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Sometimes I have issues with Jim's assessment of issues like this, but I have to say he's spot on with this one.
The preemptive strike seems unnecessary, why not sue the people who are actually doing something wrong? Isn't this head-pikery a bit tyrannical?
Yeah I agree, Jim is spot on. I wish the idiots off the Minecraft forums would read this, bloody fanboys.
So then what's the deal with Mojang offering to change the name and Bethesda refusing to take the offer?
What a lame comment from Bethesda. Just saying you are being forced into it and that Notch isn't being completely forward doesn't make it true...enlighten us, please.
Notch ran his mouth and now he has to deal with the consequences.
I thought it was funny, and noble, but unless you know 100% that you won't face legal action, you should...not do that :p
I thought it was funny, and noble, but unless you know 100% that you won't face legal action, you should...not do that :p
Whoa. A non-inflammatory article that gives due consideration to both sides of the argument. I won't lie, I did a triple-take with the icon beside the title.
Yeah, too many people have a knee-jerk reaction to always side with the smaller company, even when they don't know the entire story. This isn't just about Mojang Games for Bethesda, it's about everything else that could possibly come after.
Yeah, too many people have a knee-jerk reaction to always side with the smaller company, even when they don't know the entire story. This isn't just about Mojang Games for Bethesda, it's about everything else that could possibly come after.
@unsilentwill
I don't agree with how it works, but my understanding is that copyright infringers could use this example as a legal precedence.
I don't agree with how it works, but my understanding is that copyright infringers could use this example as a legal precedence.
@unsilentwill this is from my own shitty understanding of trademark law, but I believe if Zenimax effectively ignores Mojang's possible infringement, it makes it more likely that other companies will succeed in attempts to really rip off the Elder Scrolls property. So, Zenimax has to show that they're actively protecting their brand to prevent future problems in court.
Notch is a fuckin tard and should have just backed down
he even said in the past that he wanted to make a elder scolls themed minecraft or something of that nature in the past while talking to todd howard on game informer and this "scrolls" game was obviously that
people just wana believe that notch is in the right because they are humbled and charmed by his neck beard and shit eating grin
he even said in the past that he wanted to make a elder scolls themed minecraft or something of that nature in the past while talking to todd howard on game informer and this "scrolls" game was obviously that
people just wana believe that notch is in the right because they are humbled and charmed by his neck beard and shit eating grin
All I know is that Sony didn't sue Epic Games when Epic made Gears of War. To me, Gears of War sounds like a new entry or a spin-off to the God of War series.
But you didn't see Sony lose the God of War-trademark when Gears of War became popular, now did they?
But you didn't see Sony lose the God of War-trademark when Gears of War became popular, now did they?
To anybody who was thinking clearly and not completely anti Bethesda, this should have been clear from the beginning.
I doubt we're getting all the info from either side, so I'll wait this one out. One thing I do know for a fact is that copyright laws are absolutely nuts and need a good fixin'.
The problem is that Notch isn't going after the trademark "scrolls" anymore, just the right to use the name in his upcomming game. Once they heard back from the Bethesda lawyers they wanted to drop the trademark case but still keep the name.
From here:
I just saw this:
http://kotaku.com/5846111/mojang-v-bethesda-or-i-hate-it-when-mommy-and-daddy-fight
I feel the need to clarify a couple of things:
We realized we should apply for the trademark “Minecraft” to protect our brand. When doing so, we also sent in an application for “Scrolls”. When Bethesda contacted us, we offered both to change the name to “Scrolls: <some subtitle>” and to give up the trademark.
They refused on both counts.
Whatever reason they have for suing us, it’s not a fear of us having a trademark on the word “Scrolls”, as we’ve offered to give that up.
http://notch.tumblr.com/
From here:
I just saw this:
http://kotaku.com/5846111/mojang-v-bethesda-or-i-hate-it-when-mommy-and-daddy-fight
I feel the need to clarify a couple of things:
We realized we should apply for the trademark “Minecraft” to protect our brand. When doing so, we also sent in an application for “Scrolls”. When Bethesda contacted us, we offered both to change the name to “Scrolls: <some subtitle>” and to give up the trademark.
They refused on both counts.
