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I'm pretty sure every Bioware game, after Shattered Steel, has had the same plot elements. More so after they developed Knights of the Old Republic. Still they make pretty good games, so I guess maybe I can overlook the cliche Star Wars plot points in their games.
Every story has a structure, otherwise it wouldn't be a story. RPG's in general use similar story elements, so why rag on Bioware for it? I loved the story in ME1, I'll continue enjoying it through ME2. Now if you really want to 'go there' let's try bringing up any JRPG for 'generic, predictable story elements.'
Not that I dislike JRPG's, mind you. Still waiting on Resonance of Fate.
Not that I dislike JRPG's, mind you. Still waiting on Resonance of Fate.
So really, instead of denying that there's no variety in their storytelling, he justifies it by explaining that 'good' writers stick to an established formula? Brilliant. Of course, I like Bioware storytelling, so I don't mind, but his rant was pointless.
Also, no matter how many times I hear or read the word 'butthurt', it never stops being funny.
Also, no matter how many times I hear or read the word 'butthurt', it never stops being funny.
It's not all about the structure of the main story arc, which is the same for every game/book/story ever, look at PwnanObrien's reply, it's about the side quests and the subject matter at hand, and in that department BioWare excels.
Of course stories are very similar... I also think Bioware tends to follow specific styles of telling their stories, but why is that bad? That has much more to do with how much I love their games. They do a great job at pulling your character into these worlds they establish and throwing you around them on a craaaazy adventure! I'm sure they, and all game writers, don't get taken seriously because, well, they write video game stories. If I was them I would be tired of people mocking me on a regular basis especially if I was Bioware, a company that has always pushed to put story first.
oh, and a 91 average is not bad Jim. I'm pretty sure your 7.5 is the lowest score I've seen. And since a 7.5 isn't a "bad" score as I know you know why flame bait?
oh, and a 91 average is not bad Jim. I'm pretty sure your 7.5 is the lowest score I've seen. And since a 7.5 isn't a "bad" score as I know you know why flame bait?
Damn it PwnanObrien and Messer beat me to it. That having been said, the guy has come across as incredibly prissy. This was something that should have been shrugged off as a harmless jibe.
There's bound to be similarities between stories no matter what you do. If nothing else since people keep buying it it means we like how they weave those stories and implement them. Regardless of them having similar plot elements or not.
I have no problem with BioWare stories. In fact, half the time that's the only thing I like about a BioWare game. Nevertheless, this guy's reaction was hilarious.
what zarathustra said.
guy should have just laughed it off. its just a chart. as he said, you can do this with any genre of story telling so why he takes such offense to it i don't know. maybe its a deep seeded feeling of guilt or shame.
guy should have just laughed it off. its just a chart. as he said, you can do this with any genre of story telling so why he takes such offense to it i don't know. maybe its a deep seeded feeling of guilt or shame.
I thoroughly enjoyed both Jade Empire and KotOR but that doesn't mean I didn't get a very distinct feeling of deja vu over and over and over again.
Weekes could have responded with a bit more grace, I think. I thought the chart was hilarious, but that doesn't mean that I dislike Bioware's work or find it lazy or redundant. Just because someone is joking about what you do doesn't mean that they hate it. Sense of humor: get one.
Bioware makes my favorite games. I think they have some of the best story telling in the industry. That being said, they're starting to get a little redundant from KoTOR forward. A lot of that has to do with sticking to solid, proven, and archetypal story structures which work in almost any medium, along with certain story conventions that lend themselves well to game structure. The linear beginning and end with a creamy center of choices and plot points that can be explored in any order. It's all cliched because it works so well. But Bioware needs to shake things up a little.
