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About Me
Hello, I'm Trevor Johnson, also known as Canti-sama. I like to write about things including videogames (that should be paramountly obvious at this point...) music, film, and anime, so what you see in this blog is just one part of my pretentiousness! I'm a nit-picky bitch when it comes to basically everything, so excuse me if I seem like kind of an elitist, even though I try not to be. If I had to sum up who I am, I would do it through top 5 lists, so how about we a do a few right now! But before that, since DTOID tends to remove frontpage posts from my c-blog, here's the list of my frontpages, which I thank everyone very much for!

Frontpage Posts:
1. Monthly Musing - I suck At Videogames: Nostalgia's Curse, 8/12/09
2. Promoted Story - Suda 51 and the "Art" of Videogames, 9/6/09
3. Monthly Musing - Nothing is Sacred: Videogames, 10/7/09

-----FAVORITES-----

Top 5 Favorite Videogames:
5. Fallout 3, PC
4. Mega Man X, SNES
3. Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 4, PS2
2. Braid, PC
1. Shadow of the Colossus, PS2

Top 5 Favorite Albums:
5. Death From Above 1979 - You're A Woman, I'm a Machine, 2004
4. Radiohead - O.K. Computer, 1997
3. Aphex Twin - Selected Ambient Works 85-92, 1992
2. Animal Collective - Strawberry Jam, 2007
1. Sonic Youth - Daydream Nation, 1988

Top 5 Films:
5. Brazil, Directed by Terry Gilliam
4. Fargo, Directed by Joel Coen
3. Fight Club, Directed by David Fincher
2. Shaun of the Dead, Directed by Edgar Wright
1. The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, Directed by Sergio Leone

Top 5 Anime Productions:
5. Spirited Away, Directed by Hayao Miyazaki
4. The Big O, Directed by Kazuyoshi Katayama
3. Cowboy Bebop, Directed by Shinichirō Watanabe
2. Neon Genesis Evangelion, Directed by Hideko Anno
1. Fooly Cooly, Directed by Kazuya Tsurumaki

----OTHER STUFF----
Avery Island: Musical Opinions From Music Geeks
PSN Name: MetalLink1979
Wii Friend Code - 8089-7286-5497-4717
XBL - Metal Link 904 (Note: My Xbox 360 is in possession of my brother, so this is no longer technically my XBL Tag)
Gamer Profile
3DS friend code:
Steam: MetalLink1979
Battle:
PSN:
Mii: 8089-7286-5497-4717
Gamertag: Metal Link 904
Following (2)
Anthony Burch
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Discussion Friday: Suda 51 and the "Art" of Videogames
Canti-sama | 11:03 AM on 09.04.2009 39 comments


Discussion Friday is a segment in which I look at either a recent news story or an always relevant issue and discuss my personal opinion on it. I try to stay objective, but overall, this is about me and my experience as a videogame player who spends most of his time either playing or discussing videogames.

In terms of gameplay, Suda 51 has never made a great game in his entire life. If it were any other developer doing what he was doing, we wouldn't care about them and wouldn't give a second thought to calling their games total garbage. When first released, Killer 7 was the first moderately successful venture into the American videogame market for Grasshopper Manufacturer, so not many people had experience with this man who went to every Press Conference with a Luchador Mask on. They looked at Killer 7 and either despised it or liked, but didn't really get it. Reviewers criticized the gameplay, called it tedious and needlessly complicated, and called the story ridiculous and meaningless, simply being weird for the sake of being weird. They appreciated the visuals, and called the cel-shading a true piece of art. This is a quibble I have with lots of mainstream reviewers, but more on that later. No More Heroes has become Suda 51's most popular game in America to date, but it seems that people still don't get "it". Like Killer 7 and The Silver Case before it, it had fundamental gameplay flaws that many reviewers wagged their fingers at. However what people did appreciate was the "quirky" story which made no sense in any conventional means, with characters with muddled backgrounds and a lack of motivation, but who cared? It was funny! That's what it was supposed to be, right? Yes and no. But why does he keep making the same gameplay "mistakes"? It's because they aren't mistakes, and he is well aware of this. Let's talk about Suda 51, one of the few people in the gaming industry that can truly be described as an artist.

