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Great write up, you did a fantastic job at summing up the combat issues. I really want to like this game, but I'm very much not liking what they're doing with the gameplay. I feel like Ninja Theory is spending too much time focusing on aesthetics and story, I've heard capcom is doing the combat themselves, but I'm still not convinced this is going to work out in the end.
I don't understand why there's been so much of a backlash towards the fan base for being skeptical towards this game. I think these worries are justified. Most DMC fans agree that hair color isn't the main issue. The main issue is that everything has been changed so much that it really isn't Devil May Cry anymore. I think Capcom should just turn this into a new IP. As a new IP I think this will do great, but this game is standing in the shadows of previous Devil May Cry games and those are very very difficult shoes to fill. I don't think this game will be bad, but it doesn't seem to be offering what I want in a Devil Mat Cry experience.
I guess the real question for me is am I going to be able to separate this game from the previous DMC games and appreciate it for what it is, or will the shadow of the other games in the franchise be so big that this game will be a letdown for me? I just hope I like the game in the end.
I don't understand why there's been so much of a backlash towards the fan base for being skeptical towards this game. I think these worries are justified. Most DMC fans agree that hair color isn't the main issue. The main issue is that everything has been changed so much that it really isn't Devil May Cry anymore. I think Capcom should just turn this into a new IP. As a new IP I think this will do great, but this game is standing in the shadows of previous Devil May Cry games and those are very very difficult shoes to fill. I don't think this game will be bad, but it doesn't seem to be offering what I want in a Devil Mat Cry experience.
I guess the real question for me is am I going to be able to separate this game from the previous DMC games and appreciate it for what it is, or will the shadow of the other games in the franchise be so big that this game will be a letdown for me? I just hope I like the game in the end.
I actually have never played any of the DMC games. But concern number 2 seems like something not to worry too much about. Taking the frames per second down to 30 from 60 doesn't give you less time or even less chances to make a perfect block, if I understand what you're saying correctly. Normally games will give you a specific amount of time designated by processor cycles rather than drawing refresh speed. Drawing speeds basically try to draw as fast as they possibly can and hitting 60 frames per second is more of a benchmark. As for the game loop updating, I imagine the amount of fidelity for your perfect blocks will stay intact because these game loops are usually like 100 updates per second and above and are not reliant on drawing. (I could be wrong because I've never made a console game.)
I can't speak to the other concerns, but I think at the very least you can be sure that 30 fps won't dull your ability to pull off the perfect blocks. If you're thinking that because you see only half the frames, that you will have more trouble reacting to the exact frame with your button press, um... well there might be some truth to that. Normally people can't tell the difference between 30 and 60 frames, but if you can tell... then... I guess I think you'll probably have no trouble pulling them off.
I hope that helps.
I can't speak to the other concerns, but I think at the very least you can be sure that 30 fps won't dull your ability to pull off the perfect blocks. If you're thinking that because you see only half the frames, that you will have more trouble reacting to the exact frame with your button press, um... well there might be some truth to that. Normally people can't tell the difference between 30 and 60 frames, but if you can tell... then... I guess I think you'll probably have no trouble pulling them off.
I hope that helps.
Great analysis of DMC's combat.
Yeah, I understand that series change can be good, but as Jim mentioned previously, change for change's sake does no good on its own. It has to have the backbone (the gameplay) to back it up.
Also, it begs the question: How much can a series change and still carry the soul of the franchise? This game could easily be a new IP no problem. Why tack the name onto a franchise and then water down and simplify everything that made DMC so great?
This is coming from someone who played DMC 1-3, disliked them at first, and is looking to delve back into them.
Yeah, I understand that series change can be good, but as Jim mentioned previously, change for change's sake does no good on its own. It has to have the backbone (the gameplay) to back it up.
Also, it begs the question: How much can a series change and still carry the soul of the franchise? This game could easily be a new IP no problem. Why tack the name onto a franchise and then water down and simplify everything that made DMC so great?
This is coming from someone who played DMC 1-3, disliked them at first, and is looking to delve back into them.
I'm not a huge DMC fan. Played all the games, but never really concerned myself with mastering combos or anything - just played them for the experience, really. I'm fapping for the sheer amount of effort you've put into highlighting these points.
Fame Designer...
Mostly it comes down to luck and tells. You're not reacting to something one or two frames before, you're reacting fifteen frames before BUT you have to have frame-perfect timing for the block to work.
For example, in Devil May Cry 4, catching and returning Credo's thrown spears with Nero's Devil Buster required you to carefully time the button press so that he'd catch it at exactly the right moment: Doing so rewarded you with a punishing attack to toss back at Credo instead of having to dodge. A lot of the fights in Devil May Cry games are based around this risk vs. reward principal, with very careful timing rewarding the skilled player. In fact, Dante's Royal Guard combat style is based entirely around creating these moments for yourself whenever you damned well please... And punishing your enemy by releasing that attack power back at them.
