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BBFC responds to Destructoid editor regarding Manhunt 2 banning  photo

You've all heard about the outrageous banning of Manhunt 2 by the British Board of Film Classification, as announced yesterday. You should also all be aware by now that European members of the Destructoid community have had enough and will soon mount our official response very, very soon. The news has lit a fire underneath me, as it has my fellow British editor, David Houghton and between us, you can expect some brand new items regarding the fair and just treatment of videogames in the near future.

But to business. Yesterday, I emailed the BBFC, the group who tested and currently refuse to rate Rockstar's Manhunt 2, to share with them my impassioned thoughts on the issue. More or less restating the comments from my original news report, I did not hold back in my remonstration of the decision. The BBFC, through their Policy Chief Assistant J L Green, has sent me a reply, contained after the jump, in which they detail how they tested the videogame and where you can go if you wish to view the BBFC's extensive guidelines for yourself. 

More after the jump.

Firstly, this is the email I sent to the BBFC. As stated earlier, it was a reworked version of my post-jump thoughts on my original story concerning the banning. Included for completion's sake, you may wish to skip this email if you've read the first story:

My name's Jim Sterling, a videogame journalist who works for Destructoid.com and who had to report for his site earlier today that you'd decided to effectively ban Manhunt 2 in the UK. I find this news depressing beyond all reason. I didn't even like the first Manhunt, but for this game to be banned because a select group, a small part of the population won't let us decide what media we can and cannot handle is just a shocking example of how farcical this country has become.

Hardcore pornography is legal, movies show shocking and deplorable acts time and time again, but because this is a videogame, we in the United Kingdom have suddenly been told we're not allowed to experience it. This is the kind of sickening double standard that an industry that rakes in more money than Hollywood has to deal with and we, the consumers, are the ones who get punished. What will it take for this childish and reactionary prejudice against videogames to end?

To claim that this game is harmful is a statement of purest arrogance. I would optimistically hope that the BBFC actually played this game before banning it - are your testers harmed in any way, shape or form by what they saw, or believe they saw? Evidently not, if they are not in therapy currently and were mentally capable enough to ban the game, so what justification do you have to just assume that everyone else is too weak to handle playing it? That's an insult to adult gamers up and down the country and I choose to take that insult personally. I'm 23 years old and I don't live with mummy anymore, I should be able to make my own decisions about what videogames I can safely play.

It just fills me with an icy dread that this is merely the beginning. Once an action is taken and succeeds, it becomes consequentially easier for that action to happen again and again. I hope Rockstar fights this and I hope Rockstar wins, not just for its own game, but for every game that could potentially fall victim to the whims of the few.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a game to import.

On principal alone.

Thank you for your time and for any general, copy/paste reply I may recieve,

Jim Sterling

Editor, www.destructoid.com

Indignant and emotive, yes, but you guys know how I roll by now. Enough about me though, here's the main event, the BBFC's official, Dtoid-exclusive response on this issue:

Dear Jim Sterling

Thank you for your email and your interesting comments.

The BBFC has considerable experience in classifying games, and we employ
several highly knowledgeable and experienced gamers as examiners. Although
it was not possible to play the game in its entirety, a significant sample
of MANHUNT 2 was played and examined by a number of our examiners, both
gamers and non-gamers, before a classification decision was made. We also
have access to various cheats and 'God' modes, provided by the company, to
enhance greater access to all parts of the game. All our classification
decisions are made in line with our published guidelines. These guidelines
are available on our main website - http://www.bbfc.co.uk - under the
section entitled 'downloads'.

You will find it useful to read our press release regarding our decision on
MANHUNT 2. This is available on our main website - http://www.bbfc.co.uk -
under the section entitled 'news', and then 'press'. The release is dated
19 June 2007.

You also like to read our recent video game research published earlier this
year. This study is also available on our main website under the section
headed 'downloads'.

I can also assure you that this response is neither a 'general' one nor a
cut and paste job.

