There was a pretty popular post by
atheistium about two weeks back and although this is a bit late, I still feel the need to respond to it.
Atheistium brings up a couple of points in her post, namely:
1) Attractive women are gaming simply because they get attention quite easily.
2) Being attractive is more important than being actually good at your job when it comes to the gaming industry.
And her general thesis:
T) Women who exploit sex in combination with gaming are holding back females as a whole when it comes to gaming.
It's easy to agree with her here, but I think Atheistium isn't seeing the forest that's behind those trees she is looking at.
There's two sides to this here; the casual side (as she puts it, "having photo shoots and websites dedicated to your photos, posing around with a Nintendo controllers on your nipples") and a professional side (which she illustrates using the example of Jessica Chobit licking a PSP).
Now sexyhalogrrl69. She's got a blog, and it's popular because each day thousands of guys check her new pictures, because last time they
almost caught a nipple. She's got eleven guys giving her hundreds of gold a week on Warcraft, and she signs every message she sends with a ;).
She is not holding you back.
There are always going to be girls like that, trapping stupid boys with computers into thinking they've found a gaming goddess, when in actuality all they've found is someone with an ego to feed. They've existed on the internet since the beginning, first on BBSs, now on MySpace.
Do guys like them? Of course! But again, they're not some unique phenomenon with video games. The fact that they maybe occasionally game is simply two things they have in common with you. The fact they have a trait that you find negative doesn't reflect on gaming as a whole. The vast majority of females who play games (and according to recent figures, they comprise 41% of the total gaming population) are not posting pictures of themselves for sexual consumption on the internet.
I shouldn't have the point out that sex sells. Sex sells really well. You can sell anything with sex; there's a reason companies pay models to dress up in skimpy outfits to promote their product at gaming conventions. There are plenty of attractive women in the industry who receive tons of hits from horny male games because they look good in a small t-shirt.
This is nothing unique to gaming.
Models and pretty girls sell
everything in some form or another. Be it body soap, tennis, cars, inflatable pools, etc. We have a news program in the world which features women who deliver the news while slowly stripping naked. The news!
I say this not to try and diminish the effect of sexuality when it's so deeply ingrained into our culture, but instead to point out that blaming Jessica Chobot for licking a PSP is like blaming bullets for killing people. You're not necessarily wrong (and from what I've read from the comments of atheistium's post, Chobot did call her on it, and rightfully so), you just miss the entire social and economic problems that are behind each bullet (or each .jpg file in this case) when you blame the messenger.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to put up with this. There
should be change. Attacking the sexyhalogrrls of the internet however is the wrong target. Women should (and thankfully, have) demanded better games from the publishers. The problem is that the industry is still not taking women 100% seriously. They don't know how to communicate effectively with women, and most importantly, they don't know how to make a game that men and women can play together without gender popping up (anything that has come out, even the MMO giants like WoW, are more then likely a happy accident).
So keep fighting girls! I want you to succeed. Just stop blaming the blonde with the nice rack, the Yoshi tattoo, and a webcam. Defeating her won't get you any of the respect you deserve.
- Eddie
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The problem is these attention whore "gaming grrls" give women a bad name, in the same way that hate-filled morons like Fred Phelps hurts the reputation of Christians.
It's a sad truth that sex sells, but those who use it to get ahead should still not be respected. Sure they may be gamers too, but when they use tits instead of talent to get a job in the industry they're just reinforcing the stereotype that looks are what's really important when it comes to women. It works certainly, and it's because guys like hot chicks. Does that make okay then to use a shortcut based on genetics (or plastic surgery in extreme cases)? And do you think Matt Casamassina or Dan Hsu got their jobs because they look good in a muscle shirt?
There are tons of games out there men and women can play together going back to the NES days, this has nothing to do with the publishers not making gender neutral games. Most of the women who frequent this site will play Halo as soon as they'd play Animal Crossing. But thanks to people like sexyhalogrrl, they have a much harder time being taken seriously.
Well im done and dusted on the subject but quickly.
I am mainly annoyed by the FAKE gamers. I just don't want them wasting my time in communities of gamers. If you don't game why join a gaming community, simple?
:-) nice post.
needs more boobies! :D
Tits or STFUAJPG ;D
Mxyzptik: I think it's unfair to compare a girl with a webcam to a person who speaks to millions. One is feeding her own ego, the other is probably feeding hate to millions.
