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I believe they do suffer from a lack of evolution but thats why I like em. I grew up playing JRPGs and I'm finding it extremely difficult to really enjoy any WRPGs. I enjoy the same experience over and over because its something that I know I like. I'd rather not take the risk with something "different" only to end up disgusted, bored, and disappointed a la Fallout 3 and Oblivion. Dragon Age is the exception here though.
If it wasn't for the Persona series, I would whole heartedly agree with his stance on JRPGs. I'll still try out the new Final Fantasy, because I hope it'll change some of the mechanics that I have the biggest issues with, but I am already resigned to the fact that the story will basically be the same Final Fantasy story since the SNES.
The fact that random battles, something born out the the technical limitations of the 80's, still exist confirms this assertion.
There's definitely some truth in what Zeschuk says, as I think the Western developers are not afraid to try new things or to mix genres heavily. At the same time, I've yet to play an western RPG that doesn't feel like everyone is part of some single template that is simply bent into making each character and their respective "unique" features. I understand in a way that's just kind of making a game of a certain scope probably has to be, but it gives the game a very strong feeling of sameness throughout for me.
That all may just be from personal tastes. I feel like there really isn't a "better" RPG between the west and east, just different kinds. Play the ones you like and leave the ones you don't. It's pretty simple to me.
That all may just be from personal tastes. I feel like there really isn't a "better" RPG between the west and east, just different kinds. Play the ones you like and leave the ones you don't. It's pretty simple to me.
Probably true, but deliberately so in some cases. Much of the appeal of Dragon Quest is in its dependably-similar setup, which arguably makes Final Fantasy seem downright progressive by comparison. Me? I like all flavors of RPGs, thanks :)
I think the great thing about WRPGs is that it is getting harder to say what is and what isn't an RPG, most JRPGs are clear cut which I find boring.
sarcasm here: Can't wait for all the fanboys to flame this :(
sarcasm here: Can't wait for all the fanboys to flame this :(
Zeschuk's obviously right -- fans of the genre (myself included) have been bitching about it for a while -- but his focus on limited dialogue branches seems myopic. BioWare really prides itself on its dynamic conversation trees (and that's fine), but the implication seems to be that choice = good, linearity = bad, and I don't buy it.
Not only does the JRPG depend on a really guided narrative, but a lot of the appeal lies elsewhere. I don't care that I have to say "YES" at every dialogue box because learning how to bounce Flare off my entire part is fun. The deep calculus of input vs. output is changing (look at Persona, Final Fantasy XII), albeit slowly.
Not to mention that "lack of evolution" is hardly unique to JRPGs.
Not only does the JRPG depend on a really guided narrative, but a lot of the appeal lies elsewhere. I don't care that I have to say "YES" at every dialogue box because learning how to bounce Flare off my entire part is fun. The deep calculus of input vs. output is changing (look at Persona, Final Fantasy XII), albeit slowly.
Not to mention that "lack of evolution" is hardly unique to JRPGs.
What I want to know is how this trend of moral choice in RPGs (namely Bioware's) is revolutionary. The stuff they've put in their games that are supposed to invoke moral dilemmas in players is the same stuff I've been doing to other people in Ultima Online since '97 it's nothing new.
Well, I'll agree that there's not much evolution in jrpgs. At the same time, I don't really feel Bioware games have changed all that much since KOTOR outside of ME; and to address mass effect, I feel it's pulling away from it's rpg roots and heard straight towards 3rd person shooter (in fact, ME2 actually has more in common with games such as ratchet and clank than classic rpgs). Not that there's anything wrong with 3PS, but why the farce? What's wrong with just making a 3PS with a deep story?
square new stuff have been pretty bad except their DS stuff but thats because they still doing the whole squaresoft thing there i love jrpgs atlus and NIS know what they are doing I didnt really like fallout 3 or mass effect they were very boring to me just give me FF13 with the same old battle system and ill be happy.
*"headed straight towards". Not "heard straight towards" I probably shouldn't proofread while I'm still collecting my thoughts...
i see the whole genre as being very repetitive, and haven't play one all the way through since skies of arcadia. i hope someone comes up with a way to bring this genre up to date soon, because i'd really like to get back into large scale games.
@lolipantsu
Was Ultima Online a JRPG? Nope.
I don't think he said Bioware did anything revolutionary in the context of Rev's questions. He asserted that JRPGs have been stagnant versus WRPGS(including Ultima), not specifically Bioware's, though he probably would if you asked him.
Was Ultima Online a JRPG? Nope.
I don't think he said Bioware did anything revolutionary in the context of Rev's questions. He asserted that JRPGs have been stagnant versus WRPGS(including Ultima), not specifically Bioware's, though he probably would if you asked him.