Yours sincerely,


J L Green
Chief Assistant (Policy)

I thank Mr. Green for his personal (and amusingly sarcastic) response to my email, but what do we think? Did he answer the questions this issue raises to a satisfactory level? Considering many of my points were not addressed in the least (I seriously want to know what damage was done to the BBFC's testers), I have to say that I'm not entirely satiated by what I have been told.

You can guarantee that more comprehensive answers on not just this issue, but many issues involving the unbiased and equal treatment of videogames will be actively sought out from this point forward. Stay tuned to Destructoid for upcoming news regarding just how these answers are being searched for.

Remember, this is not just about Manhunt 2, this is about videogames. 


Continue: More United Kingdom stories





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106 comments | showing # 51 to 100

Agent Nixon's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:02
Agent Nixon
@vgfreak
but destructoid IS a big hitter!
anyways, lets ring up petition online!
galagabug 's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:03
galagabug
@anyone overseas

if you're forced to go the import route, and you have an unmodded PAL console, can you even play NTSC titles?

if you mod your console and import, will NTSC discs display correctly on PAL tvs?

i know if you don't patch a PAL game and try to run it on an NTSC device, its unplayable (it loads but the image skips like crazy)
Jim Sterling's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:04
Jim Sterling
Online petitions are ineffective for the most part. While we'll probably do one just for the sake of it, GFG will be trying to tackle this issue is new, more effective ways.
Agent Nixon's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:08
Agent Nixon
@sterling
you mean raiding the BBFC's headquarters?

or are you talking more on the lines of an roadside IED?
Sharpless's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:10
Sharpless
BANARCHY IN THE UK

I called it. Give me credit for that.
BluDesign's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:11
BluDesign
PAL video formats are "bigger" (in pixel dimensions) than NTSC, and since europeans are smarter than europeans, they've got the image skip problem under control.

In short, GalagaBug, they usually have no problems with NTSC software.

Remember, America was founded by the crazy people the Church of England thought were too extreme to stay in the UK.
zardoz's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:12
zardoz
Jim, I'm sounding like a broken record here, but shove some indisputaable evidence of their ass. This is the only thing which will expose them.

Seriously, I know where this is going, his self righteous response to your email has set the tone, they are untouchable and they know it, they don't have to answer to anyone but themselves, BUT BUT BUT, they cannot ignore data and facts.

Gathered data, facts and evidence is the only way to approach this scenario, you will have science and reason on your side, evidence cannot be ignored or responded to with a self righteous retort.

Remeber that the good thing about this situation is that regardless of opinion, the truth is on our side, evidence shows that videogames have no affect on peoples behaviour or psychology, nor do gamers commit any vioent anti social acts. These facts alone render the BBFC's decision totally incorrect and unjustifiable. So just to repeat myself yet again, you have to take the scientific route and turn this into a debate about facts rather than opinions of people, because if this turns into a opinion debate (which is what the BBFC is already trying to do) they will win, because their opinions are untouchable.
BlueWolf72's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:13
BlueWolf72
Since we are on the topic of bans

Link to a website
galagabug 's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:26
galagabug
@dvddesign

thanks! that definately makes sense.
Churchhills Dog's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:28
Churchhills Dog
Its this idiotic posturing of "doing it for the children" that is turning the industry into a legal nightmare. Most of the people making these decisions are a.) adults who are either too old to have ever played a video game or b.) those that never became interested in the hobby. Their automatic assumptions are: videogame = child's pastime. There's no awareness of the fact that the vast majority of gamers are adults. Then theres the political benefit for them of giving the appearance of doing something good and just by "protecting" the little ones from some vague threat.

Here's an idea...FUCK 'EM!