What makes Suda 51's games any different than anything else available on the market; in essence, what makes them special? The popular choice is his eccentric sense of humor and style and his unconventional approach to gameplay. The correct answer, however, is that he doesn't make games so much as he makes interactive art that is commentary on videogames, politics, and social issues. Sure, his games are funny, with No More Heroes in particular being quite uproarious, sure his games are odd, with Flower, Sun, and Rain being particularly weird what with the Pink Alligators, and sure, his games play very differently, even arguably worse than other games, but these assumptions of "being weird for the sake of being weird" are leaving out the largest variable in the equation: Suda 51 knows what he is doing. Killer 7 isn't just some game about the Presidential Election being rigged and No More Heroes isn't just about some guy that wants to be the best for no particular reason, these are games that are created by a man who knows what it means for a videogame to be a videogame. In the developing medium of videogames, we are still in the stages where only a few people are willing to take the risk and put out games like Flower, Sun, and Rain. Suda 51 is one of the few game designers that are willing to alienate the mainstream audience in order to make a statement, which has it's pro's and con's, with others like the people at Team ICO and Jonathan Blow in particular coming to mind. What I am trying to get across is that when a reviewer complains that Flower, Sun, and Rain is repetitive, they're missing the point (The Destructoid review was brilliant in separating a review from a critique, and I suggest reading it!). Here's why: Flower, Sun, and Rain is one of the first mainstream games to be able to be classified as post-modern art.

Post-modern art involves taking something and stripping it down to it's bare and simplest message by way of ironic imitation; it seems like the artist is shamelessly copying something when in reality he is making a statement about it. Flower, Sun, and Rain, as a game that is meant to be fun, is terrible. It's god awful. The gameplay is repetive, frustrating, and completely lackluster to the point of being boring. But that's the point. Without spoiling too much of the actual story, Flower, Sun, and Rain is about videogames in their most basic nature. Videogames to Suda 51 revolve around completing a variety of tasks as an end to the means. It's all about repetition of simple actions, whether that be running across a stretch of land to exchange meaningless messages between two people or solving puzzles you already know the answer to. The main character of the game, Sumio, is meant to stop a plane from exploding, which will kill innocent people, but throughout the game, over and over, he fails to do so; it's Groundhog Day basically. But within the frustratingly dull gameplay and half-decent puzzles is a message that Suda 51 wants you to see: these are what videogames are. It's all about completing tasks to win a game. For example, in No More Heroes, Travis Touchdown is a despicable human being; he's rude, he's a slob, he treats women as nothing more than sexual objects (if he could get one that is), and kills hundreds of people without a single bit of remorse. Why? To be the number one assassin in Santa Destroy. It sounds terrible, but think about this; in say, Grand Theft Auto IV, though it is not a main objective, the most performed activity by anyone playing the game is tearing loose and killing as many people as possible until they themselves are either killed by cops, killed by themselves (car accidents, falling from a building, etc.), or arrested. Why? It's fun. Travis Touchdown is the same as a person playing Grand Theft Auto IV; they enjoy wreaking havoc and killing tons of people in funny and satisfying ways. Is there anything wrong with the person playing Grand Theft Auto IV? Of course not, we all do it. Is there anything wrong with Travis Touchdown? Yes, he's a murdering psychopath. Or is he?

Travis Touchdown to the world in the game is a terrible person who does terrible things and his only saving grace that makes him endearing in that sense is the fact that he is funny; he insults people, he strikes out with every woman he meets, and he switches personalities seemingly on cue between boss fights. One minute he's basking in the blood of Dr. Peace and the next he's burying the blown up body of Holly Summers. But if we separate ourselves from the dimensional barrier known as the fourth wall and examine who Travis actually represents, we see what Suda 51 is actually saying: We are Travis, and Travis is us.Travis treats the lives of the people of Santa Destroy as nothing more than a game, just as we do. He kills without remorse because we kill without remorse. We have been trained to kill without question because that is what the game wants us to do, just as Travis kills without question. Is there something wrong with this? No, after all, videogames are a virtual medium where the inherent joy comes from taking on the role of a character and doing what the game wants you to do. It's not always about fun, but for the most part, games are meant to be at least enjoyed on some level, the most obvious level being that they are fun and we have fun playing them. So in this light, Travis is actually just a regular guy who is merely doing what we would do; become the ultimate badass because that's what's entertaining to us. Take a game like Fallout 3 for instance; many people who play that game may not always choose to be evil, but by and large, we do bad things. We steal, we lie, and we kill to get to the end of the game; whatever makes the journey easier and more entertaining. We view them as separate from our actual lives where such actions are morally reprehensible and punishable by law, where as Travis views the same actions as part of his life, which he self-aware of being a game (Various scenes that break the fourth wall support this). That is why his motives are sketchy and nonsensical at best, and why he seeks to be number one and thinks nothing of killing hundreds of people for it; it is all just a game. That is why the Ranking System is nothing more than a High Score board reminiscent of Galaga or Pacman.