I think there are a lot of things hurting JRPG's. One is a lack of innovation. Beyond that, however, I think that technological evolution has made Eastern cultural differences more apparent. You couldn't get away with JPOP bullshit on the SNES simply because it was impossible. Now you can't, and all the FF's suck.
This is coming from a guy who played almost all JRPG's for the better part of two decades. In the last 3-4 years, I've probably beaten like 1... Demon's Souls. Meanwhile, Fallout 3, Mount and Blade, Dragon Age Origins, and the Witcher have all been bested by myself....
This is coming from a guy who played almost all JRPG's for the better part of two decades. In the last 3-4 years, I've probably beaten like 1... Demon's Souls. Meanwhile, Fallout 3, Mount and Blade, Dragon Age Origins, and the Witcher have all been bested by myself....
I'm kind of disappointed that FFXIII isn't more like Rogue Galaxy in regards to the combat and is still sticking with the menu-based combat schema. I need a much more active combat system, even if the encounters are still random. I don't feel involved when I'm looking through menus to select attacks and then just sitting and watching them happen.
He's right in some ways that as a whole JRPGs haven't truly evolved, but there are a number of notable exceptions, and even the ones that haven't can even benefit from that as long as they are made well. (Games like Etrian Odyssey are good examples of this.)
I enjoy old-school JRPGs very much even to this day, and I'm glad they get to go play a JRPG and get one experience and then go play a WRPG and get a completely different one. If JRPGs suddenly "evolved" into a WRPG style I'd be incredibly disappointed. Why would I care about playing a game like Mass Effect if every other RPG did the same thing?
I enjoy old-school JRPGs very much even to this day, and I'm glad they get to go play a JRPG and get one experience and then go play a WRPG and get a completely different one. If JRPGs suddenly "evolved" into a WRPG style I'd be incredibly disappointed. Why would I care about playing a game like Mass Effect if every other RPG did the same thing?
as much as this might be the truth, western RPGs are already establishing their own pitfall. especially bioware. since KOTOR, a majority of their games have continually used a similar system and little if anything has changed. it feels just as repackaged as other games. their RPGs focus on the fact that you have multiple choices, but these moral choices have little outcome on the actual story. they sometimes affect how a specific event turns out, but not always. just because you're an evil bastard doesn't mean the whole world is out to kill you. side quests are particularly unrewarding. its better to have a well established storyline throughout than one that is incoherent. remember KOTOR? killing bastilla did nothing. she was still alive. remember KOTOR2? what the hell was that? remember jade empire?
coherent linear story > what the hell was that storyline
coherent linear story > what the hell was that storyline
Pot, meet kettle.
RPGs in general don't smack the evolution stick too much. Sometimes, that can be a good thing if the system is good enough. Other times, it just complicates the genre and nothing gets accomplished but a ton of complaints.
RPGs in general don't smack the evolution stick too much. Sometimes, that can be a good thing if the system is good enough. Other times, it just complicates the genre and nothing gets accomplished but a ton of complaints.
It's starting to get to me too, I'm just not really excited about FF13. I'll buy it for sure, but I don't have the anticipation I did for 10. I am, however, REALLY looking for forward to Mass Effect 2.
I personally feel the same can be said about sports, puzzle, racing, wrpgs, mmorpgs and sim games. The lack of innovation isn't the problem, there does need to be a game changer rpg, just very small innovation with drestically different stories. Stuff like persona thats set in modern day or is able to dating sim aspects. jrpgs should take advantages of other genres like other genres take advantage of the leveling system
Yeah, because FFXIII is exactly the same as FFVI in every aspect. Why are Western developers so stupid.
@UltorOscariot
My comment was more in regards to the remarks that JRPGs need to evolve made by the co-founder of a company that has been at the forefront of the WRPG genre. I'm just saying that what they're doing isn't anything new either and at this point I'd argue that WRPGs are already on their way to becoming as formulaic as JRPGs. I'm also not trying to say that UO is a JRPG :p
My comment was more in regards to the remarks that JRPGs need to evolve made by the co-founder of a company that has been at the forefront of the WRPG genre. I'm just saying that what they're doing isn't anything new either and at this point I'd argue that WRPGs are already on their way to becoming as formulaic as JRPGs. I'm also not trying to say that UO is a JRPG :p
@Joseph Leray: I couldn't agree with your statements more. Lack of evolution is everywhere in gaming, not simply confined to the JRPG. Additionally, I think you're right when you say that it's not 100% bad to have linear dialog choices compared to very dynamic ones which BioWare seems bent on creating.
