You've all heard about the outrageous banning of
Manhunt 2 by the British Board of Film Classification, as
announced yesterday. You should also all be aware by now that European members of the Destructoid community have
had enough and will soon mount our
official response very, very soon. The news has lit a fire underneath me, as it has my fellow British editor,
David Houghton and between us, you can expect some brand new items regarding the fair and just treatment of videogames in the near future.
But to business. Yesterday, I emailed the BBFC, the group who tested and currently refuse to rate Rockstar's Manhunt 2, to share with them my impassioned thoughts on the issue. More or less restating the comments from my original news report, I did not hold back in my remonstration of the decision. The BBFC, through their Policy Chief Assistant J L Green, has sent me a reply, contained after the jump, in which they detail how they tested the videogame and where you can go if you wish to view the BBFC's extensive guidelines for yourself.
More after the jump.
Firstly, this is the email I sent to the BBFC. As stated earlier, it was a reworked version of my post-jump thoughts on my original story concerning the banning. Included for completion's sake, you may wish to skip this email if you've read the first story:
My name's Jim Sterling, a videogame journalist who works for Destructoid.com and who had to report for his site earlier today that you'd decided to effectively ban Manhunt 2 in the UK. I find this news depressing beyond all reason. I didn't even like the first Manhunt, but for this game to be banned because a select group, a small part of the population won't let us decide what media we can and cannot handle is just a shocking example of how farcical this country has become.
Hardcore pornography is legal, movies show shocking and deplorable acts time and time again, but because this is a videogame, we in the United Kingdom have suddenly been told we're not allowed to experience it. This is the kind of sickening double standard that an industry that rakes in more money than Hollywood has to deal with and we, the consumers, are the ones who get punished. What will it take for this childish and reactionary prejudice against videogames to end?
To claim that this game is harmful is a statement of purest arrogance. I would optimistically hope that the BBFC actually played this game before banning it - are your testers harmed in any way, shape or form by what they saw, or believe they saw? Evidently not, if they are not in therapy currently and were mentally capable enough to ban the game, so what justification do you have to just assume that everyone else is too weak to handle playing it? That's an insult to adult gamers up and down the country and I choose to take that insult personally. I'm 23 years old and I don't live with mummy anymore, I should be able to make my own decisions about what videogames I can safely play.
It just fills me with an icy dread that this is merely the beginning. Once an action is taken and succeeds, it becomes consequentially easier for that action to happen again and again. I hope Rockstar fights this and I hope Rockstar wins, not just for its own game, but for every game that could potentially fall victim to the whims of the few.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have a game to import.
On principal alone.
Thank you for your time and for any general, copy/paste reply I may recieve,
Jim Sterling
Editor, www.destructoid.com
Indignant and emotive, yes, but you guys know how I roll by now. Enough about me though, here's the main event, the BBFC's official, Dtoid-exclusive response on this issue:
Dear Jim Sterling
Thank you for your email and your interesting comments.
The BBFC has considerable experience in classifying games, and we employ
several highly knowledgeable and experienced gamers as examiners. Although
it was not possible to play the game in its entirety, a significant sample
of MANHUNT 2 was played and examined by a number of our examiners, both
gamers and non-gamers, before a classification decision was made. We also
have access to various cheats and 'God' modes, provided by the company, to
enhance greater access to all parts of the game. All our classification
decisions are made in line with our published guidelines. These guidelines
are available on our main website - http://www.bbfc.co.uk - under the
section entitled 'downloads'.
You will find it useful to read our press release regarding our decision on
MANHUNT 2. This is available on our main website - http://www.bbfc.co.uk -
under the section entitled 'news', and then 'press'. The release is dated
19 June 2007.
You also like to read our recent video game research published earlier this
year. This study is also available on our main website under the section
headed 'downloads'.
I can also assure you that this response is neither a 'general' one nor a
cut and paste job.
Yours sincerely,
J L Green
Chief Assistant (Policy)
I thank Mr. Green for his personal (and amusingly sarcastic) response to my email, but what do we think? Did he answer the questions this issue raises to a satisfactory level? Considering many of my points were not addressed in the least (I seriously want to know what damage was done to the BBFC's testers), I have to say that I'm not entirely satiated by what I have been told.
