TESTIFY!
What a great article. I wish I had better feedback to give you, but you make so many great points. I especially feel that the points about Native Awareness and variety are important in this age of fighters.
What a great article. I wish I had better feedback to give you, but you make so many great points. I especially feel that the points about Native Awareness and variety are important in this age of fighters.
A couple of points here.
There's nothing wrong with the way most fighting games handle character difficulty. Dominators and weaklings add character to a fighting game, and bring humor to an otherwise dry experience (For example, ribbing your friend for priding himself on his Ky Kiske or Talim game). Part of the fun is finding out which characters carry with them some noobish inclinations.
It kind of seems like the thinking of some fighting game developers is to throw as much as possible at a wall and see what sticks, or not even pay attention to what sticks. Until developers start looking at what people like and including it in later iterations of their games, fighting games will continue to be a genre where people continue to play an ages old title because that was when they "got it right".
I can't agree with you more about the lazy and tacked on characters in Soul Calibur. The shear nerve of trying to work Darth Vader and Yoda into their already convoluted mythology is beyond stupid. It's reaching, and it makes them look desperate.
Lastly, I think developers should pay more attention to their online multiplayer. They should patch balance issues, or at least add humorously degrading achievements for continually playing an unbalanced character (for example, using both wolverines in MVC2). Things like that make the experience less fun.
There's nothing wrong with the way most fighting games handle character difficulty. Dominators and weaklings add character to a fighting game, and bring humor to an otherwise dry experience (For example, ribbing your friend for priding himself on his Ky Kiske or Talim game). Part of the fun is finding out which characters carry with them some noobish inclinations.
It kind of seems like the thinking of some fighting game developers is to throw as much as possible at a wall and see what sticks, or not even pay attention to what sticks. Until developers start looking at what people like and including it in later iterations of their games, fighting games will continue to be a genre where people continue to play an ages old title because that was when they "got it right".
I can't agree with you more about the lazy and tacked on characters in Soul Calibur. The shear nerve of trying to work Darth Vader and Yoda into their already convoluted mythology is beyond stupid. It's reaching, and it makes them look desperate.
Lastly, I think developers should pay more attention to their online multiplayer. They should patch balance issues, or at least add humorously degrading achievements for continually playing an unbalanced character (for example, using both wolverines in MVC2). Things like that make the experience less fun.
I like the revisions in fighting games. sometimes older versions have something that future revisions lack. If I want to play competitively, I play 3S. If I want to fuck around I play Giant Attack. If I want to play a shitty mess of a fighter, I play MvC2. If I want to enjoy myself, I play any of the other vs games.
The only fighters I can think of that got it right on the very first try were Garou and Power Stone.
The only fighters I can think of that got it right on the very first try were Garou and Power Stone.
@Analoge
Haha, Capcom loves double-characters. Hulk and Iron Hulk: Iron Man and War Machine: like you mentioned, Wolverine and Bone Claw Wolverine. MVSCapcom 2 was an awesome game, but that roster was so padded. I'd even go so far as to say the Shotokans are padding in some titles.
@Bullet
As usual, I loved the article. You're able to use firm and concise wording without sounding flowery, and it makes for great, easy to read writing. :-D
Like Pendleton said, it's really hard for me to critique this piece because it pretty much says what we're all thinking, so I'll just echo a part of it. I really enjoy extra modes, and I feel like Street Fighter Alpha 3:Home Edition did a great job at acomplishing this. It had an RPG-type experience gain mode, tag team mode (2v2!), dramatic battle, survival mode, and extra stories/endings for every character.
Off-topic: I'm getting back into the Touhou games now, and I'm loving it. I had a brief hiatus from shmups, but your forgotten essentials rekindled my passion. If you enjoy Clover's works, would you be knowledgeable enough of the genre to compose a "beat 'em up" essentials piece? Also, you seem to really like NIS: I'm of the opinion that SRPGs are entirely different than normal Role Playing Titles, and could warrant their own article. Just something to ponder about; I believe you have more knowledge of other genres than you think!
