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The next Dragon Age totally needs a guest appearance by Hope... so he can die horribly while splattering the rest of the party with blood to comedic effect.
And yes, ME2 is an "RPG" where you create (ie customize physical appearance of PC), follows a set of events, where you control 1 outta 3 party members, search items on missions, kill mooks, kill boss, level up, profit......
Pot, meet Kettle.
Pot, meet Kettle.
Mass Effect 2 may have been utterly awesome, and Final Fantasy XIII may not have been the best of games, but do Bioware not have anything better to do than make comments on other games?
Fuck sake Bioware, let your game's do the talking, not your bitchy opinions.
All this industry publisher/development houses slagging each other is really pissing me off, anyone else agree?
Fuck sake Bioware, let your game's do the talking, not your bitchy opinions.
All this industry publisher/development houses slagging each other is really pissing me off, anyone else agree?
"You don’t make any choices, you don’t create a character, you don’t live your character… I don’t know what those are --adventure games maybe? But they’re not RPG’s."
uh...aren't ALL final fantasies like that?
uh...aren't ALL final fantasies like that?
I bet Square Enix doesn't care since FFVII is still more famous than any Bioware RPG game *maybe except for KOTOR*
Great points, Jim. I disagree with you on a lot of stuff :-), but you're right on about the point of labels like "RPG." At the end of the day, I just need something to quickly get the point across when a friend asks "what type of game is X?".
We used to use terms like "RPG" vs. "PC-style RGP" to diffentiate. With the rise of BioWare and Bethesda on consoles, "RPG" as an unqualified term has become more confusing. These days we say stuff like "FF-style RPG" and "Western RPG" to differentiate.
We used to use terms like "RPG" vs. "PC-style RGP" to diffentiate. With the rise of BioWare and Bethesda on consoles, "RPG" as an unqualified term has become more confusing. These days we say stuff like "FF-style RPG" and "Western RPG" to differentiate.
Now while I utterly love Mass Effect 2 it was not an RPG in any sense of the word either. It was cover based shooter that had a story with some half done attempts at RPG elements thrown in there at what appears to be the last minute. FF13 is an RPG albeit my second to least favorite in the series. By his definition none of the FF where RPGs except 11 and FF was a major contributor to the creation of the genre so I am not sure why he thinks its not an RPG.
I will go the same way: Mass Effect 2 is not an RPG. You don't get experience points, you don't change equipment (other than the main guy) and your performance depends more on your aiming skills than your equipment management skill. I don’t know what those are --third person shooters maybe? But they’re not RPG’s.
Well, I don't agree with that statement, but I don't completely disagree with either it. RPG does still stand for Role Playing Game. In FFXIII, every relevant role and action was pre-defined.
The only choice the player really has is their party, where they spend their CP, what weapons they craft, and how much grinding they do before the end of the game. And you can't even control your party until your about half way through the game.
Though in all fairness, Bioware's choices are often illusions of choice. The same set piece events happen, they usually unfold the same way, and the endings are very binary, but I am hopeful for them based on what I see them building in Mass Effect. ME3 could really deliver different experiences based on what you did in the last two games, but I still fear the good ending/bad ending complex they seem to have.
The only choice the player really has is their party, where they spend their CP, what weapons they craft, and how much grinding they do before the end of the game. And you can't even control your party until your about half way through the game.
Though in all fairness, Bioware's choices are often illusions of choice. The same set piece events happen, they usually unfold the same way, and the endings are very binary, but I am hopeful for them based on what I see them building in Mass Effect. ME3 could really deliver different experiences based on what you did in the last two games, but I still fear the good ending/bad ending complex they seem to have.
bioware doesn't know shit of what an RPG really is...there are three basic elements that define it
One is a statistical setup for characters that describe certain skills/aspects of that character. Two, a method of increasing and strengthening those statistics (usually but not necessarily by way of the experience/level system). Three, a menu-driven combat system that utilizes the skills/aspects of the characters.
There are other elements as the ones Bioware mentions as well but these are the basic must have that a game can be labeled RPG.
According to these FFXIII is an RPG
One is a statistical setup for characters that describe certain skills/aspects of that character. Two, a method of increasing and strengthening those statistics (usually but not necessarily by way of the experience/level system). Three, a menu-driven combat system that utilizes the skills/aspects of the characters.