You can guarantee that more comprehensive answers on not just this issue, but many issues involving the unbiased and equal treatment of videogames will be actively sought out from this point forward. Stay tuned to Destructoid for upcoming news regarding just how these answers are being searched for.
Remember, this is not just about Manhunt 2, this is about videogames.
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Uh..no?
If the game allowed you to beat to death children, then use their dead bodies to beat other children to death, I would consider that ban-worthy.
If the game took actual predominant political figureheads and killed them in vicious horrible ways, and encouraged your doing so, that would probably be ban-worthy, to an extent.
But like you said, we should be given the right to decide for ourselves. What they should do is push an extensive campaign to completely educate parents that this game is not for their kids, at all. Not just outright ban it.
Keep fighting.
Agreed.
Unless the testers eyes melted or they needed severe psychiatric therapy, i see no reason to not allow this game to be sold on UK soil.
I love how he had no bones with the importing though.
Nice.
Also: "You also like to read our recent video game research published earlier this
year." - Generally grammar helps you get taken a lot more seriously. Obviously no one told Mr Green that.
Pedantic yes but i tend to get picky about grammar and spelling when it comes to being contacted by people of authority.
I would say it's a definite 'general' response. Replace MANHUNT 2 with any game name, and voila, general response.
Heh, great work. Kinda suprised by a answer at all from BBFC. (Bitchin 'Bout Fascinating Computergames)
Mabec:
I was tempted by "Bloody Bunch of Fucking Cunts" buuuuuut, I need to have my mature face on. :D
I didn't know you had a mature face Jim.
Lord Sterling is really getting his knickers in a bunch over this isn't he? Who would have known that the response would contain a small amount of snark in it. That was great.
it looks like you got a cut-and-paste reply, with a personal message at the end assuring you it was not cut and paste.
Good on him for getting back to you! IMHO no game should ever be completely banned from sale. If there is the demand there, people should be allowed it. It should be the decision of the retail outlet as to whther they want to sell the product and therefore be associated with it.
Unfortunately it either has to be all or nothing, and if the only other option is that a company can be told what it can or can not include in it's own work then I'm afraid I take the stand that there should be no censorship whatsoever!
We live in a day and age were we blame one thing for the other. This game is evil so lets do evil. Lets ban a game and return the ESRB does what they can with a AO. Whats next every game gets a AO if there is death?
Jim, i just want to say thank you, firstly for writing the email, but for wrting such a fuckig excellent one!
'now if you'll excuse me, I have a game to import.
On principal alone.'
thats beautiful, truley it is. but...
'I can also assure you that this response is
neither a 'general' one nor a cut and paste job.'
sarcasim or sincerity? I can't decied. least they did reply..
tazar I'd play the game! hopefully with some molestation thrown in
PS: Jim Hal Halpin Prez of ECA states: Ballsy. Good for him.
tazarthayoot what you have to understand is that censorship and banning regardless of the subject matter is a slippery slope...
While you may consider beating children to death with other children's corpses (IN A GAME) who is to tell you not to? Granted this is disgusting and very disturbing...
Granted these types of things should not be available to children and minors, but adults can make their own choices...unless we let things like this ban go without a fight.
what if it haD a gun that shooted childrens out of it at other childrens
The average age of a gamer is like what 25, thats the MAIN audience of this market.
Its the retarded parents that buy their little 10 yr old Tommy any game he wants for Christmas and then they get mad at the store/game company for letting her kid play the game....wtf, you bought it.
They should just enforce the age thing a little better and their should be no problems. Don't ban the game, that is just an all too easy out, for a simple issue.
This helps how?
The BFFA didn't provide any more insight as to why this is worse than the first than to say "It's worse than the first game" Ooo!
Also, where's the logic in banning a game anyway? With movies you're talking about a much less expensive proposition where someone can obtain viewing material that they might be deemed too young to see.
Movies are $10, DVD's are $20. If the ability to obtain this offensive material is what's under question there's also far fewer roadblocks to obtaining this material. Porn, liquor, and cigarettes are easier for a kid to come by than a violent video game. Why is that?