Both are examples which can require frame-perfect timing. Cutting the number of frames the engine renders and accounts for also doubles the timing on certain moves. If Devil May Cry 4 were played at 30 FPS instead of 60 FPS, it would become a LOT easier for Royal Guard Dante and Nero in general.
Mostly it comes down to luck and tells. You're not reacting to something one or two frames before, you're reacting fifteen frames before BUT you have to have frame-perfect timing for the block to work.
For example, in Devil May Cry 4, catching and returning Credo's thrown spears with Nero's Devil Buster required you to carefully time the button press so that he'd catch it at exactly the right moment: Doing so rewarded you with a punishing attack to toss back at Credo instead of having to dodge. A lot of the fights in Devil May Cry games are based around this risk vs. reward principal, with very careful timing rewarding the skilled player. In fact, Dante's Royal Guard combat style is based entirely around creating these moments for yourself whenever you damned well please... And punishing your enemy by releasing that attack power back at them.
Both are examples which can require frame-perfect timing. Cutting the number of frames the engine renders and accounts for also doubles the timing on certain moves. If Devil May Cry 4 were played at 30 FPS instead of 60 FPS, it would become a LOT easier for Royal Guard Dante and Nero in general.
I've never played any of these games so I can't really comment, but I really hope this turns out well. I'd hate to see Ninja Theory get their asses kicked by a bunch of rabid fans :)
"As for the game loop updating, I imagine the amount of fidelity for your perfect blocks will stay intact because these game loops are usually like 100 updates per second and above and are not reliant on drawing. (I could be wrong because I've never made a console game.)"
If by game loop updating, you mean looking for and applying user inputs as they're made, you'd be surprised. Eurogamer found that in games that hovered around 60 FPS, the input latency usually hovered around 67 ms, where as in 30 FPS games, that number was often doubled to around 133 ms at best with some games exceeding even that.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-lag-factor-article
To give you some context of what he's talking about when he refers to Royal Guards and Releases: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK0L9HHyD7s
The first release, so you know what you're looking for is at 9 seconds. The first parry (As in a regular weapon parry) is at 13 seconds, and a Royal Guard block is at 2:13. What makes DMC even more annoying is that the series employs a ranking system to boot that takes damage into account and on most difficulty settings, even the slightest bit of chip damage is enough to forfeit an "S" ranking. If you're off by even a single frame of an insanely tiny window to pull off a perfect parry or a release, that's a perfect rank run squandered.
Now try imagining being expected to identify those super brief animation cues at a less than ideal framerate in the first place made even worse (All of Ninja Theory's projects to this point have struggled to attain a consistent 30 FPS to start with) and being able to consistently respond with frame-perfect timing with more latency than would be there in a 60 FPS game and something that was already absurdly difficult becomes nearly impossible.
If by game loop updating, you mean looking for and applying user inputs as they're made, you'd be surprised. Eurogamer found that in games that hovered around 60 FPS, the input latency usually hovered around 67 ms, where as in 30 FPS games, that number was often doubled to around 133 ms at best with some games exceeding even that.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-lag-factor-article
To give you some context of what he's talking about when he refers to Royal Guards and Releases: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK0L9HHyD7s
The first release, so you know what you're looking for is at 9 seconds. The first parry (As in a regular weapon parry) is at 13 seconds, and a Royal Guard block is at 2:13. What makes DMC even more annoying is that the series employs a ranking system to boot that takes damage into account and on most difficulty settings, even the slightest bit of chip damage is enough to forfeit an "S" ranking. If you're off by even a single frame of an insanely tiny window to pull off a perfect parry or a release, that's a perfect rank run squandered.
Now try imagining being expected to identify those super brief animation cues at a less than ideal framerate in the first place made even worse (All of Ninja Theory's projects to this point have struggled to attain a consistent 30 FPS to start with) and being able to consistently respond with frame-perfect timing with more latency than would be there in a 60 FPS game and something that was already absurdly difficult becomes nearly impossible.
Furthermore, how absurd is it to claim the environment as the excuse for lower frame rate. Have you seen Bayonetta!? That game was filled with God of War-degrees of dynamic, interactive locales, and it blew through 60 fps (on xbox).
Jump canceling and just guards were the pinnacle of precision for action games, and they really show you that the point of the game isn't just to kick ass, but it serves as a means for giving you a tool set for attempting perfection. I always looked at technical action games in the same light as golf; you're competing with your own execution more than the obstacles in the game. None of that seems apparent in DmC. It seems as shallow as many other games that water down the genre.
Jump canceling and just guards were the pinnacle of precision for action games, and they really show you that the point of the game isn't just to kick ass, but it serves as a means for giving you a tool set for attempting perfection. I always looked at technical action games in the same light as golf; you're competing with your own execution more than the obstacles in the game. None of that seems apparent in DmC. It seems as shallow as many other games that water down the genre.