Also, even IF Chobot is an example of a good looking woman who got to leapfrog into the industry, how many more can you name, and how many women total ARE in the industry? Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe every single woman who has entered the gaming industry got in because they were women first and qualified second (which could lead to a whole 'affirmative action' thing which is again, outside the scope of this subject) but until I can proven wrong, I have faith that some women who may not look like potential Maxim girls are entering the industry. To expect a revolution overnight is silly.
My comment about games is that the games that women DO play and DO enjoy are so because the developers accidentally created a game that women would enjoy. One need not look further then games that WERE designed for 'women' (i.e. every Barbie/Mary Kate and Ashley/etc. game created) are well, not hitting their mark. I agree that there are games the women like, but the Halo development team was not thinking "boy, I wonder how this game could appeal to women!" Take ANY organized sport, such as Hockey, Baseball, etc. and the controversy that arises when a woman decides she wants to play with the men. The NHL/NFL/NBA/Nwhatever wasn't designed to allow men and women to play together. The games are designed to be played by professional male athletes against professional male athletes. I have no doubt that there is probably some girl in the world, that with proper training, can match Sidney Crosby in the realm of Ice Hockey, but the system is not designed for that to happen (which is a HUGE shame in my opinion). Likewise, the creators of Halo have designed a game for men. It's no wonder that girls get weird stares when we find out they play, the game wasn't made for them.
You get a developer who manages to create a game that appeals to both men AND women, and I think that you wouldn't find the awkwardness you'd find in a game of Halo, or even a game like World of Warcraft.
Atheistium: This ia retread from a comment I had made; I just felt that it got lost in the shuffle. Also, it's REALLY hard to argue in the comments section of a blogpost.
Reeper and Alaphic: Come on, this is Destructiod. Every second post has mammories.
- Eddie
I never suggested that all women in the industry are there because of looks. Please reread what I wrote. There's many talented women in the industry (In fact, here's a list of 100 of them), my issue is that the attention primarily goes just to the ones that are hot. Chobot is an example I cite simply because she's a shit writer and she's the poster child for the problem. You want more examples? Look at all female clans like PMS or the Fragdolls. There's certainly a number of average looking women in those groups, but you don't see them posing in the publicity shots or getting interviewed by gaming sites. Stevie Case isn't remembered at all for her game designing skills, but rather because of her Playboy shoot and the fact that she was John Romero's girlfriend. Jade Raymond is a producer for Ubisoft, but whenever she's mentioned guys start with the "ZOMG HOTNESS!!!" And Aktrez does a lot for the gaming community, but frankly the main reason she gets most of her attention because she posts pics of herself reclining in lingerie. Sorry Becky, but it's the truth. All the above mentioned certainly know about games, but the fact is it's not their knowledge that gets them noticed. Take a plain woman who's done something equal or even greater than any of the people I listed as examples, do you honestly think we'd know their name?
Sorry, I just don't buy that Bungie sat down while designing Halo and said "Okay, how can we make this a game that appeals to guys?" They sat down and make a cool FPS that appealed to themselves. Women can't enjoy action scifi as much as men? Tell that to all my female friends who dig Aliens or Pitch Black. My girl played the hell out of House of the Dead and Eternal Darkness. Another female friend of mine was obsessed with God of War. These are both the type of girls who have cuteoverload.com set as their homepage. So why do they play violent, bloody games devoid of anthropomorphic animals? Because they have fun doing it. If you make a compelling game that's a blast to play men and women will both enjoy it. That's what developers should be focusing on, not worrying about how to make their titles appeal specifically to women. Fun appeals to everyone. It's not an "accident" when women like them too.
Since you brought up sports, are you saying that there aren't any female sports fans out there? If a chick likes football, she likes football. It doesn't have to have people of her sex on the field for her to enjoy it. And if she's a gamer into a particular sport, she'll probably be into a video game representation of that sport. I know a few girls who play Madden more than anything else.
Games like Barbie or Olsen twin titles aren't designed for women, they're designed for adolescent girls. Women don't need games marketed specifically towards them to be able to enjoy it. Series like Final Fantasy, Katamari Damacy, Mario, Zelda, DDR, and dozens more like them are all pretty much gender neutral.
In all seriousness, I can see the points both you and Atheistium are making; Though I do think I have to disagree with you on one point: They are holding you back. Female gamers that do the things you two are discussing do give the rest of you a bad name.