So if the game is good enough and worthy it will be one of the best torrent games to date. = the end
@Bahamut
I'd buy a game that had a ragdoll cannon in it as a weapon.
/cues Drowning Pool.
i'm sorry jim, i agree with you wholeheartedly, but this approach is too heavily laden with grandstanding for the destructoid faithful
Or perhaps every message has that assurance on. Either way, the whole situation is not just pathetic but very biased and unfair taking into account how many torture porn movies have been slipping through lately (think Takashi Miike and all his american rip-off merchants). I don't see how a film like hostel, with NOTHING going for it but a series of dull grisly killings leading towards a few more killings and eventually a train ride (whee!) can be considered any different from a game in which you progress through by killing digitised people. At least these killings look like third-rate last gen violence, compared to unflinchingly real scenes of torture exacted upon 'real' people, projected onto a massive screen for the whooping masses .
Fuck the hypcrisy of the thought police and their ill-judged actions and fuck this stupid, rotting little island I'm forced to live on.
Not that I would have played manhunt 2 mind, the first was dire :)
BlueWolf72:
This issue HAS no end until videogames are treated with the same respect and dignity as other artistic mediums.
As I say time and again, this is NOT just about Manhunt 2. This is about videogames. This is also something that which I am in for the very long haul.
That e-mail debocle got me all hot and bothered.
MOAAAARRR!!
Excellent email you sent, but we all knew that he wouldn't understand or even attempt to understand your point of view. I hope Rockstar doesn't back down and edit the game just to get an M rating or remove the UK ban. This type of issue needs to go down to bring about some kind of change to the foolishness. Both the BBFC and ESRB have ratings that would be fine for the game and still allow it to be on all store shelves, so why not abide by the very system they came up with? If the game remains Banned/AO, everyone should just buy it from their favorite website to get out a message to the retailers and the raters.
I e-mailed them too, and got basically the same one back as you did.
this just in- Destructoid has been banned in the UK by the BBFC.
Jim I agree with you but we are in a time and mind frame were that wont happen. Till we gamers decide to do a class action lawsuit vs THE PLANET EARTH you and I are going to see things like this.
Postal movie and game is about to hit the media realms I see the latest version of the postal game headed for the same dilemma
They are just worried that kids will play the game - which all probably agree is not a good thing. However, to CENSOR material from everyone to 'protect' it from a select few is a scary proposition. Some quote about throwing the baby out with the bathwater might apply here.
The problem here is that the system in place to keep "adult" games out of the hands of children is worthless. Fix that system and you need not ban games for simply being too "adult."
Oh yeah, fuck it, I live in violence happy America, as long as there's not a stray tit in a game we'll be fine.
Even if it wasn't a cut-and-paste reply, it definitely was "general," since he basically just stated his position again without responding to any of your concerns and referred to you to information you already knew. I hate corporate replies.
BBFC responds to Destructoid editor regarding Manhunt 2 banning:
"Who the **** is Jim Sterling?
Yours sincerely,
J L Green
Chief Assistant (Policy)"
BlueWolf72: I admit I'm idealistic, and that the ambition of games being treated fairly is a long, long way off from becoming true. However, all causes must start SOMEwhere, and if everyone keeps thinking "Well, there's no point because we can't make a difference," then nothing will ever get done.
Right now, our goal is a very achievable one - bring mainstream attention to the other side of the debate. Give us our voice, after having our words taken out of context or outright ignored for decades.
Nobody is yet talking about changing the world. But it's baby steps that make the big steps happen.
KarmaKing: The BBFC stated that they feel not just kids are at risk this time, but that adults are also not mature enough for Manhunt 2.
that last line of your post wasn't epic enough, i think at least BOLD is in order, maybe up the text size or get a photoshop done. the 300 craze concerning the this is sparta thing hasn't gone completely away.
i smell history in the making.
No game should ever be banned. Period.
G4G unite!
Here's the plan, Sterling.
Start negotiations with Rockstar to garner a bulk/cost deal for a shit-ton of copies.
Then Inform Richard Branson of the situation and try to convince him to buy 20,000 copies at a dicount.
Then distribute them to your Brittish bretheren. It would be the ultimate "FUCK YOU" to those twits.
"The BBFC has considerable experience in classifying games, and we employ
several highly knowledgeable and experienced gamers as examiners."