Whatever reason they have for suing us, it’s not a fear of us having a trademark on the word “Scrolls”, as we’ve offered to give that up.
http://notch.tumblr.com/
Being forced my ass. Why haven't they gone into private 'Negotiations' and strike a deal for an undisclosed sum and just charge Notch a dollar to trade mark the name and not tell anyone. Everyone is happy, Bethesda saves face and Notch can get on with his life.
Bethesda just wants to make an example of Notch and they think they can get some easy money out of this. If Skyrim isn't the second coming, people will crucify them.
Bethesda just wants to make an example of Notch and they think they can get some easy money out of this. If Skyrim isn't the second coming, people will crucify them.
"name and not tell anyone"
Yeah it's pretty fucking public by now so not telling anyone won't fly.
"Bethesda just wants to make an example of Notch"
Ummm no shit, that's the point of the whole thing, to get a clearer meaning, read Jim's explanation
Yeah it's pretty fucking public by now so not telling anyone won't fly.
"Bethesda just wants to make an example of Notch"
Ummm no shit, that's the point of the whole thing, to get a clearer meaning, read Jim's explanation
Remind me to never make a game called Elders. Or contain the world The. Bethesda may be FORCED to sue me if I do!
Speaking of which, I wonder if Tim Langdell works for Bethesda's legal department.
Speaking of which, I wonder if Tim Langdell works for Bethesda's legal department.
@Einlander
When you say easy money, do you mean that Bethesda has filed for damages? I haven't heard that, and I find it hard to believe.
This case is almost certainly about establishing legal precedence. That it happens to be against Mojang Games is likely coincidental.
When you say easy money, do you mean that Bethesda has filed for damages? I haven't heard that, and I find it hard to believe.
This case is almost certainly about establishing legal precedence. That it happens to be against Mojang Games is likely coincidental.
C'mon the game name is one word! ONE WORD! I can't believe that this is a copyright violation. Now words are copyrighted too ?
Uh no, they weren't. They could have settled this out of court through arbitrage. Bethesda wasn't "forced" to do anything.
I mean derp, If you have a trademark on a common name like "Scrolls" then yeah.
But who the hell let them do that? isn't the name "Elder" freaking scrolls not just scrolls?
Thats like copy righting "pancake" off of lugi's pancake and then filing against another game that uses the name but, its not in the title, for including pancakes in the game and labeling them pancakes.
But who the hell let them do that? isn't the name "Elder" freaking scrolls not just scrolls?
Thats like copy righting "pancake" off of lugi's pancake and then filing against another game that uses the name but, its not in the title, for including pancakes in the game and labeling them pancakes.
@Wrath
Just because the argument is public doesn't mean the negotiation has to be.
There are many instances where people settle their arguments out of court and the details of the settlement are never disclosed. So yes it is possible for them to have a deal and trademark the 'name and not tell anyone' the details of the terms of agreement.
Apple side it with patents, Monster does it with their Trademark name and so on.
And Zenimax/Bethesda still have time to make that happen.
Just because the argument is public doesn't mean the negotiation has to be.
There are many instances where people settle their arguments out of court and the details of the settlement are never disclosed. So yes it is possible for them to have a deal and trademark the 'name and not tell anyone' the details of the terms of agreement.
Apple side it with patents, Monster does it with their Trademark name and so on.
And Zenimax/Bethesda still have time to make that happen.
Its brand identity, not just a trademark. If there werent so many "DumbfuckingnameCraft"s out there already they would probably have been sued by Activision by now too.
Ive been playing TES games for years now, and TES is the only videogame I would associate with the name "Scrolls" until now. But even then I wouldnt mistake Scrolls for TES, and Im probably one of the few who even know wtf TES is.
Its a dumbass lawsuit, but they have to do it. Whatever the result, Ill continue to support both companies in the future.
Ive been playing TES games for years now, and TES is the only videogame I would associate with the name "Scrolls" until now. But even then I wouldnt mistake Scrolls for TES, and Im probably one of the few who even know wtf TES is.
Its a dumbass lawsuit, but they have to do it. Whatever the result, Ill continue to support both companies in the future.
Initially I'd peg the value of Skyrim game at maybe $50 or $60, and probably would have purchased it on day one. A new great game in a long series of great games. I'm really looking forward to seeing how they fix all my grievances with Oblivion.