Thats right, fuck the parents and the little cocksuckers. I have approximately 70-80 years of life on this planet and I'll be damned if I have to deny myself enjoyment because some little genetic disaster can't differentiate between a game, a cartoon, etc and reality. And thats even giving credit to the idea that it affects them at all. I'm in the US and can't help but weep for the UK. The citizens have had to put up now with camera surveillance in all aspects of their lives because a few politicos feel the need to "protect" it's citizens from potential "terror". Now they have douchebags like this who feel the need to protect the citizens from themselves. This organization and its principle should perhaps look around and understand that adults and parents have the innate ability to make decisions for themselves and their children. Its a radical concept, I know. It's one that the politicians over here are beginning to forget as well.
Touch's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:29
Touch
@Galagabug - nope, we can't play NTSC games on an unmodded PAL console, but the whole of Europe uses PAL, and it's a big place. The game has ben banned (so far) in the UK and Ireland. Germany will probably do so too, since I believe they didn't even have the first game, the same as Australia (not in Europe, but also a PAL territory). But that still leaves a lot of PAL countries who haven't banned the game. I fancy a trip to Amsterdam to...erm, go and buy Manhunt 2, anyone in?

Anyway, back to G4G. One thing it'd be useful to find out is if the BBFC is regulated by any other organisation - a key element here is getting your voice heard by the right people. It's definitely possible to orchestrate an effcective response if you can get enough people to spread the word, though; the whole Jade Goody debacle earlier in the year was started by a bunch of people on the Digital Spy website, I believe - unfortunately, in that case there was a an easily accessible body to who you could complain: OFCOM, the TV watchdog. In the case of the BBFC, it's a little more complicated, because they ARE the watchdog. It could mean that part of the strategy should be to do the good old-fashioned "write a letter to your MP" - if enough people did this, it could lead to a question being asked in Parliament, which would definitely get some exposure to the other side of the argument.

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for posting a turd through the BBFC's letterbox, but if we really want to make some noise about this, it would be good to attack it on a number of fronts.
atheistium's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:30
atheistium
I don't even think he answered any of your questions. He didn't touch on any of the moral judgement adults make that you stated in your email.
atheistium's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:32
atheistium
I think we should all try email the BBFC.
I think we need to really start acting out now. First Rule of Rose, nearly Bully and now this.. what's next?
bhive01's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:32
bhive01
I hate to say it Jim... I think it would have been better to present yourself in a slightly more professional manner.

I'm pretty sure that you got a form response with a sentence added at the end, that or this guy simply evaded every freaking question you asked. Also,why is MANHUNT 2 in all caps like that?
Trevor McGee's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:40
Trevor McGee
No game should be banned, none. If you don't like it, don't play it. If you don't want your children to play it, don't let them. If you do not like the content of said game, then condemn it with your words and leave it at that. But do not ever assume any of them should be banned. It's, as Jim said in so many words, a slippery slope in which would make it easier to ban other games in the future.

Even admitting that you think some games should be banned, gives them the power and justification to do it. Don't help ruin video games for the rest of us just because you can't stomach or tolerate the game in question, leave it to those who want it and enjoy it.

I am not a child anymore, I would rather not give anyone the power to tell me as an adult what I can and cannot play.
BlueWolf72's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:47
BlueWolf72
bhive01

At some point you need to force people to respond like a human. Dealing with these sorts you do get a automated reply.
ekoala2002's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:50
ekoala2002
What should be the next step in battling the BBFC?
deanhatescoffee's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:52
deanhatescoffee
"You also like to read our recent video game research published earlier this year."
That's so awesome! It's like they know everything about you! :|
Churchhills Dog's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 16:56
Churchhills Dog
I'm sure the "research" was carried out without single shred of consideration for an agenda, right?
SLiFE's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 17:00
SLiFE
Good luck importing the Wii version.
Nintendo will not allow the game to appear on the Wii with an AO rating.
Jim Sterling's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 17:03
Jim Sterling
Zardoz:

We've only just gotten started, mate.
DrkAdonis's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 17:03
DrkAdonis
Jim,

This is much bigger than just the UK. If they can get away with this, then surely we will see other countries jumping at the chance to follow suit. Not to mention 'he who must not be named.'