I wanna know what kind of gamers they employed here. Any real experienced gamer will be easily used to the kind of violence, even extreme violence that is in these games.
3..2... Jack T will be sending out a massive email on how he won
Jim Im glad you did this. ESRB needs a letter to. This game is not AO. The need to be in the news and show they are in charge as Target is using a different company to rate games.
@ JimSterling
but as an adult, surley i should be making that decision, not them?
Explaining their policies to us doesn't address the issue of their apparent unfairness. It looks like he's being purposefully vague because they can't come up with a response that won't make them look like the Babysitters' Club.
phoenix-blood:
Exactly.
Perhaps Manhunt 2 just needs Baby Skull Seeking bullets. Sure it sounds evil, but what if there was a gang that killed babies and wore their skulls as a necklace. Then those BSSB bullets would be great instead of deplorable... whats my point there is non I just like to look at the words I type...
Baby Skull Seeking Bullets? I have to give credit where credit is due... Whitest Kids You Know great sketch comedy where they talk to supposed NRA member asking him to defend these new bullets that just came onto the market.
Nice one dude, too bad they pretty much skimmed the email and acted snooty
All this dead children talk reminds me of a joke:
Whats the best way to load a truck with dead babies?
BBFC Gamer heads home from a long day at work, commenting on and cancelling stuff that never sees the light of day in the UK, like Chronotrigger, Super Paper Mario, etc.
BBFC Gamer: Ah, now to play Manhunt 2! I'll just put away my copy of Viva Pinata and my copy of Poniez! for the DS and just snuggle in here for a fun, fancy free night of gaming.
[10 minutes later]
Oh... That's why they banned it. Never mind. Jim, this one's lost to you buddy.
Id love to create a group "INPUT NAME" that bitch slaps groups and politicians and the BBFC and the ESRB when they make bad judgments.
A pitchfork.
* You can still join the army and kill real people.
;)
Kudos to Mr.Green for writing a 4 paragraph long letter that had addressed almost none of the points that you brought up, I couldn't be that much of an asshat if I tried. This letter might as well have been a 'general response' statement as Mr. Green puts it for all the lack of relevance it contains to your original piece. What a dick.
I say we get an online petition going, in full effect, not just on destructoid, but the big hitters like IGN, GAMESPY, etc. We need to help rockstar fight this.
@vgfreak
but destructoid IS a big hitter!
anyways, lets ring up petition online!
@anyone overseas
if you're forced to go the import route, and you have an unmodded PAL console, can you even play NTSC titles?
if you mod your console and import, will NTSC discs display correctly on PAL tvs?
i know if you don't patch a PAL game and try to run it on an NTSC device, its unplayable (it loads but the image skips like crazy)
Online petitions are ineffective for the most part. While we'll probably do one just for the sake of it, GFG will be trying to tackle this issue is new, more effective ways.
@sterling
you mean raiding the BBFC's headquarters?
or are you talking more on the lines of an roadside IED?
BANARCHY IN THE UK
I called it. Give me credit for that.
PAL video formats are "bigger" (in pixel dimensions) than NTSC, and since europeans are smarter than europeans, they've got the image skip problem under control.
In short, GalagaBug, they usually have no problems with NTSC software.
Remember, America was founded by the crazy people the Church of England thought were too extreme to stay in the UK.
Jim, I'm sounding like a broken record here, but shove some indisputaable evidence of their ass. This is the only thing which will expose them.
Seriously, I know where this is going, his self righteous response to your email has set the tone, they are untouchable and they know it, they don't have to answer to anyone but themselves, BUT BUT BUT, they cannot ignore data and facts.
Gathered data, facts and evidence is the only way to approach this scenario, you will have science and reason on your side, evidence cannot be ignored or responded to with a self righteous retort.
Remeber that the good thing about this situation is that regardless of opinion, the truth is on our side, evidence shows that videogames have no affect on peoples behaviour or psychology, nor do gamers commit any vioent anti social acts. These facts alone render the BBFC's decision totally incorrect and unjustifiable. So just to repeat myself yet again, you have to take the scientific route and turn this into a debate about facts rather than opinions of people, because if this turns into a opinion debate (which is what the BBFC is already trying to do) they will win, because their opinions are untouchable.