The value of Skyrim when produced by a company that's a legal jackhole is significantly less - I now feel inclined to wait a few months for a much lower price.
The value of Skyrim when produced by a company that's a legal jackhole is significantly less - I now feel inclined to wait a few months for a much lower price.
Personally I don't think there would be much "brand confusion" between elder scrolls and scrolls. I don't talk about elder scrolls to people by saying, "Hey did you see all the types of fish they have in scrolls!" Reminds me of Tim Langdell suing everyone who dared use the word edge in their title because he owned a company years ago that used to produce video games, called Edge.
Its not quite the same cause Bethesda is using their trademark, though scrolls is only part of the title. Maybe they should rename scrolls to "Scrolls(By Mojang)" that'll sort this all out.
Its not quite the same cause Bethesda is using their trademark, though scrolls is only part of the title. Maybe they should rename scrolls to "Scrolls(By Mojang)" that'll sort this all out.
You guys have no understanding of copyright & trademark law. Please look up the history of the escalator, asprin. If a company does not protect their name they forfeit ownership of it. Say Bethesda was stupid enough to let Notch just use the name scrolls. Than one day Company X starts making a game called I don't know "Legend of the Scrolls" or "Mark of the Scrolls" I think most people would agree at the least that this could cause confusion in the market place. (Dumb)People might assume that it was an addition to the Oblivion franchise. Bethesda would rightly sue to stop use of the name, but Company X would point to Notch in the past using scrolls with out incident and maybe with Bethesda's approval.... Trademark lost....Bethesda loses and Legend of the Scrolls gets a 4/10 review.
Copyright or no copyright, I find suing over one word to be really, really silly. Imagine if Atari (I guess they're the ones who have copyrights to Primal Rage) sued id over Rage.
@Pokota
You're right I haven't read anything about them filing for damages.
But I doubt try are going to pay for the court fees.
If they do, I will have to find a nice leather shoe to eat for dinner...
You're right I haven't read anything about them filing for damages.
But I doubt try are going to pay for the court fees.
If they do, I will have to find a nice leather shoe to eat for dinner...
@beatola The difference between the two cases would be that in Notch's case few if any people would be confused and there is no problem, but in the second case "(Dumb)People might assume that it was an addition" and there is actually a problem, which is the case Bethesda is trying to argue. If there is confusion then they "have to" take it to court. They're gaining only negative press by being so trigger-happy.
I can't believe so many people jump to Bethesda's aid over one word. So what if I want to make a game called "The Older Scrolls". This is art, baby, not fucking McDonald's.
From October 3:
http://notch.tumblr.com/post/10990169550/a-short-response
A short response
I just saw this:
http://kotaku.com/5846111/mojang-v-bethesda-or-i-hate-it-when-mommy-and-daddy-fight
I feel the need to clarify a couple of things:
We realized we should apply for the trademark “Minecraft” to protect our brand. When doing so, we also sent in an application for “Scrolls”. When Bethesda contacted us, we offered both to change the name to “Scrolls: <some subtitle>” and to give up the trademark.
They refused on both counts.
Whatever reason they have for suing us, it’s not a fear of us having a trademark on the word “Scrolls”, as we’ve offered to give that up.
posted 4 days ago
http://notch.tumblr.com/post/10990169550/a-short-response
A short response
I just saw this:
http://kotaku.com/5846111/mojang-v-bethesda-or-i-hate-it-when-mommy-and-daddy-fight
I feel the need to clarify a couple of things:
We realized we should apply for the trademark “Minecraft” to protect our brand. When doing so, we also sent in an application for “Scrolls”. When Bethesda contacted us, we offered both to change the name to “Scrolls: <some subtitle>” and to give up the trademark.
They refused on both counts.
Whatever reason they have for suing us, it’s not a fear of us having a trademark on the word “Scrolls”, as we’ve offered to give that up.
posted 4 days ago
Apparently the trademark was for the use of Scrolls across a wide range of things even possible shows.
Makes me sympathise less with Notch's predicament.
Makes me sympathise less with Notch's predicament.
My upcoming game, The Alder Skrulls, will be heavily contested by Bethesda, Marvel and botanists everywhere.
Maybe Notch should see if he can get the rights to some really old "Scrolls" game, and use it for his game.
A quick GameFAQs search has both "The Wizard's Scrolls" and "The Scrolls of Abadon" listed as games that came out in 1984.