As an American brother who is disgusted at the BBFC for this... I'm sure I speak for us all when I say that we all fully support your stance. Good for you for writing that email, and let's not give up until they pull their heads out of their asses.
Gemsi's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 17:05
Gemsi
God dammit. this is really starting to get way outta hand.
ekoala2002's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 17:05
ekoala2002
I have only started to read the research...it so far seems like male gamers have a bigger problem than female gamers...LOL
Touch's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 17:18
Touch
SLiFE: the AO rating would only be applicable in North America - so ironically, there's still a chance this game could be seen on the Wii in Europe.
DrkAdonis's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 17:27
DrkAdonis
@Touch

I do not believe that is the case. If a game receives an AO rating via the ESRB in America, they refuse the carry the title on this systems. Period.
Mxyzptlk's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 17:31
Mxyzptlk
Keep fighting the Man. Can't stop the signal Mal.
BlueWolf72's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 17:37
BlueWolf72
and sony wont allow a ao either
Touch's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 17:40
Touch
@ DrkAdonis: if that's true, it sucks to high heaven. This thing just keeps getting worse. You don't think the game will get a release in Japan either?

Won't Rockstar be a little annoyed that their multimillion dollar investment just got pissed up the wall? I'm betting that they are going to kick the appeal process into overdrive as of tomorrow.
MechaMonkey's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 17:41
MechaMonkey
Devil's advocate, reporting in for flaming duty:

They have guidelines available to viewed by the general populace. The have reviewed this game in accordance with those guidelines and found it in violation. Of course, none of us had a problem with those guidelines until they actually made a decision to stop a game based on those guidelines. I see a lot of ranting and raving that should have happened ages ago when the guidelines were issued, if you have such a problem with them.

Also, have any of us seen this game in action? Can we safely say that the content of this game is suitable to be seen? No, we can't. They saw it, and we didn't. We have no idea what was in there, except that it was ultra-violent. Now, us apathetic gamers might not care about gratuitous violence due to our systematic desensitization to it, but might the average consumer be deeply disturbed by the content? Obviously, it's quite possible.

Lastly, you don't complain that Blockbuster won't carry porn, but when another retailer won't carry your game, you get absurdly indignant and send snide remarks to people, which won't get a single thing accomplished. If I want an open channel of discussion with them, I try not to insult them and their organization right off the bat. Save it for when things really get heated.

If you're going to make a sound argument, you need to understand the opposing viewpoint. I see very little of that, and a whole lot of conspiracy theorists ranting about Big Brother is trying to put a stop to gaming.

The rant endeth.
DrkAdonis's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 17:42
DrkAdonis
@Touch: Agreed. They almost have to be formulating some sort of response to this madness. This would be such a ridiculous hit to their bank account that it's not even amusing.

I just hope that when the dust settles and RockStar, and all gamers for that matter, come out on top... that they give DToid some love for fighting the good fight!
MechaMonkey's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 17:43
MechaMonkey
A final note: Jim Sterling, I am a huge fan of your writing. But letters to executives and bureaucrats don't work very well when they're written in the same tone as your D-toid articles. This is not the way to start a campaign. Now anything with your name attached to it will smell of angry sarcasm to those you're fighting against, and will be disregarded in kind.
BlueWolf72's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 17:57
BlueWolf72
MechaMonkey

who and what are you talking about. You cant compare blockbuster to porn to this. It is expected to never see porn at blockbuster...they have soft stuff but no one rents that.

It is expected to make a game and play it. Sell it and make money off the hard work your company has put into it.
SLiFE's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 18:07
SLiFE
I think it can be summed up that it's a sad day for free speech and liberal thought.
Knives's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 18:11
Knives
He didn't answer anything you asked. He pretty much just told you that manhunt got banned because they banned manhunt.

And BTW, you should read the guidelines and the research so you can bring out points from those if you can.
MechaMonkey's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 18:36
MechaMonkey
@ bluewolf: In his letter, Mr. Sterling contrasted the allowance of porn to the censorship in the game industry. Why are you calling out my use of it, and not his?
Jim Sterling's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 18:46
Jim Sterling
MechaMonkey:

If my plan was to continue personally dealing with those I'm fighting against, I'd certainly be worried. You can consider this email a warning shot, if anything. From now on, my focus is not on the BBFC, it's on something far more influential - the mainstream press.