Since we are on the topic of bans
Link to a website
@dvddesign
thanks! that definately makes sense.
Its this idiotic posturing of "doing it for the children" that is turning the industry into a legal nightmare. Most of the people making these decisions are a.) adults who are either too old to have ever played a video game or b.) those that never became interested in the hobby. Their automatic assumptions are: videogame = child's pastime. There's no awareness of the fact that the vast majority of gamers are adults. Then theres the political benefit for them of giving the appearance of doing something good and just by "protecting" the little ones from some vague threat.
Here's an idea...FUCK 'EM!
Thats right, fuck the parents and the little cocksuckers. I have approximately 70-80 years of life on this planet and I'll be damned if I have to deny myself enjoyment because some little genetic disaster can't differentiate between a game, a cartoon, etc and reality. And thats even giving credit to the idea that it affects them at all. I'm in the US and can't help but weep for the UK. The citizens have had to put up now with camera surveillance in all aspects of their lives because a few politicos feel the need to "protect" it's citizens from potential "terror". Now they have douchebags like this who feel the need to protect the citizens from themselves. This organization and its principle should perhaps look around and understand that adults and parents have the innate ability to make decisions for themselves and their children. Its a radical concept, I know. It's one that the politicians over here are beginning to forget as well.
@Galagabug - nope, we can't play NTSC games on an unmodded PAL console, but the whole of Europe uses PAL, and it's a big place. The game has ben banned (so far) in the UK and Ireland. Germany will probably do so too, since I believe they didn't even have the first game, the same as Australia (not in Europe, but also a PAL territory). But that still leaves a lot of PAL countries who haven't banned the game. I fancy a trip to Amsterdam to...erm, go and buy Manhunt 2, anyone in?
Anyway, back to G4G. One thing it'd be useful to find out is if the BBFC is regulated by any other organisation - a key element here is getting your voice heard by the right people. It's definitely possible to orchestrate an effcective response if you can get enough people to spread the word, though; the whole Jade Goody debacle earlier in the year was started by a bunch of people on the Digital Spy website, I believe - unfortunately, in that case there was a an easily accessible body to who you could complain: OFCOM, the TV watchdog. In the case of the BBFC, it's a little more complicated, because they ARE the watchdog. It could mean that part of the strategy should be to do the good old-fashioned "write a letter to your MP" - if enough people did this, it could lead to a question being asked in Parliament, which would definitely get some exposure to the other side of the argument.
Don't get me wrong - I'm all for posting a turd through the BBFC's letterbox, but if we really want to make some noise about this, it would be good to attack it on a number of fronts.
I don't even think he answered any of your questions. He didn't touch on any of the moral judgement adults make that you stated in your email.
I think we should all try email the BBFC.
I think we need to really start acting out now. First Rule of Rose, nearly Bully and now this.. what's next?
I hate to say it Jim... I think it would have been better to present yourself in a slightly more professional manner.
I'm pretty sure that you got a form response with a sentence added at the end, that or this guy simply evaded every freaking question you asked. Also,why is MANHUNT 2 in all caps like that?
No game should be banned, none. If you don't like it, don't play it. If you don't want your children to play it, don't let them. If you do not like the content of said game, then condemn it with your words and leave it at that. But do not ever assume any of them should be banned. It's, as Jim said in so many words, a slippery slope in which would make it easier to ban other games in the future.
Even admitting that you think some games should be banned, gives them the power and justification to do it. Don't help ruin video games for the rest of us just because you can't stomach or tolerate the game in question, leave it to those who want it and enjoy it.
I am not a child anymore, I would rather not give anyone the power to tell me as an adult what I can and cannot play.
bhive01
At some point you need to force people to respond like a human. Dealing with these sorts you do get a automated reply.
What should be the next step in battling the BBFC?
"You also like to read our recent video game research published earlier this year."
That's so awesome! It's like they know everything about you! :|
I'm sure the "research" was carried out without single shred of consideration for an agenda, right?
Good luck importing the Wii version.
Nintendo will not allow the game to appear on the Wii with an AO rating.
Zardoz:
We've only just gotten started, mate.