Delving a bit deeper into some of the idiosyncrasies that are generally regarded as simply comedy in games like No More Heroes or Killer 7 reveal some interesting things. For example, in No More Heroes Heroes, every time Travis needs to charge up his beam saber, which requires kinetic energy, he shakes it in a masturbatory motion. He's jacking off his sword. It's funny, but let's think about what this means as applied to Travis as a character. In literary terms, swords are almost always wielded by men, usually to be phallic in nature, commenting on the power-hungry nature of a character, or if wielded by a woman, it's commenting on the desire of that woman to be a man, or penis envy as Freud would call it; after all, just look at Joan of Arc or Mulan, who actually battles under the guise of being male. What does this mean about Travis? Well taken in that light, it's the shedding of the metaphorical guise of the phallic symbolism and is basically showing you that he is so bloodthirsty and power hungry that he is basically masturbating with his sword. Similar to Flower, Sun, and Rain's shedding of gameplay conventions to reveal the meaning beneath it, No More Heroes sheds the symbolism to basically show you a facet of Travis's character; he's power hungry, blood thirsty, and incredibly horny. He's a social reject and is turned down by every woman in the entire game basically, so he masturbates using his sword and plunges the giant phallus into enemies to get some of the satisfaction that he doesn't find sexually. Or how about in Killer 7, the names of the carrier pigeons, one of whom is dubbed "Pussy". Now, any fan of James Bond will immediately recognize every name as one of the names given to the women of the James Bond novels and films. However, this means that the appearance of the Golden Gun at the end of the game, which only Garcian can wield, cannot be just a coincidence. Let's think about James Bond as a character: he's smooth, an able agent, and most of all, a misogynist. He treats women as objects, as shown in Casino Royale. Garcian is basically James Bond; they even have similar lines of work. But here's the main difference.

While Agent 007 uses women for sexual pleasures and then discards them or kills them after learning they are working for the bad guys, Garcian treats women as well, if not better, than anyone else. There are three women we see Garcian interact with during Killer 7: Samantha, Love, and Linda Vermilion. That is, we see Garcian actually speak to them as opposed to another or unknown personality talking to them, like the woman in Ulmeyda's chapter, who is talking to the camera directly, meaning that we aren't sure who she is actually talking to. Samantha is an abusive care taker, yet he doesn't fire her and in fact tips her at one point. He never talks back to her or even says much at all. When confronted with Love, he talks to her and even shakes her hand and smiles, a sign that he views her as an equal and with admiration. Even Linda, who kills someone very close to Garcian does nothing to her and instead just talks to her as if she did nothing at all. This all points to the fact that he is respectful to women in general, where as Bond uses his politeness and manners to simply get into bed with them. However, we later learn that Garcian is not what he seems; he is another person completely. He is a person who is completely different from the civilized Garcian we know, and we even see this person murder a woman (Which woman is up to those who have played the game) in cold blood. There are even hints that this woman betrayed him in the past, so his reaction seems appropriate given the characters blood thirsty nature. With the Golden Gun in hand, we see that Suda 51 is telling us that Garcian is not who he seems to be, just as Bond isn't who he seems to be to the women he destroys, both literally and sexually (After all, they surely feel betrayed by his actions).