There are other elements as the ones Bioware mentions as well but these are the basic must have that a game can be labeled RPG.
According to these FFXIII is an RPG
Bioware didn't need to say anything regarding this. They could've just said we didn't like playing through FFXIII which I think would've been better overall to say than this. There are a lot of games considered RPG out there that I don't think should have that title but I play games because they had an appeal to me not because of genre. And in all honesty video games can't entirely recreate what table top RPGs do.
@patriot Snake
Actually it has a kind of a menu driven combat system that utilizes the skills you possess.
Zeldas for an example aren't RPG's
Actually it has a kind of a menu driven combat system that utilizes the skills you possess.
Zeldas for an example aren't RPG's
I agree with Jim, A Role Playing Game in the sense of the word and in games is a completely different thing. FFXIII is an RPG when it comes to game categories, Bioware is just being ignorant. It has been like this for years, just look at Dragon Quest and Chrono Trigger, doesn't Bioware realize the real meaning of RPGs? Gamers these days are uneducated about the meaning of RPGs, but a company shouldn't be so ignorant when it comes to these things.
Well, if you're going to be like that, then any game be argued as an RPG.
Role-playing game.
What game does the player not play a role in?
If you aren't playing a role, you aren't playing a game.
Role-playing game.
What game does the player not play a role in?
If you aren't playing a role, you aren't playing a game.
I will preface this statement by saying I love BioWare and everything they do, but in FF XIII's defence, I do believe that I was playing the role of several different characters in the game.
Silly BioWarez!
Silly BioWarez!
I'm with Jim on this one. The term RPG is a pretty arbitrary genre designation these days, and includes a wide variety of games by virtue of their including as little as one of a whole host of wildly different characteristics. It's almost a useless term, because unless you clarify quite a bit, saying 'rpg' doesn't necessarily tell you anything about a game.
This sort of genre diffusion can be seen across the spectrum of gaming, in large part because most of these terms were from the infancy of video gaming (or even before, in the case of 'rpg'). They can't possibly hope to describe the diversity we see in the medium today. The best we can do these days is to skip this sort of nondescriptive shorthand and actually describe each individual gameplay experience in full and specific detail.
If, that is, we're interested in doing more than just having bitch fights over genre designations.
This sort of genre diffusion can be seen across the spectrum of gaming, in large part because most of these terms were from the infancy of video gaming (or even before, in the case of 'rpg'). They can't possibly hope to describe the diversity we see in the medium today. The best we can do these days is to skip this sort of nondescriptive shorthand and actually describe each individual gameplay experience in full and specific detail.
If, that is, we're interested in doing more than just having bitch fights over genre designations.
Much like "Are games art," this is an argument that doesn't really have a right or wrong answer and therefore will never be truly settled.
Which isn't a bad thing at all. I just hope we all realize this.
Carry on.
Which isn't a bad thing at all. I just hope we all realize this.
Carry on.
Actually there are a lot of people that prefer that style of RPG's like FF's and other JRPG's where they lack the choices and follow on a rail to the story...give these people a lot of freedom and choices they feel overwhelmed and lose interest.
I just hope SE never adopts the WRPG formula...
I just hope SE never adopts the WRPG formula...
I could have told Bioware that, about FF13. After having to plodding through 90 some hours of that boring, f*cking mess. I could have told them that at 10 hours.
Both WRPGs and JRPGs are RPGs. In FF XIII you play the role of preset characters, in a preset storyline and customize your abilities to your liking (at least late in game you do.)
Either way, I think this Bioware guy definitely had some balls to call out Square, without JRPG titles like Final Fantasy, Zelda and the like in the early years of gaming it is debatable weather or not WRPGs would even exist...
Either way, I think this Bioware guy definitely had some balls to call out Square, without JRPG titles like Final Fantasy, Zelda and the like in the early years of gaming it is debatable weather or not WRPGs would even exist...