@zanthox
eurogamer gave the console version a 6. and people were not happy over there.
i love the stories, mass effect in particular. i mean of all the games, dragon age has had so much put into it storywise. and it flows, it never feels like your doing part 1 part 2 etc
eurogamer gave the console version a 6. and people were not happy over there.
i love the stories, mass effect in particular. i mean of all the games, dragon age has had so much put into it storywise. and it flows, it never feels like your doing part 1 part 2 etc
That Ian Cheung guy is pretty cool. And Bioware can grow up and own up to it. It's not even phrased negatively.
I'd rather have a predictable, understandable plot than have to suffer through some more Hideo Kojima inspired, loosely tied together random japan-a-what-the-fuck-is-going-on BS.
Yeah, I'm 'playing' MGS4 right now...
Yeah, I'm 'playing' MGS4 right now...
People like to laugh at this guy and make fun of him, But you have to see it from his perspective. The guy spends, literally, years concocting a story for people to enjoy and then some troll (most likely trolls because this is probably not the first time it has been done, just the most prominent), comes out from under his bridge and just starts undermining the quality of your work and it's relevance. I could see how it could make people sore to read stuff like that.
That's why you always play BioWare games as an "evil" character at least once. It makes for the change of dialogue that would otherwise be pretty predictable. Even if BioWare makes great stories, this guy is obviously overreacting to a joke. For shame.
Wait a sec. Isn't this the thing that makes every romantic novel/movie/"comedy" meaningless and not worth anybodies time? By the way can we please stop with obviously evil guys who betray you at the last minute? Is it that hard to not make dark circles around their eyes and armor that is a bit more spiky and gritty? I like Dragon Age so far but that part made my teeth hurt.
Have you noticed that every destructoid article is the same? Over blown title, mocking of game devs, humorous interpretation thinly veiling opinion, and then self-advertising link?
Seriously though - bioware has great stories, but they are by-the-book. Nothing worth crying over.
Seriously though - bioware has great stories, but they are by-the-book. Nothing worth crying over.
That is a surprising reaction to be sure. If he's smart enough to know about Campbellian archetypes he should know that most of the greatest literature throughout history is intensely formulaic. I don't see why someone pointing out to him that his writing is too should come as such an offense. I would just be flattered that someone had thought about my writing for long enough to see an overarching pattern in it. I think he missed the point entirely.
Yeah, I work as a scriptwriter for movies, and yeah you can count the number of 3 act plots with your fingers and toes. But it's the characters that make stories infinite. And I think Bioware has that in spades (given the industry).
Cambelliam archetypes? Hello! Campbell was mainly just following and popularizing the prior work of Carl Jung. (Yeah the Fruedian student who looked at myths and folk tales and dreams and saw them all as a window into the collective unconsious mind).
That said who cares about cliche? The story is usually less important than how you TELL that story as far as entertainment value goes.
That said who cares about cliche? The story is usually less important than how you TELL that story as far as entertainment value goes.
Honestly, the moment I realized I was being inducted into the Grey Wardens, I immediately noticed that Bioware does basically the same thing every time, structurally.
Like everyone does, I guess. They just happen to make their pieces very pronounced.
Structure aside, the meat of a BioWare joint is in the storytelling, and I think they've really out done themselves with Dragon Age (so far).
Like everyone does, I guess. They just happen to make their pieces very pronounced.
Structure aside, the meat of a BioWare joint is in the storytelling, and I think they've really out done themselves with Dragon Age (so far).
I see the reaction as being in line with a seasoned writer watching someone with a Writing 205 level of familiarity with the writing process criticizing him for using elements of WRITING in his work. I mean, it was funny, and did a good job of laying out the common thingies you'll see in that kind of work, but I can hardly fault the guy for being put off that some bachelor's degree twat who's probably never written anything himself is ragging on his babies. It's not like he put out a press release saying so-and-so is a doody head. He responded. On a forum. *Gasp*
I have no beef against BioWare or this writer but I am so tired of seeing people name-dropping Joseph Campbell time and time again to defend the legitimacy of every good and bad story and story decision in history. It reminds me of the people who defend every silly backwards idea they have for society by pointing to some page in the Bible.