These are all things that go to make Suda 51the type of game designer he is; he crafts games that aren't meant to be as fun as they are meant to be understood. Yahtzee, of Zero Punctuation, stated in his review of No More Heroes that "...any game designer who sacrifices fun to make an artistic statement is obviously stuck so far up his own ass that he's in danger of chocking on his own head." It seems that Mr. Croshaw, while funny and entertaining, has his own opinions on what games have to be: fun. I don't need to go into why this is a flawed idea, considering Rev already has done so, but let it be known that my opinion lies closely to Anthony's. Games don't have to be fun to be interesting and playable, just look at Flower, Sun, and Rain, which is unbearably terrible at points. Yet does this make it's message any less valid? Saying games should be fun first and foremost is like saying every movie that comes out has to have a happy ending; after all, what's the point of paying to see a film if you aren't uplifted by it? This is obviously ridiculous, because films can be anything ranging from happy-go-lucky to absolutely, soul crushingly depressing, and anyone with half a brain can tell you just because a movie is sad doesn't make it bad. This is why Suda 51 doesn't need to pull punches when it comes to game design; sure, he could make games that are fun and entertaining, and has, but this isn't the only way he has to express his ideas. Now, if we look at a game like Shadow of the Colossus, which is fun, enjoyable, and also has the greatest story ever told in videogames that comments on the trusting of NPC's in videogames ([shamelessselfpromotion]Read my Top Ten Greatest Videogame Stories if you want to hear more[/shamelessselfpromotion], but this is ignoring the one basic thing that Suda 51 is over anything else. More so then being a Game Designer or a Post-modern artist, he is a satirist. Satire is meant to be ironic much like post-modern art, which is why No More Heroes is both funny and brilliant. More than anyone else in the industry, Suda 51 is an artist, a true satirist who denies the critic's right to call games like Okami art simply because it looks pretty. Sex, violence, and attitude are the paints which Suda 51 uses on his canvas, and when finished, they come together to make a brilliant piece of satire, even if he chooses to wear a Wrestling mask while doing it.



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36 comments | showing # 1 to 36
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Jonathan Holmes's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/04/2009 21:33
Jonathan Holmes
Post-modern! Perfect! That's the term I was looking for.

I've had a feature on the back burner for a while about why No More Heroes, MadWorld, and HotD:Overkill all sold less than half a million copies, despite being generally well liked by the gaming press. Why the disconnect between critical reception and sales?

Of course, the answer is simple; the public just didn't "get" those three games. All three pay tribute to gamers and gaming, but they also mock gamers as well. I think that a lot of gamers either don't get in-game jokes that are pointed directly at them, or they are too sensitive to laugh at themselves.

You're spot on with your assessment that Travis touchdown is Suda51's attempt to hold a mirror up to the American gamer. Problem is, a lot of gamers play games to run away from the mirror. They want to escape who they are, not revel in it.

Not me though- I love Travis, warts and all, just as I love the great American gamer.

Anyway, this comment is long enough. Great blog!
Canti-sama's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/04/2009 22:26
Canti-sama
Wow! A DTOID Journalist commented on MY blog!?!?!?! *bows down* I also own Madworld and House of the Dead and love both, even if Madworld is a bit stale. You gotta love Steven Blume! "I don't help people. I kill them."
Matthew Razak's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/05/2009 09:42
Matthew Razak
Awesome job man. If I may be so humble as to point you towards my FSR review and my way earlier piece on No More Heroes. Haven't picked apart Killer 7 yet, but I gotta play through ti again first.

I totally agree with what you're saying here as well . It's also interesting to note the overarching connection between all of his games, especially when it comes to protagonists. One of the main connections I find most interesting is that all his characters comment on the player themselves while they are playing as them. So any player who is playing the game is also looking inwardly at why he is playing the game and why he is striving to do what he does.
Canti-sama's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/05/2009 11:01
Canti-sama
This...this is the most beautiful day of my life...two DTOID editors...OH LAWDY! Anyways, enough groveling. I totally loved your FSR review and almost thought about leaving out some FSR discussion from this to avoid sounding like a plagerizer lol I really recommend playing Killer 7, which is probably the one Suda 51 game I got so addicted to that I beat it in one sitting.
Monodi's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/05/2009 16:04
Monodi
Breaking the editor combo to say this was an awesome read.
Naim Master's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/06/2009 17:34
Naim Master
Breaking the well-known people combo to say this was an awesome read.
Funksy's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/06/2009 17:45
Funksy
I probably fall into Jonathon's "don't get in-game jokes that are pointed directly at them" category. I played through all all of No More Heroes and while I caught a few hints that Travis was meant to represent "me" more than just as an avatar, I never saw as deeply as you have.

