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About
I'm 21 years old and primarily play games on the 360. I'm always interested in playing with people, so just send me a friend request! Maybe send me a message here as well, so I'll know where you're from. I collect 360 games (180 and counting), Mighty Muggs, and Scott Pilgrim stuff. My room is full of nerd detritus and I like it that way.
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AlmostApollo
8:44 PM on 02.24.2012

What is a game? A miserable little pile of systems. It's a dumb thing to say, certainly, but when you can truly forget this is when games are at their best. 

Immersion is a strange, fickle beast. The more immersed you are in a world, the more likely you are to spend hours upon hours inside it. The more hours you spend inside it, the more likely you are to lose that immersion entirely. 

Have you ever played a game so much that you know its animations, its mechanics, its systems inside and out? It's kind of like being Neo inside the Matrix, the code laid bare in front of you. But instead of being a god, able to bend it all to your will, you are just a casual observer. The code is laying on the floor, naked and bare, but it is also static, unchangeable. 

Unchangeable. 

Just like that, the immersion snaps. It's one of the major reasons that Skyrim will never be a great game to me. Its attention to detail, its world-building, its sense of scale are all second to none when it comes to immersion, but it wears its systems on its sleeve, showing me that it really isn't anything but 1's and 0's. Static, unchangeable 1's and 0's. 

Game design comes in loops. Whether it's the combat loop, the dialogue loop, the obligatory lockpicking loop, it doesn't really matter. When you start to decompose the content in even one of these loops, things start to become a problem. As soon as you figure out how something "works," the disassembling begins. With Skyrim, this started almost immediately for me as soon as I saw that all objects are there just to be opened. Chests, barrels, crates, corpses, it doesn't matter. They all "open" the same way. They remain static in the world and a menu pops up. Immersive. 

The major question is: How can a game like Skyrim, whose major focus is seemingly immersion in an epic fantasy world fail so badly at it?

Games like Red Dead Redemption seem to understand that goal far better than any Bethesda-made RPG out there. The key to immersion isn't dense environments, highly populated towns, and lengthy, detailed dialogue trees. In fact, it's quite the opposite. 

Red Dead Redemption's sparse Western landscape is the major reason it's so successful in creating immersion. John Marston can ride anywhere he wants to, go in any building he wants to, and explore anywhere that is physically possible. That's the key to immersion. Limiting the player in plausible ways, but never limiting the player in arbitrary ways. 

In RDR, when I run up against a mountain that's too steep to climb, my horse starts to fall down it. In Skyrim, I hit an invisible wall while my animation continues and I just have to sidle and jump around a few times to get past it. 

It wouldn't be that big of an issue in Skyrim, either, if its navigation system wasn't so abhorrent. It's easier to fidget your way up the mountain than it is to actually find a good path. The compass also brings up far out of sight areas for you to explore, which your character had no reason to even know are there. Mix this with the fact that you always want to seek them out so that you can fast-travel to them just to skip the walking in the first place and it's a sign of a major problem. 

I guess this is where I mention that I never used the fast-travel system in RDR. Not once. The exploration and traveling was so well done that I always wanted to see the sights and random occurrences that would happen along the way. 

It doesn't help Skyrim's case that the player character is so utterly devoid of personality. It doesn't matter if there are three hundred thousand townsfolk in the game if I can't do anything interesting with them. Sure, I can stop and ask them if they need any questing done, but that's about it. I can ask them questions, pick their pockets, or kill them, but none of those things actually amount to an interesting interaction. If I talk to them, a menu opens up with a few mostly uninteresting dialogue choices. If I pickpocket them, a menu opens up as if they were a chest. If I kill them, nothing of worth happens and I get to open them like a chest. Maybe a guard comes and I have to answer some choices on another menu. Riveting stuff. 

In RDR, there are few NPC's compared to Skyrim and most of them have even fewer interactions. This is far preferable, though, because none of the interactions feel intrusive. None of them open menus. Maybe I kill the woman in the street. At least when I loot her, I'll actually bend over and search her pockets. There's less reason to do so, maybe, but at least it isn't relegated down to a menu. Maybe I'll just walk by. Chances are they'll have something to say and Marston will say something back. At least it's a two-sided conversation this way. At least it's not a menu. 