I'm surprised that this is only incorporating Bioware's rpgs as compared to the clichés that are dead horsed in all the jrpgs.
@ Bugsport
I can't really agree with saying that he spent "years" writing ME2. ME1 came out 2 years ago, and I doubt that it took him more than a year to write this story up.
Also this.
I can't really agree with saying that he spent "years" writing ME2. ME1 came out 2 years ago, and I doubt that it took him more than a year to write this story up.
Also this.
Basic layout =/= The whole story.
The basic shit may be generic, but they mix it up fabulously. I really liked the twist with the Citadel at the end of ME, for example. HOW THE FUCK IS THAT GENERIC, EH?
The basic shit may be generic, but they mix it up fabulously. I really liked the twist with the Citadel at the end of ME, for example. HOW THE FUCK IS THAT GENERIC, EH?
All great stories can be reduced to certain elements. There's a reason the heroes of old myths share so many elements. Granted, I haven't seen this chart (You didn't link to it!), but the contents would probably fit on Star Wars, Harry Potter and the latest popular RomCom, with a little tweaking.
In other words it's a silly thing to get upset over, Bioware is good at telling stories.
In other words it's a silly thing to get upset over, Bioware is good at telling stories.
Campbellian archetypes are exactly the kind of generalizations that Weekes is mocking, and yet he attempts to use them to his defense. Also, the chart is more specific than Campbellian archetypes. It predicts behavior to a greater level of detail.
Not complaining, I am enjoying Dragon Age and I liked Mass Effect. But I am noticing several similarities, and not just the standard structure that stories follow (Pwnan Obrien's link, Star Wars sticks to it like flies on shit) but I'm noticing that both games' world's have the same prejudice issues between races, it's just medieval fantasy races as opposed to galactic races, and the problem is also solved in the same manner (Hero creates multiracial group, overcomes blah blah blah) but I also know that you can NOT do that, but I haven't tried that yet, think I'll make a Dalish Rogue next time and go solo, but we'll see.
So what would have been a non-butthurt response from Bioware? I suppose he could have written a snarky article called "How to Respond to Bioware Story Criticism", right? Because that's way classier.
Personally, I love Bioware stories, and the dude has every right to respond to something on his own Web site.
Personally, I love Bioware stories, and the dude has every right to respond to something on his own Web site.
"So what would have been a non-butthurt response from Bioware? I suppose he could have written a snarky article called "How to Respond to Bioware Story Criticism", right? Because that's way classier."
At least the humor in his response would have been intentional that way.
At least the humor in his response would have been intentional that way.
Ha, very true. Though you have to keep in mind that Bioware does not equal that one writer.
Story aside, if he defended constant buggy-ness in Bioware games, that's pure hilarity.
Story aside, if he defended constant buggy-ness in Bioware games, that's pure hilarity.
UglyDuck,
"This coming from someone who only responds to negative comments on his articles."
hahaha.. nice one. Well played. It is funny how suddenly the humor goes out the window during that moment.
Whatever, this guy just responded appropriately to some criticism. You're trying to make a story here, about a guy who is "butthurt", when he doesn't really seem to be to me. I'm sure he's crying the entire time he's cashing his big checks.
Lame attempt at sensationalism, in my opinion.
"This coming from someone who only responds to negative comments on his articles."
hahaha.. nice one. Well played. It is funny how suddenly the humor goes out the window during that moment.
Whatever, this guy just responded appropriately to some criticism. You're trying to make a story here, about a guy who is "butthurt", when he doesn't really seem to be to me. I'm sure he's crying the entire time he's cashing his big checks.
Lame attempt at sensationalism, in my opinion.
Weekes clearly takes pride in his job, and I think this is an appropriate response. He tries to use some humor and explain his point while defending his career.
Dragon Age Origins is the best RPG ever made by a considerable margin. Anyone who disagrees is either a casual gamer or an idiot.
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