Awesome read though.
The Prodigal Son's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/06/2009 17:48
The Prodigal Son
Well done. Well done.
Jon Bloodspray's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/06/2009 17:48
Jon Bloodspray
Breaking the avatar having users combo to say this was awesome. Thanks!
lwelyk's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/06/2009 18:04
lwelyk
Breaking the easily pronounceable names combo to say this was a pretty good write-up. Good job.
kalidanthepalidan's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/06/2009 18:08
kalidanthepalidan
That was excellent. It's nice to hear someone say "games are art" (which I agree with) and then actually classify specific games as a specific type of art. It adds some weight to the statement. Well done sir (or madam).
Jonathan Holmes's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/06/2009 18:10
Jonathan Holmes
Breaking up the comments about breaking up the comments to say that my photoshop is totally awesome.
Los255's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/06/2009 18:21
Los255
Amazing read. I loved the self-awareness of NMH when I played it 2 weeks ago.

"....so he masturbates using his sword and plunges the giant phallus into enemies to get some of the satisfaction that he doesn't find sexually."

I actually never saw it that way. WOW. 10/10
michaelb99's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/06/2009 19:21
michaelb99
excellent article i never realized how deep the sword recharge thing in NMH is.
Phoenix Gamma's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/06/2009 22:16
Phoenix Gamma
The way I see it, No More Heroes feels more like a game that's too lazy to be fun and too lazy to be meaningful, so Suda's fans just say it's "deep" and have a circlejerk.

I see tons of artists at school make lazy, half-ass projects, then presented them, bullshitting their way through as they tried to discuss the meaning of gluing two sporks together. They say "look at me! I'm clever!" and make asses out of themselves. That's exactly how I see Suda51, and I think that his games barely deserve the poor sales they're getting.
Hcapt's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/06/2009 22:28
Hcapt
"Art" is never, EVER an acceptable excuse for making a game that is flawed, or isn't fun. I did love No More Heroes as a parody, and the best parody I have ever seen in a video game, but that doesn't excuse gameplay errors for any reason. In fact, I think Suda is aware that there were several flaws in No More Heroes - making the odd jobs 8-bit in the sequel is probably an attempt to rectify some of his old errors and make the sidequests fun without losing the reference to video games that make you do completely unrelated and pointless sidequests.
Hiltz's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/06/2009 22:31
Hiltz
As a big Suda 51 fan I find it great to see more people starting to understand how Suda 51 works and what makes him an awesome game designer. I enjoyed No More Heroes and look forward to its sequel and Killer7 is one of my favorite games of all time.

As for the article, I give it two thumbs up.
Hcapt's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/06/2009 22:44
Hcapt
The reason games have to be fun and not flawed snd dull is that games have to be played. They require a vested interest of the audience to do what the designer intended the audience to do. As an active medium, as opposed to a medium which only requires you to watch, video games can only be appreciated when they instill a desire in their players to finish the game. Players don't want to actively work toward a sad ending, they don't want to play games that are incredibly serious and soul crushing. People only voluntarily choose to do what they want to do, which gives gaming a very narrow range of what it can be compared to a movie, which requires only that you press play and sit for an hour.

Of any game in the past 10 years, Wii Fit speaks the most about the human condition. It's a game that is desired to take something difficult, unenjoyable, but healthy; exercise; and make it fun. Now I doubt anyone buys it because it's the best game out their gameplay wise, nor is it the best exercise equipment. However, it is undeniable that the combination of "fun" and "healthy" makes it popular, and satisfies the need people have for both things.
Jonathan Holmes's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/06/2009 23:11
Jonathan Holmes
@ Phoenix- I'd agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that I thought No More Heroes was really fun from beginning to end, with very few flaws to be found.

I'm also not sure that Suda means to make all the "errors" that people point out as being "intentionally artistic". That's his fans talking, not him. He is the first to come up and say "Yeah, the people said they didn't like this, this and this, so I'm going to try and fix that with the next game". It's his fans that say that he made games with "bad" gameplay on purpose just to make a point.

That said, I do think it's interesting to look at what stuff he gets "right" and what stuff he gets "wrong". Like the city in No More Heroes. There was nothing going on there, and a lot of people hate that. Personally, I liked it that way, just like I liked the barren wilderness of Shadow of the Colossus and the barely eventful world of Animal Crossing. I like having a big space to explore with little human interaction to be had. Maybe Suda does too.

That's the sort of thing that makes me a loyal fan of his work, at least thus far. There are so many things about God Hand, No More Heroes, and now Flower Sun and Rain that make think "This guy really makes sense to me". That's the reason I dig his games, not because they are "intentionally bad" or whatever.
Novakaine's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/06/2009 23:19
Novakaine
Absolutely gorgeous article. I remember over a year ago when the game came out, and reading NeoGAF's thread full of deep hypotheses as to what Suda really meant in the game. I saw a ton of amazing theories--my favorite being the "coming-of-age" theory, which does note the phallic symbolism you did (although the theory took it to a whole other level).