It's also important to give the player the right tools for the job. It's up to the designer to give the player tools that they can use to their full potential. The player should never feel like they can't do something they want to do with the tools they've been given. Maybe they don't have the right tool for what they want to do. That's fine. But when a tool they have is not programmed to do something it should be able to do, that's where the problems come in. 

If I wasn't able to use that lasso in RDR to hogtie my enemies or lead cattle on the farm, I would be disappointed and taken out of the experience. But I can. The lasso really feels and behaves like a lasso; the guns feel like guns. That's all the tools that Marston needs and they work like expected. That goes a long way. 

In Skyrim, the player is given the biggest tool of them all: magic. That should be awesome, right? It's too bad you can't do a lot of what you want with it. You can't use your magic to help you get through that mountain. You can't use it to make your enemies do what you want. The combat magic works just as intended, but the other schools have major problems. Everything you can do with them has far too much transparency. When you unlock a door with magic, you don't feel like it wiggled the latch, you feel like it changed the 1 that meant locked to a 0 that meant unlocked. When you become invisible, you don't feel invisible, you feel like the enemies saw you, but was told not to activate their combat systems. It's a weird thing to bring attention to, but it's worthwhile. 

It's a shame, too. The world and the craft is all there to make Skyrim the most immersive game imaginable, but it gets bogged down in its own systems. The systems it has are too transparent, but the systems it lacks are more-so. If immersion was truly the intent of Bethesda, they need to learn that immersion is every bit as hinged on gameplay as it is in the world itself. Every step I take towards actually playing Skyrim as a game takes me one step farther away from appreciating it as a living, breathing world. A living, breathing world they created, but ultimately destroy with their gameplay. 

Every time I play Skyrim, I can see the code. I see what's happening behind the scenes, what's triggering the circumstances. It's static. It's unchangeable. It's a damned shame.



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You pretty much summed up everything I feel toward immersion, and Skyrim's believability. When you can feel a game getting reduced to triggers and variables, you know something's wrong.
I know exactly what you’re talking about, I love that period where you can’t see the clockwork behind a game, before it loses that “new car smell”.

Bethesda seriously need to overhaul the way they make games, the combat is already dull and uninteresting but the fact that every hit makes the game stutter while it does the math to figure out how much I hurt something is ridiculous. They get big stuff right but the million little things they get wrong can add up to a hell of a (sometimes literal) gamebreaker, I pray they use a new engine for the next Fallout.
"Morrowind is a better GAME to play, but Oblivion is a better game to PLAY."

This quote is how I feel about Skyrim. The lack of depth in everything really cuts you deep when you hit the metaphorical walls.

Me: "Oh, I can duel wield spells and staves but can I enchant a staff for me to use?

Skyrim: "No."

Me: "Can I at least make scrolls by enchanting the rolls of paper everywhere?"

Skyrim: "No."

Me: "Can I make my own spells since this flamethrower spells is no longer effective against anything?"

Skyrim: "No."

Me: "How many Destruction magic spells are there?"

Skyrim: "3 Novice spells, 6 Apprentice spells, 6 Adept spells, 6 Expert spells, and 3 Master spells equaling 24 spells."

Me: "How many did Oblivion have?"

Skyrim: "11 Novice spells, 18 Apprentice spells, 19 Journeyman(Adept) spells, 17 Expert spells, and 9 Master spells equaling 74 spells."

Me: "So I'm gonna guess the Shout powers aren't great in variety are they?"

Skyrim: "No."

Me: "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUS RO DAH!!!"
This was very well written. Please continue doing that. Sprinkling images seems to placate the masses, but I for one am fine with it as it is.

Your grievances with Skyrim makes me think you might enjoy--and someone is gonna come in here and yelling at me for sounding like a broken record--Dark Souls. There are some numbers in the game, but in terms of immersion, I think it ends up being far more so than Skyrim.

It has that sparseness you mentioned, and every area is unique, focused, scoped, and memorable. I have pretty much every inch and detail of the entire world memorized at this point, out of necessity in traversing it.

There are relatively few NPCs, but each has a really distinctive personality and story that you can follow if you expend some effort.

Anyway, I think it sounds like something you might like, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it if you try it.

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