write myself cause like I said I want to write something my own :P
My second point is in regards to you Fable II observation. You say that the game allows "real-world rewards" for being evil, but not for being good. You also said in BioShock that its subtle way of saying you "should" pick to save the Little Sisters works because it teaches us a life lesson.
First of all, I hate saying this, but for Fable II "it's just a game." Sacrificing ten digital avatars that you have no connection with and don't even make an attempt to replicate real people, does not cost you your soul no matter how deep you look into the issue. Part of feeling regret for a choice is if you care about the ramifications. Like in the DA example, an innocent person with personality and history was killed because of you.
And for BioShock. Games are not toddler tools to teach people how life works. If anything they should be somewhat introspective in their design, revealing things about yourself. If a game has an "obvious choice" than the mystery and intrigue of the "choice" is lost, and therefore irrelevant. Making the "choice" to save the sisters pointless. The game shouldn't even have had the option to kill them, it should've just be "go and save them" with no other option. The options are supposed to be that, multiple viable ways of completing things. Not "this is the option you pick if you want to be a jerk" and "this is the right way."
Anyway, mammoth comment of mine is done. I enjoyed the article. Look forward to your next work.
I went through Fable as a crazed nutter....not once did i care about anyone in the game enough to choose the good option. Nearly
The choice with the girl and aging made me think for abit (before choosing to mess my own face as i was ugly to begin with) I also rejected the people at the tower every chance i could...at the loss of xp....but that was more my character being a badass than a saint.
The choice with the girl and aging made me think for abit (before choosing to mess my own face as i was ugly to begin with) I also rejected the people at the tower every chance i could...at the loss of xp....but that was more my character being a badass than a saint.

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