The gaming landscape is constantly changing, with each respective genre continuously evolving. The problem is that the evolution is gradual and not extremely obvious spikes. What Zeschuk has said is just very narrow-minded and is more about stroking his ego than being an objective statement about JRPGs or any other gaming genre.
I think the issue here is more about audience rather than a genre-specific problem. Western audiences are looking for a variety of different things to please their gaming needs, where perhaps Eastern gamers are accustomed to similar experiences, stories and things which are more relevant to their cultures (speaking mainly of Japanese gamers here).
The gaming landscape is constantly changing, with each respective genre continuously evolving. The problem is that the evolution is gradual and not extremely obvious spikes. What Zeschuk has said is just very narrow-minded and is more about stroking his ego than being an objective statement about JRPGs or any other gaming genre.
I think the issue here is more about audience rather than a genre-specific problem. Western audiences are looking for a variety of different things to please their gaming needs, where perhaps Eastern gamers are accustomed to similar experiences, stories and things which are more relevant to their cultures (speaking mainly of Japanese gamers here).
I don't know if you can really call a shooter slapped on with RPG an evolution of any caliber either. Bioware who just did a poor remake of Buldar's Gate really has nothing to say about evolution. Right now there right behind the guys who Rainbow Six for slowest to patch in history.
What Orcist said.
Call me crazy, but I still feel that JRPGs get a bum rap. AAA titles like Persona, Valkyria Chronicles, Dragon Quest and Mario and Luigi are far, far from stagnant. It's just the oversaturation of shit like Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicle, Infinite Undiscovered, Star Ocean and so forth that crowds out the truly new and wonderful experiences. Kind of like FPSs. There's still a lot of great stuff coming out, it's just hard to see it through the deluge of shit.
Call me crazy, but I still feel that JRPGs get a bum rap. AAA titles like Persona, Valkyria Chronicles, Dragon Quest and Mario and Luigi are far, far from stagnant. It's just the oversaturation of shit like Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicle, Infinite Undiscovered, Star Ocean and so forth that crowds out the truly new and wonderful experiences. Kind of like FPSs. There's still a lot of great stuff coming out, it's just hard to see it through the deluge of shit.
JRPGs might be formulaic at times, but for me, the formula is actually soothing. Of course, this is because I feel comfortable with the formula more than anything else. :)
I kinda half agree with him. But it's often the innovative JRPGs that have often gotten less attention than the western variety.
I do agree with UltorOscariot that random battles are downright archaic. But random battles are slowly disappearing from JRPGs. Hell, they are practically gone from the mainline Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest series that were released over the past few years (FF 12, FF 13, DQ 9). The only mainstream JRPG series in the west that still has them is the main Pokemon series.
But yet it's games like Valkyria Chronicles, The World Ends With You, Persona 4 and the 3D entries of the 'Tales Of' series who are truly innovative and don't have random battles are still over shadowed by their western counterparts in terms of sales, coverage and marketing.
I do agree with UltorOscariot that random battles are downright archaic. But random battles are slowly disappearing from JRPGs. Hell, they are practically gone from the mainline Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest series that were released over the past few years (FF 12, FF 13, DQ 9). The only mainstream JRPG series in the west that still has them is the main Pokemon series.
But yet it's games like Valkyria Chronicles, The World Ends With You, Persona 4 and the 3D entries of the 'Tales Of' series who are truly innovative and don't have random battles are still over shadowed by their western counterparts in terms of sales, coverage and marketing.
what armis said, all western rpgs seem to be are shooters\ hack n slashes with good and evil systems, not exactly breaking any new ground there. I think people just aren't as worn about WRPG's because it caught on only recently while JRPGs have been around longer, but the same fate is going to fall upon them too at this rate.
Bioware is by far my favorite developer. That being said, they're pretty formulaic themselves. There's always the linear opening, the series of four quests that need to be completed in any order before locking you into a linear end game. I suppose the innovation comes in with the dynamic story telling, allowing the user to create their own tale. Normally open world/non-linear gameplay equals poor story telling. Linear story telling is usually the price paid for a tight narrative. Bioware is one of the only developers pushing the envelope giving users the best of both worlds.
Also, western developers (Bioware) can wake me up when the "moral" choices they've got such a boner for are no longer a min/maxing mechanic. I get the feeling that I'll be sleeping for a long time. :p
I don't have a problem with being led along by a story as long as it's interesting. One problem I have with WRPGs, specifically Bethesda's, is that there's so little story that I just end up spending all my time wandering around. That can be fun as well, but I end up feeling unsatisfied with the experience. It's like the difference between reading a book and reading the author's story outline prior to writing the book.