Wee SK:
Simple steps to stop getting annoyed by opinions, which everyone else entitled to express:
1. Close your eyes.
2. Stick your fingers in your ears.
3. Now go "lalalalalalalala" until you feel better.
Simple steps to stop getting annoyed by opinions, which everyone else entitled to express:
1. Close your eyes.
2. Stick your fingers in your ears.
3. Now go "lalalalalalalala" until you feel better.
@patriot snake
Exactly...I personaly don't like customizable characters,too much choices and exploration.I rather prefer a strong plot(with interesting plot twists) with preset characters to get to know them and a linear to some extend gameplay(not too much linear as XIII)
Exactly...I personaly don't like customizable characters,too much choices and exploration.I rather prefer a strong plot(with interesting plot twists) with preset characters to get to know them and a linear to some extend gameplay(not too much linear as XIII)
He's actually correct; it's just that games have been misusing the term for so long now that nobody cares. To me, FF XIII was much more an action/adventure game than an RPG as there were very little role-playing elements in it.
In D&D at least, for me the systems are really just part of delivering the story. They're designed to keep the players and DM each in posession of an appropriate amount of control.
I don't feel the need to speed run 'Dragon Mountain' or replay it as a half-orc Illusionist so I can experience it differently. Once is pretty much enough, no matter how much of a kobold fetish the DM in question may have - after that both they and the players should want some new experience for their characters to explore.
I've replayed some JRPGs, and at least one western CRPG (Dark Sun) but in that case there's a machine doing the heavy lifting, and it's more about finding all the secrets than it is about roleplaying.
I don't feel the need to speed run 'Dragon Mountain' or replay it as a half-orc Illusionist so I can experience it differently. Once is pretty much enough, no matter how much of a kobold fetish the DM in question may have - after that both they and the players should want some new experience for their characters to explore.
I've replayed some JRPGs, and at least one western CRPG (Dark Sun) but in that case there's a machine doing the heavy lifting, and it's more about finding all the secrets than it is about roleplaying.
Well said Mr. Sterling.
Semantics shmemantics. You can argue either way about any video game if you want to be a nit picky douche about it.
Semantics shmemantics. You can argue either way about any video game if you want to be a nit picky douche about it.
Leveling up, to me, is an RPG. I don't care if you don't make choices, that just makes your game more open-ended.
"without JRPG titles like Final Fantasy, Zelda and the like in the early years of gaming it is debatable weather or not WRPGs would even exist..."
Considering Dragon Quest (which predates FF1 by several years) was based on, I believe it was Ultima, your point is not only moot but it's wrong. Also FF1 rips off D&D so badly they had to change sprites in the US version to avoid getting sued for copyright infringement (beholder was changed to the eye).
That being said, I agree with those saying this is a pointless argument. It's a title given. Thus it doesn't matter. The only thing that should matter to anybody is whether or not you appreciate the item in question. Which Jim did not.
Considering Dragon Quest (which predates FF1 by several years) was based on, I believe it was Ultima, your point is not only moot but it's wrong. Also FF1 rips off D&D so badly they had to change sprites in the US version to avoid getting sued for copyright infringement (beholder was changed to the eye).
That being said, I agree with those saying this is a pointless argument. It's a title given. Thus it doesn't matter. The only thing that should matter to anybody is whether or not you appreciate the item in question. Which Jim did not.
I agree with Mr. Erickson. The first RPGs were of the table top variety. They were not really about combat and statistics but about choices and interactions. The first CRPGs focused on the combat/stat aspect of RPGs because of technical limitations. However, as technology progressed western developers were able to approximate the table top experience better and started making games such as Ultima 7, Daggerfall, Fallout, Planescape Torment, Mass Effect, ect..
Japanese developers never really evolved the genre beyond the combat and statistic aspect of the RPG. This does not mean that JRPG are bad games (I personally love them) . However, it is pretty clear to me that Japanese developers never really understood the more important aspect of the original table top RPGs.
Japanese developers never really evolved the genre beyond the combat and statistic aspect of the RPG. This does not mean that JRPG are bad games (I personally love them) . However, it is pretty clear to me that Japanese developers never really understood the more important aspect of the original table top RPGs.
@Patriot Snake
Agreed.But most WRPG's use backstory plots while most JRPG's use other methods like cutscenes,CGI's to unveil the story/plot and to get you familiar(and attached to some extend) with the characters
Agreed.But most WRPG's use backstory plots while most JRPG's use other methods like cutscenes,CGI's to unveil the story/plot and to get you familiar(and attached to some extend) with the characters
For Bioware, and for us old PC RPG players, an RPG means choice, character building and branching dialogue. That is just how it is. I have never considered Final Fantasy to be an RPG, any of them.