It's amazing timing, because I literally started a Mild new game+ an hour ago, after not touching the game in over a year. Wanna refresh my memory for the sequel next year. The original No More Heroes is a remarkable occurrence for me because I was highly anticipating it, and nine times out of ten games disappointment me when I'm excited for them. Not only did No More Heroes not disappoint me, but it exceeded my expectations beyond my wildest dreams.

I'm super pissed that I've lost my GC memory card, though... I wanted to start up Killer 7, and now I can't. =\
MarlinClock's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/06/2009 23:43
MarlinClock
Although since this is the same way I view that kind of postmodern art, I just have never felt it as justified. Maybe it just goes to my nature. You talk about how postmodern art is a parody of normal art, and I've always felt parody as a low form in any medium. Parody is a pessimistic view on things, finding faults where it really isn't necessary.

Why can't games be called art in the way Okami is? Games take what allows us to appreciate the beauty of the art in a whole new way that really is unique to it. No other medium gives you art and lets you control how you experience it. All other visual arts can only be seen in a linear sense, you can look at a painting, but it won't change even if the way you experience it differs, movies will always start the same, progress the same, end the same. While this can be said of games, the difference is that someone can go through Windwaker, only go where it is necessary to go, finish the game. Meanwhile, another person can go to where it is necessary in the beginning, see a map full of empty spaces, and sail through the whole thing just to see what is there. I believe it should be the interaction, the defining trait of the medium, going in tandem with the traits that are inherited from its ancestors, that should make a good game. Any game is going to have its technical limitations in regards to interaction, but explicit tampering of interaction in order to make a "statement" is, in my opinion, plain wrong.
D-503's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/06/2009 23:45
D-503
Great article!

There's also this interesting juxtaposition in No More Heroes where you are given the simple non-violent jobs, which can either be just as fun or just as boring as the game's combat depending on who you are. Every time you do the missions a guy calls you "3rd-Rater" as though the non-violent jobs are not as respectable as the violent ones. Yet here we are seeing Wii controls being used for lots of different things. "Here are all the other things you could be doing instead of killing people." But people think less of you for not performing the violent missions. There's also a monetary incentive to take on more violent missions, which is the promise of continuing a plot to be the arbitrary number 1.

You could probably write a thesis on No More Heroes, there's so much in it.

The game bleeds depth. And if I have to sacrifice a little "fun" for depth than I gladly would do it.
Infinitys End's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/07/2009 00:30
Infinitys End
Couldn't have said it better myself. (And have been saying it for years, now.)
I will by anything Suda 51 makes. Anything. For the rest of my life.

I'm surprised you didn't mention Contact in your article, another post-modern game. Excellent write-up, dude, I wish more articles like this were written on a daily basis...
Infinitys End's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/07/2009 00:33
Infinitys End
Oh and one more thing: unfortunately people in this industry sometimes confuse "entertainment" with the word "fun" Just because something is entertaining, doesn't necessarily make it fun. Games are entertainment, and they will always be entertainment.
snoogans775's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/07/2009 01:37
snoogans775
@hcapt, it is futile when you make generalizations about humanity, but there is a very critical point in saying that players need to want to finish a game.

It may be that we rush through games when there's nothing gained from our desire to "beat" a game. Games like Killer7 and Shadow of the Colossus give me a sense of clarity which allows my feelings and thoughts to come forth naturally and effortlessly, they give me the time and freedom to explore how I am experiencing the game. Like Canti-sama said, it holds a mirror up to me. All of my favorite art does that.
JGonspy's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/07/2009 09:00
JGonspy
First off, that's a truly fantastic article. I had meant to write up something analyzing No More Heroes for some time now, but by and large, you've saved me the effort and managed to include things about Suda's other games I would have missed.

To add a little to the discourse though, I do think there is one thing you may have gotten a bit off. For one thing, Travis isn't just motivated to become number one for the sake of a high score board, but also because of his intense sexual desire for Sylvia. I remember one cutscene distinctly where he asks if he'll be able to sleep with her if he reaches the top ranking. Aside from his obvious sexual frustration, to me this also seems like a commentary of sorts on the notion of rescuing the princess. It's one of the old video game clichés, and while often presented as a noble effort, it can easily be seen as something a little more sinister. Judging from one of the trailer of No More Heroes 2 where one of the bosses actually uses women as literal objects, hurling them at Travis as weapons, it looks like Suda is going to continue his examination of misogyny in games.