Haha, Capcom loves double-characters. Hulk and Iron Hulk: Iron Man and War Machine: like you mentioned, Wolverine and Bone Claw Wolverine. MVSCapcom 2 was an awesome game, but that roster was so padded. I'd even go so far as to say the Shotokans are padding in some titles.
@Bullet
As usual, I loved the article. You're able to use firm and concise wording without sounding flowery, and it makes for great, easy to read writing. :-D
Like Pendleton said, it's really hard for me to critique this piece because it pretty much says what we're all thinking, so I'll just echo a part of it. I really enjoy extra modes, and I feel like Street Fighter Alpha 3:Home Edition did a great job at acomplishing this. It had an RPG-type experience gain mode, tag team mode (2v2!), dramatic battle, survival mode, and extra stories/endings for every character.
Off-topic: I'm getting back into the Touhou games now, and I'm loving it. I had a brief hiatus from shmups, but your forgotten essentials rekindled my passion. If you enjoy Clover's works, would you be knowledgeable enough of the genre to compose a "beat 'em up" essentials piece? Also, you seem to really like NIS: I'm of the opinion that SRPGs are entirely different than normal Role Playing Titles, and could warrant their own article. Just something to ponder about; I believe you have more knowledge of other genres than you think!
Oh, by the way, I consider Guilty Gear: Accent Core, as close to fighting game heaven as mere mortals have achieved thus far.
I'd have said X2, but they didn't get Slayer right until Accent Core.
I'd have said X2, but they didn't get Slayer right until Accent Core.
@Analoge
My pick would be Street Fighter Alpha 3: my absolute favorite fighter of all time, hands down. Accent Core for me comes close. Yes, I love Slayer as well.
Of course, the very nature of the "Alpha" series and the "3" moniker goes against the very fibre of Bullet's "Do It – The FIRST Time" idea, but hey, whatcha gonna do.
My pick would be Street Fighter Alpha 3: my absolute favorite fighter of all time, hands down. Accent Core for me comes close. Yes, I love Slayer as well.
Of course, the very nature of the "Alpha" series and the "3" moniker goes against the very fibre of Bullet's "Do It – The FIRST Time" idea, but hey, whatcha gonna do.
Okay, lemme see how much I can cover in one post -
@Pendelton - Thanks much, sir. Hee hee, I think the image I used for that section overruled your reading abilities and made you type "Native Awareness" instead of the actual subtitle. ;)
@Analoge - On your first point, I half-agree with you - the occasional "joke" character I'll acknowledge, as it provides pros a way to show off and adds some comic relief (for the record, Dan Hibiki is my favorite fighting game character ever). That said, a "weak" character obviously done on purpose is one thing, but a weakling that's supposed to be "a contender" is another. As far as dominators are concerned, though, I still say that there's no place for them in any respectable fighter - even if you outlaw them from tourneys, they still make matches, whether playing as or against them, phenominally boring. That's a type of "character" that I'd rather not have added to fighters I play.
As far as developers are concerned, it's definitely tougher than it'd seem at a glance, since different people will respond to different things, even as you and other readers have responded (so far) to this article. I acknowledge that it's sometimes even harder to pin down "the basics" of a fighting game than the stuff I mentioned here - if it was easy, everyone would do it (heaven knows they all tried, back in the day). As for patches and such, as I said in the shmup article, I'm hesitant to endorse too much of it, since it gives developers an excuse to rush a game out the door unfinished and make us wait for a complete product via an update (or worse, via DLC). Finally, what? No Accent Core PLUS? ;)
@Rider - Obviously improvements and additions in later "revisions" of a fighter are great, but what I was complaining about was the genre's tendency to not really give it their all from the get-go - you ever read one of those reviews of a sequel that's "what the first one should have been?" That's the sort of thing I'm yammering on about. When it comes to making a game with a completely different focus (i.e. a "serious" one versus one where you "just mess around") I say that's the sort of case when you ought to create a completely new series - sequels and revisions are for refinements on a formula that's already been very highly polished. At least that's how I view it. Anyways, while Power Stone is hard to argue with, Garou is technically a Fatal Fury game, but I won't dare take that one any further. ;)
@Mag - You really don't need to go very far to say that the Shotos are frequently padded. ;) Heh, SFA3 really did go bonkers when it came to all those modes, didn't it...was it the PSP port that eventually crammed the most in there altogether, or was it the DC version? Also, in its case I wouldn't call it a violator of the "first time" rule (at least, not a major one) - none of the games was "too" broken or in need of anything resembling a major overhaul, so the sequels just took what had been done and gave us more of it. That I don't mind TOO much, especially since Capcom at least had the good sense to stop milking it relatively quickly - that rule is a bit hard to pin down as it is, though, definitely not an exact science.