That's a perspective though... if someone else wants to call them RPGs what the fuck do I care.
That's a perspective though... if someone else wants to call them RPGs what the fuck do I care.
While i agree with the sentiment that ME:2 is not exactly an RPG, and that FF13 is putrefaction, in defense of Biware, they DO know how to make an RPG (as do Squenix), and anybody who contests otherwise has been playing too much PS2 all their life.
I rather agree with Bioware. To me an RPG is a "role playing game". If you can't create your character or make choices within the game then you're simply not "role playing". A game that tells a very specific story, that has a pre-determined main character - those are more in the "adventure" class games to me. I really don't see FF13 as being any different than Uncharted 2. They both tell as specific story about a specific person - no role playing needed.
The RPG term covers a vast range of stuff, and indeed as the genre has progressed the line has become very blurred.
On one hand, any game can be considered an rpg, these days. Think about that for a sec.
Bioware and Square are taking different roads in the rpgs plateau. Square have more or less hit a dead end, with their jrpg tropes now incredibly cliched and worn, and gameplay wise with FFXIII, they've decided to go more of an less options/more actionesque route. Personally, I'm done with FF, as their characters are too melodrama, plus none of them can totally die through my error.
Bioware on the other hand IMO, are more progressive in their way. Jade Empire to KOTOR to Mass Effect and Dragon Age, they are not afraid of change and pushing the boundaries. I play these more, because they offer a mature side to rpgs. While action of Mass Effect is more weapon based (some might frown on that), this doesn't make it much different from an old jrpgs like Secret of Mana, a style of action rpg that has more of less disappeared these days. Mana was also similar, where you also controlled 1 of 3 characters, while managing the other two. Bioware have done a great job, moulding their style of rpg with this kind of mentality with Mass Effect.
There's nothing wrong with some simplicity in rpgs to a degree, as it opens the barrrier of entry, to those who might not play at all. While Mass Effect might have done this, IMO, Square tend to change too much with their FF games. To play FFVII to XIII, those changes over the years are to much for some (sorry, don't have time to figure out you millionth different battles system, again). Square need to develop some more consistency, beyond the silly jrpg tropes they really need to dump, and Chocobos.
At the end of the day, both are still rpgs, just very different sides of the same coin. Square need to work on their side though, as the likes of a more progressive Demons Souls might steal their thunder.
On one hand, any game can be considered an rpg, these days. Think about that for a sec.
Bioware and Square are taking different roads in the rpgs plateau. Square have more or less hit a dead end, with their jrpg tropes now incredibly cliched and worn, and gameplay wise with FFXIII, they've decided to go more of an less options/more actionesque route. Personally, I'm done with FF, as their characters are too melodrama, plus none of them can totally die through my error.
Bioware on the other hand IMO, are more progressive in their way. Jade Empire to KOTOR to Mass Effect and Dragon Age, they are not afraid of change and pushing the boundaries. I play these more, because they offer a mature side to rpgs. While action of Mass Effect is more weapon based (some might frown on that), this doesn't make it much different from an old jrpgs like Secret of Mana, a style of action rpg that has more of less disappeared these days. Mana was also similar, where you also controlled 1 of 3 characters, while managing the other two. Bioware have done a great job, moulding their style of rpg with this kind of mentality with Mass Effect.
There's nothing wrong with some simplicity in rpgs to a degree, as it opens the barrrier of entry, to those who might not play at all. While Mass Effect might have done this, IMO, Square tend to change too much with their FF games. To play FFVII to XIII, those changes over the years are to much for some (sorry, don't have time to figure out you millionth different battles system, again). Square need to develop some more consistency, beyond the silly jrpg tropes they really need to dump, and Chocobos.
At the end of the day, both are still rpgs, just very different sides of the same coin. Square need to work on their side though, as the likes of a more progressive Demons Souls might steal their thunder.
I just assumed RPG meant really pathetic gamers.
Example: Really pathetic gamers play Final fantasy.
Example: Really pathetic gamers play Final fantasy.
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