Bethesda wasn't forced to sue. Bethesda chose to sue, because they probably figured it was easier/cheaper for them (as their lawyers probably get paid regardless) than to negotiate a deal with Notch over the name.
And does anyone even refer to Bethesda's games as "The Elder Scrolls"? When I hear the name "Scrolls", I don't think of Bethesda. Heck, I have to think for a moment to connect "Elder Scrolls" to "Daggerfall, Morrowind, Arena, Oblivion, Skyrim,..." The games are known by their unique names, not "Elder Scrolls".
A quick GameFAQs search has both "The Wizard's Scrolls" and "The Scrolls of Abadon" listed as games that came out in 1984.
Bethesda wasn't forced to sue. Bethesda chose to sue, because they probably figured it was easier/cheaper for them (as their lawyers probably get paid regardless) than to negotiate a deal with Notch over the name.
And does anyone even refer to Bethesda's games as "The Elder Scrolls"? When I hear the name "Scrolls", I don't think of Bethesda. Heck, I have to think for a moment to connect "Elder Scrolls" to "Daggerfall, Morrowind, Arena, Oblivion, Skyrim,..." The games are known by their unique names, not "Elder Scrolls".
His game is called SCROLLS.
Their game is called THE ELDER SCROLLS.
Allow me to tun some hypothetical scenarios so egregiously stupid they actually seem plausible, now.
KOEI sues id Softwar because RAGE sounds too close to Fist of The North Star: Ken's Rage.
Sony sues Microsoft and Epic Games on account of having the first "of War" game.
Sega sues Sony & Naughty Dog for infringing on their title "Uncharted Waters".
EA & Criterion sue Activision & Treyarch for having a shooter with Black in the title.
This lawsuit is fucking stupid.
Their game is called THE ELDER SCROLLS.
Allow me to tun some hypothetical scenarios so egregiously stupid they actually seem plausible, now.
KOEI sues id Softwar because RAGE sounds too close to Fist of The North Star: Ken's Rage.
Sony sues Microsoft and Epic Games on account of having the first "of War" game.
Sega sues Sony & Naughty Dog for infringing on their title "Uncharted Waters".
EA & Criterion sue Activision & Treyarch for having a shooter with Black in the title.
This lawsuit is fucking stupid.
If companies continue to be allowed to trademark single words which then disallow that word's use in a phrase, we're going to run out of "legal" titles for video games.
We're looking at a future where developers will have to create new words or get sued so hard they can't afford to release their game.
IP laws need to be completely overhauled... And soon. They are beginning to impede progress on an astronomical scale and need to be changed for the good of mankind.
We're looking at a future where developers will have to create new words or get sued so hard they can't afford to release their game.
IP laws need to be completely overhauled... And soon. They are beginning to impede progress on an astronomical scale and need to be changed for the good of mankind.
Speaking of egregious behavior, check out all of those typos, yeesh. Bad form on my part.
In any case, this whole case is bloody ridiculous, I wish Notch nothing but the best in all this, and I hope this whole thing gets swept under the rug as fast as possible.
In any case, this whole case is bloody ridiculous, I wish Notch nothing but the best in all this, and I hope this whole thing gets swept under the rug as fast as possible.
So Notch offered to change it to "Scrolls: Something". Isn't that just the same problem?
Just name it Skrolls, Scrollz, Scroll (singular).
And yeah, as long as he doesn't make any money on the name before fully changing it then it would be thrown out of court.
Just name it Skrolls, Scrollz, Scroll (singular).
And yeah, as long as he doesn't make any money on the name before fully changing it then it would be thrown out of court.
Jim, you may not have seen this, or else you would likely have added it to the post..
http://notch.tumblr.com/post/10990169550/a-short-response
http://notch.tumblr.com/post/10990169550/a-short-response
@Captain Scrambles
Sony would have no business suing Microsoft and Epic, on a count of Infogrames releaseing a game called "Hogs of War", before God of War was even a thought.
Sony would have no business suing Microsoft and Epic, on a count of Infogrames releaseing a game called "Hogs of War", before God of War was even a thought.
Bethesda can sue all they like. They have no case. This is dumb. They are not forced to do anything. Yes, you have to protect your trademarks. This is NOT a case of that.
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