OT, glad to hear you're back on the Shanghai Alice shooters (Imperishable Night and Perfect Cherry Blossom are my personal favorites, though I've yet to try some of the more recent ones) - as for other articles, I do have a bit of experience with brawlers and strategy games, but not enough to write an article like this. Hopefully someday, though - if I can tear myself away from what I'm currently playing, heh heh.
Hopefully that covers at least most of the main points from the first few commenters - thanks so much to you all for reading and speaking your minds. :)
@Pendelton - Thanks much, sir. Hee hee, I think the image I used for that section overruled your reading abilities and made you type "Native Awareness" instead of the actual subtitle. ;)
@Analoge - On your first point, I half-agree with you - the occasional "joke" character I'll acknowledge, as it provides pros a way to show off and adds some comic relief (for the record, Dan Hibiki is my favorite fighting game character ever). That said, a "weak" character obviously done on purpose is one thing, but a weakling that's supposed to be "a contender" is another. As far as dominators are concerned, though, I still say that there's no place for them in any respectable fighter - even if you outlaw them from tourneys, they still make matches, whether playing as or against them, phenominally boring. That's a type of "character" that I'd rather not have added to fighters I play.
As far as developers are concerned, it's definitely tougher than it'd seem at a glance, since different people will respond to different things, even as you and other readers have responded (so far) to this article. I acknowledge that it's sometimes even harder to pin down "the basics" of a fighting game than the stuff I mentioned here - if it was easy, everyone would do it (heaven knows they all tried, back in the day). As for patches and such, as I said in the shmup article, I'm hesitant to endorse too much of it, since it gives developers an excuse to rush a game out the door unfinished and make us wait for a complete product via an update (or worse, via DLC). Finally, what? No Accent Core PLUS? ;)
@Rider - Obviously improvements and additions in later "revisions" of a fighter are great, but what I was complaining about was the genre's tendency to not really give it their all from the get-go - you ever read one of those reviews of a sequel that's "what the first one should have been?" That's the sort of thing I'm yammering on about. When it comes to making a game with a completely different focus (i.e. a "serious" one versus one where you "just mess around") I say that's the sort of case when you ought to create a completely new series - sequels and revisions are for refinements on a formula that's already been very highly polished. At least that's how I view it. Anyways, while Power Stone is hard to argue with, Garou is technically a Fatal Fury game, but I won't dare take that one any further. ;)
@Mag - You really don't need to go very far to say that the Shotos are frequently padded. ;) Heh, SFA3 really did go bonkers when it came to all those modes, didn't it...was it the PSP port that eventually crammed the most in there altogether, or was it the DC version? Also, in its case I wouldn't call it a violator of the "first time" rule (at least, not a major one) - none of the games was "too" broken or in need of anything resembling a major overhaul, so the sequels just took what had been done and gave us more of it. That I don't mind TOO much, especially since Capcom at least had the good sense to stop milking it relatively quickly - that rule is a bit hard to pin down as it is, though, definitely not an exact science.
OT, glad to hear you're back on the Shanghai Alice shooters (Imperishable Night and Perfect Cherry Blossom are my personal favorites, though I've yet to try some of the more recent ones) - as for other articles, I do have a bit of experience with brawlers and strategy games, but not enough to write an article like this. Hopefully someday, though - if I can tear myself away from what I'm currently playing, heh heh.
Hopefully that covers at least most of the main points from the first few commenters - thanks so much to you all for reading and speaking your minds. :)
A nice (knowing your writing talent, seemingly unlikely) end to this series.