And just as a quick message to everyone here badmouthing satire (and in some cases making the dreaded intentional fallacy), there's a huge difference between a criticism and a parody. One is a valid method and thoughtful method of displaying the flaws of a given subject, and the other is a method for extracting cheap jokes based on silly distortions. No More Heroes, and Suda's games in general, fall into the former category. If you can't see why or just aren't interested, that's fine, but I really can't stand it when people try to argue without any real use of evidence within the games themselves.
Jonathan Holmes's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/07/2009 09:19
Jonathan Holmes
So what is Spinal Tap. Is that satire or parody?
Infinitys End's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/07/2009 11:11
Infinitys End
Spinal Tap is satire. Did you even have to ask?
Laird's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/07/2009 14:55
Laird
"The way I see it, No More Heroes feels more like a game that's too lazy to be fun and too lazy to be meaningful, so Suda's fans just say it's "deep" and have a circlejerk."

Yeah, with beam swords. You see folks, this guy gets it.
Canti-sama's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/07/2009 15:14
Canti-sama
I love Destructoid ;_;
Raggy Mop's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/07/2009 15:32
Raggy Mop
Great article! Although I skipped most of the stuff about Killer7 because I haven't played it enough yet.

It also annoys me rather when people throw around words like 'lazy' when describing games like this. I'm pretty sure that Suda51(/GHM) isn't lazy when it comes to designing games (there is such a clear love of the medium in these games). I think maybe we should accept budget constraints in video games more than we do...
Wexx's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/07/2009 18:20
Wexx
Awesome read! Makes me want to go back and play all of those games now :)
Canti-sama's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/07/2009 20:58
Canti-sama
Parody and satire are two completely different things. I said nothing about Post-modern art being about a parody of "normal" art, whatever that even means. Art is art, no matter what form it takes, and no "form" is any more deserving than another. That being said, the popular opinion of Okami as art is the argument that it is a game that looks like a painting and looks pretty and blah, blah, blah, but all this really means is that you believe that art is only skin deep; if Okami is art with it's inkbrushing, then I say Valkyria Chronicles is art with it's water color. What it comes down to is that Okami is art because it a style that fits the subject matter, which is the telling of a legend-esque story. No More Heroes and Killer 7 are art because they don't need to be pretty to be meaningful; they can be funny, brutally violent, and completely crass, yet all of these things go to make the message of each game work. It's not about fantasy or reality, but a place in between where there are no rules. That is where Suda 51 works and that is where his brilliant satire comes from. His games aren't perfect, even if they sometimes are intentionally vapid like the Santa Destory; sometimes he just doesn't do something well. Does this make his message any less legitimate? NO. Does it make the game less playable? Not really. What it comes down to is people either not getting Suda 51 or wanting to hate him because they think he's pretentious. I'm gonna quit before this turns into any greater of a lecture.

tl;dr: Suda 51 doesn't make Okami's because not everything that looks pretty is art. It just looks pretty.
Bear Guts's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/29/2009 10:23
Bear Guts
This was some nice stuff.

I agree with you entirely, Suda51's games are artworks, and for the same reasons - the complexity of character beyond just the narrative and their self-referential nature and so on. What I've yet to see anyone pick up on yet is that he produces this quality of work because he is an artist himself - he is not simply a game designer, he is someone from a few steps outside of the industry that says "this is what I would to see" to the guys that will make it for him. That's why his games are flawed in terms of gameplay and fantastic otherwise. It was the same with Shigeru Miyamoto - Super Mario Bros was the result of an artist, unaware of any sort of programming constraints, heading a team of designers and focusing on what he'd like to see in a videogame. And I think it's that that is the desciding factor with both of these guys - they are concentrated on the art and impact of their IP's, and much more that than what the other guys are doing.
stacyfariot12's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/13/2010 10:34
stacyfariot12
It annoys me rather when people throw around words like 'lazy' when describing games like this. I'm pretty sure that Suda51(/GHM) isn't lazy when it comes to designing games (there is such a clear love of the medium in these games). I think maybe we should accept budget constraints in video games more than we do... traffic ultimatum and the instant money code review
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