Remember kidZ, stay tuned.
bhive01's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 18:48
bhive01
I agree with MechaMonkey. Sarcasm is great for Dtoid. Not so much for formal and semi-formal business writing. And, his comparison is valid. In the US we look at porn in the same way that violence is treated in the UK. We (US) have very little tolerance for pornography, and they (UK) have little tolerance for violence. At least that is my impression of the UK.

MechaMonkey's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 18:51
MechaMonkey
Fair enough, Mr. Sterling. As you were, then. :)
HappyMachete's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 20:11
HappyMachete
I'm shocked that he didn't reply with "Who the fuck is Jim Sterling?"
TheBrain's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 20:16
TheBrain
I like freedom of speech as much as the next guy, but some things are just unnecessarily offensive for the hell of it and are just asking to get banned. If Manhunt 2 was going to give an introspective look at the mind of a serial killer or something like that, then maybe we'd be better off if it stayed un-banned. No, though, it was just going to be mindless stupid killing like other Rockstar titles.

If you ask to get banned, it's probably going to happen. You think we'd be better off in internet forums without the higher ups banning certain individuals? How about online videogame playing without banning cheaters?

Sure the banning of media is a considerably different issue, but banning has always happened and will continue to happen. I'd fight for Manhunt if I thought it was worth fighting for, but as it stands, the game is just garbage spewed from someone's twisted mind. It isn't worth saving.

I understand what this decision might do to future videogames though. I also think it might make publishers think twice about making mindlessly violent games. It's sort of a win/lose situation.
TheBrain's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 20:22
TheBrain
note: my prediction that Manhunt 2 was going to be mindless violence is just conjecture based on the first Manhunt and Rockstar's track record and may or may not represent the final product that is Manhunt 2.
Aex's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 20:24
Aex
Wait... Jim Sterling is from the UK?
Crunshii's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 21:25
Crunshii
I thought jim was from the Bahamas...
cbre88x's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 21:43
cbre88x
Sometimes you have to be an ass to get a better response..way to go Jim.

It's time to fight the man.

http://www.videogamevoters.org/
Agent Nixon's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 22:04
Agent Nixon
well this story is on the front page of digg. :clears throat:
TheRob91's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/20/2007 23:32
TheRob91
This could be a sad day in gaming, my stomach is uneasy. I really didn't think games were treated THIS unequally.
erwin's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/21/2007 00:07
erwin
Rockstar games are fun to play though it features a bit of violent activities.


Ervin
http://www.spaml.com
scottoid's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/21/2007 00:36
scottoid
man..this isnt fair at all...movies run crazy and video games get shit on day in and day out...how can this be stopped!?
morbo47's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/21/2007 01:04
morbo47
@The Brain

That's all well and good, but I don't even have enough fingers to count all the crappy mindlessly violent movies all these big retail stores carry on their shelves. A lot of them are unrated now, and (at least in Canada) are freely available to anyone of any age to purchase at their discretion. Unrated, meaning they didn't even get reviewed by ANYONE, and they're sitting on shelves.

If this was a sex sim, fine, compare it to porn. But we're talking about violence, so it should be compared to other violence. While I might think the game is worthless, I think, nay, KNOW, others see worth in it. Even if it's the most horrible game ever constructed, people can still have fun with it. I can't count how many awesome night I've spent sitting around with my friends watching dreadful movies and hollering with laughter. "Jesus Christ, Vampire Slayer" anyone?? Zombie Lake? Dare I say it... Leeches?

Just look at all those campy slasher films of the 80s. They're now a major part of cinematic history, and were hugely influential on everything that came afterwards. Hell, Halloween and Scream are in my University textbook. Mindless, yes. But also fun. Blood and gore? Check. Can you still buy an unrated DVD of Hostel, Saw, or any number of others (Jeepers Creepers, Final Destination, 28 Days Later, Dawn of the Dead, The Hills Have Eyes, Texas Chainsaw, ect...) You betcha.

So no, it's not a matter of the perceived value of the game, but rather the principle of the matter, and the hypocrisy of it all.
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