I do approve of the variety aspect, especially since they need to do more with it. Take the Soul Calibur series, this is mostly my personal experience with it. The game does have plenty of character variety with all the different people you can choose, but in the end, it's just a matter of "small-damage-dealing but fast characters vs heavy-damage-dealing but slow characters." Other than those two groups, it doesn't really play much differently beyond that.
I could easily say that about several other fighting titles, but it never really seemed more blatent that the Soul Calibur series. Also, I'm not really bashing the series except for the games following Soul Calibur II which manages to be one of the few fighting games I can still enjoy.
The modes thing is something I'm going for as well, although as long as there is another mode besides the story mode and versus, I'm content. Soul Calibur IV had that Tower of Lost Souls thing, which was annoying as all hell but it managed to add to what you can do with the game so I...guess it's alright, to say the least.
I easily could have gone on a rant about the Star Wars characters in SCIV but Analoge already brought that up. As well as some stuff regarding Street Fighter, mostly the shotokans but that was brought up already as well.
Man, I'm slow on these things. :[
I do approve of the variety aspect, especially since they need to do more with it. Take the Soul Calibur series, this is mostly my personal experience with it. The game does have plenty of character variety with all the different people you can choose, but in the end, it's just a matter of "small-damage-dealing but fast characters vs heavy-damage-dealing but slow characters." Other than those two groups, it doesn't really play much differently beyond that.
I could easily say that about several other fighting titles, but it never really seemed more blatent that the Soul Calibur series. Also, I'm not really bashing the series except for the games following Soul Calibur II which manages to be one of the few fighting games I can still enjoy.
The modes thing is something I'm going for as well, although as long as there is another mode besides the story mode and versus, I'm content. Soul Calibur IV had that Tower of Lost Souls thing, which was annoying as all hell but it managed to add to what you can do with the game so I...guess it's alright, to say the least.
I easily could have gone on a rant about the Star Wars characters in SCIV but Analoge already brought that up. As well as some stuff regarding Street Fighter, mostly the shotokans but that was brought up already as well.
Man, I'm slow on these things. :[
Also, I just noticed that I'm bringing up this reader counter up to five now. You're getting somewhere with this gig, bud.
Ha ha, a couple of hours after the thing is posted and it's already old news. ;) And yep, five whole commenters, I'm a-hittin' th' big time! Lookit me now, ma, I's a celeb-er-ty!
But seriously, as one of my few regular readers, thanks much for dropping in. Though I must say that I probably should have included a disclaimer in the "modes" section, which clarified that "annoying as hell" ones probably shouldn't count. ;)
But seriously, as one of my few regular readers, thanks much for dropping in. Though I must say that I probably should have included a disclaimer in the "modes" section, which clarified that "annoying as hell" ones probably shouldn't count. ;)
Woah. Friend'ed with the quickness. What an awesome post. Pretty much agree with everything you say, but with the caveat that some of the things that would do so much to push the genre forward (variety and balance) are easier said than done.
Your intro's mention of Final Fight got me all tingly. You should do one of these on Beat em' Ups. I'd love to get some Cadillacs and Dinosaurs up in this piece. Also, Jim's frequent referencing of the old CPS2 Alien Vs. Predator game as of late has made the genre particularly relevant.
@Funksy - Yeah, I acknowledged as much in one or two of my previous replies - making a great game of any sort is no mean feat, but for myself I'd much rather wait longer for a release with the assurance that it would be a better end product, as opposed to getting an "okay" title sooner. Of course, dollars (and the means to get them more quickly) is what drives the industry, same as any other, so such sentiments are frequently overruled, unfortunately. And then of course there's counter-arguments a la Duke Nukem Forever.
@Gilder - Heh, as I mentioned earlier, unfortunately I'm not schooled enough in beat-em-ups to do the genre justice via one of these articles. Once more, though, as I play and experience more, hopefully I'll get the opportunity to do more of these...if people care enough to read them.
@Gilder - Heh, as I mentioned earlier, unfortunately I'm not schooled enough in beat-em-ups to do the genre justice via one of these articles. Once more, though, as I play and experience more, hopefully I'll get the opportunity to do more of these...if people care enough to read them.
@BulletMagnet: Beat em' Ups a are a particular specialty of mine. Hit me up on AIM sometime, I can school you with some proper recommendations.

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