Then again, I find Bioware's stories to be quite interesting so I don't know...
*crickets*...On a completely unrelated note: So Anthony, how did you like Edmonton?
Then again, I find Bioware's stories to be quite interesting so I don't know...
*crickets*...On a completely unrelated note: So Anthony, how did you like Edmonton?
@ lolipantsu
Dragon age has plenty of difficult, gray area decisions that don't necessarily have a "good" option. It's starting to move beyond good and evil and simply into options territory, which is a huge improvement. Binary choices like Infamous are almost laughable.
Dragon age has plenty of difficult, gray area decisions that don't necessarily have a "good" option. It's starting to move beyond good and evil and simply into options territory, which is a huge improvement. Binary choices like Infamous are almost laughable.
@Filt (and Joseph Leray, by extension), I think you guys nailed it. As Pat at SMPS.net remarked way back with his FF writeups, part of what's going on is that these games are not being made with us uber-RPG veterans in mind (myself included). It's simply easier to reuse the same (or similar) bags of tricks based on what people had fun with before. Maybe it's not even an "Eastern-Western" thing, but we would have to have comments from veteran Japanese rpg gamers to substantiate that.
I am not saying it is not true, but sounds unfair considering their latest game is set in Tolkienland, the same as 99% of WRPGs...
The dialogue example is spot on, but otherwise I have to strongly disagree.
How many traditional, turn-based JRPGs have we had this generation? Not many, and the few that we did have mostly suffered from flaws that were not intrinsic to the gameplay (such as poor characters or a poor plot, etc.).
The problem this gen hasn't been lack of evolution, it's been evolution in all the wrong ways. How many more convoluted "systems" do we need thrown into our turn-based battles? I'm sick of it. Just give me a classic JRPG with modern graphics, along with characters and a plot that don't make me cringe! That's all I want! Is anybody listening!?
How many traditional, turn-based JRPGs have we had this generation? Not many, and the few that we did have mostly suffered from flaws that were not intrinsic to the gameplay (such as poor characters or a poor plot, etc.).
The problem this gen hasn't been lack of evolution, it's been evolution in all the wrong ways. How many more convoluted "systems" do we need thrown into our turn-based battles? I'm sick of it. Just give me a classic JRPG with modern graphics, along with characters and a plot that don't make me cringe! That's all I want! Is anybody listening!?
I think the main emphasis is the sheer mechanics of JRPGs. The sheer emphasis of one company to shoehorn the same turn-based fighting mechanics into almost every IP they are attached to is pretty unforgiveable. Watching recent FFxiii footage I felt myself literally sink seeing that absolutely nothing has changed minus the storyline which will, no doubt, fail to tackle any serious issue with any degree of sincerity or depth. I just have to agree with Muzyka entirely. I feel that Squeenix, as industry leaders in this area should really try to broaden their horizons and try something new.
Not to menction the level system in most of them is carbon copy of paper RPG, and the combat looks like an MMO, despite the depth you add to it.
@lolipantsu - Well to be fair, Namco put it on the disc, they just charged for people to unlock it. ;)
I know I might get flamed for this, but i'm gonna say it anyways.
JRPGs has been over the past few years has been ALOT more dominate on the portable platforms than the western role players. The same can be said for western rpgs being more successful than JRPGs on the consoles. Maybe Dr. Zeschuk is still kinda butt hurt over how well Sonic Chronicles against JRPGs on the DS.
JRPGs has been over the past few years has been ALOT more dominate on the portable platforms than the western role players. The same can be said for western rpgs being more successful than JRPGs on the consoles. Maybe Dr. Zeschuk is still kinda butt hurt over how well Sonic Chronicles against JRPGs on the DS.
Its hard for RPGs to evolve outside the staples of the genre. If theres a monster, KILL IT! And it explodes into gold coins. If someone threatens the world, KILL IT and get a FMV. Most RPGs have been cut& paste lately no matter what side of the world they come from.
That said I'm still going to try the new FF game. Being a fan boy is so hard lately. But anyone looking for a fun RPG thats different, try Eternal Sonata.
That said I'm still going to try the new FF game. Being a fan boy is so hard lately. But anyone looking for a fun RPG thats different, try Eternal Sonata.
The fall of the JRPG has nothing to do with a lack of evolution. Actually, they have been changing too much. That, or japanese developers just aren't trying. Final Fantasy XII is an example of the former, while The Last Remnant and Infinite Undiscovery is an example of the latter.
The Last Remnant went on sale on steam for $10.00, and i feel that's still too much for a sub-par game
The Last Remnant went on sale on steam for $10.00, and i feel that's still too much for a sub-par game
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