True, most gamers out there are smart enough to ignore the ones that are blatantly just gaming because they're attention whores. But there are those who won't see that, and could potentially write off your entire gender based on the experiences they've had with just a few of these encounters. This could just be my propensity for hyperbole talking, but, things like this could conceivably happen.
While it may be true that female gamers make up 41% (or something like that) of the gaming market, they're still considered the minority. Female gamers that engage in the type of behaviors that Atheistium talks about only make it harder for the actual girl gamers to become recognized as legitimate participants in the gaming world.
You are right, I don't know if I misread what you said, but I certainly miswrote what I was replying to at the very least.
Regardless, my original point is that even if these women are portraying a negative stereotype, this isn't a negative stereotype that is somehow unique to gaming. There is a larger picture here that is less the gaming industry's fault, and more our culture's fault. Rallying against women like Jessica Chobot fails to target the root of the problem, which exists outside of the industry.
I agree that when Bungie made Halo 1/2/3 they sat down and tried to make an entertaining game. And I know that there are girls who enjoy Halo, or God of War, or anything. My point is that they weren't a demograph that was consulted, or even catered to. They were catering to all the people who bought Halo 1, and who do you think the majority of those players were?
Of course there are games with a universal appeal to all genders. The trap you're falling into however, is you think that 'because SOME women like God of War, it appeals to both genders.' This is not true. If 90% of your user base is men, and only 10% of it women, then you're clearly reaching a minority of women users.
I guess I can pull a 'please re-read what I wrote" thing on you too. I never said that women can't enjoy sci-fi/football/whatever. My point is that the people who create/promote these genres aren't always giving women the proper consideration. Many men's sports in particular dwarf their female counterparts. We give men's hockey/baseball/football/soccer/whatever prime coverage, but we fail to promote the women athletes who are playing the same games. This isn't about who plays the games, it's about who advertises and promotes these things.
A good example of a sport which promotes BOTH genders is Curling. Women curlers get just as much promotion as the men do when they play. There ARE national women's football leagues, but when was the last time you've heard about them? Thus, we continue to think of games such as hockey and football as men's sports. Subsequently, until we get more companies getting behind women, the majority games are going to continue to be 'made' for guys, and like women football players, are not going to get the respect they deserve.
- Eddie
Of course the negative stereotype isn't unique to gaming, to suggest otherwise would be foolish. But we're discussing how it relates to gaming culture here, not the greater whole of society. We can look at any issue and follow the roots until we get back to primitive tribal gender roles thousands of years ago. But again, let's keep it on the topic at hand: video games. Just because there's a larger issue doesn't mean we can't limit the discussion to the one in front of us right now.
Bungie made Halo 2 to cater to Halo 1 fans, just like you said. But whether or not the majority of those fans were men or women is irrelevant. Should they have crowbarred a love interest in there to make it more female friendly? Of course not. The girls that enjoyed the first game liked the second as well. My point with God of War is that some games that ooze stereotypical male often find female fans. Why? Because they're excellent games. If you make good content, people will usually gravitate towards it no matter who they are. If there's an excellent movie that falls under the "chick flick" category, I'll probably still watch it and like it. It wasn't designed with men in mind, but that doesn't mean we can't appreciate quality.
Look at the WNBA. They hyped it up, promoted the hell out of it... and ultimately both men and women didn't care. They couldn't get an audience to save their life. It wasn't because the women were any less athletic than their male counterparts, but rather people wanted to watch the teams and personalities they already knew. There just isn't a market for it, nor is there one for national women's hockey/baseball/football/soccer/whatever right now. It's not because women athletes are inferior, it's because professional sports leagues need to make money. If they can't get an audience, they won't get sponsors, and they won't be able to promote themselves on a national level. That could very well change some day. Women in golf and tennis get a lot more respect than they used to.
That's the problem I see with developers marketing games just for women. They assume that this is the sure-fire way to make tons of cash off of the growing number of female gamers, when the most likely outcome is girls are going to continue buying and playing the exact same games they already do. And that comes down to the point a lot of the women on this site have already made. "Don't call me a girl gamer, I'm just a gamer. Yes I have tits, but I still play the same stuff as you." We don't need to treat them any differently, and neither do the publishers.
Anyway, it's been fun debating with you, I enjoyed it and respect the points you've made even if I don't quite agree. I've pretty much said my piece though. :)
Oh, one more thing: I mentioned women in tennis getting more respect, but I forgot to bring up that it's the most attractive ones that get all the attention, whether or not they're necessarily the best on the court. Same problem, different topic. :)