*reads article*
Please stop trolling just for the controversy
You don't hate innovation, you're just a purveyor of quality; a perfectionist. That's not a bad thing, because who should have to pay good, hard earned money on games that suck?
A fiver says most of the comments skip over all that.
As far as reviewing critics, I can't think of a more pointless activity. I try to think of critics in the most basic sense; as other gamers. Their opinions are no more valid or important than any other gamer. Taking time to rip them to shreds is completely unnecessary, and petty. If you don't like what they have to say, just ignore them. Write them off. Somebody you probably didn't know existed yesterday, and won't give a shit about tomorrow.
Pretty compelling argument except for the part where you're wrong; Cave Story has exceptionally good gameplay mechanics.
Nice try though.
But regardless of the reaction, this was a really well written and enlightening article. Keep up the good work, Jim.
I hope we can get this worked out between everyone soon. I, just like all of you, love great games. Can't we all just get along?
Who is saying they are?
Yeah, you can point to examples of games that aren't "innovative" or games that try to be innovative but you think fall on their face and say "Oh look they're stupid." But no one on the post you just made claimed they weren't. All you quoted was "I'll take a 'pretentious artsy-fartsy indie game' over creatively bankrupt bullshit any day," and said, "McGarvey's comment was but one of many that shared similar sentiments." Then you took it in whatever random direction you wanted.
You didn't quote anyone actually saying that they disagreed with your thesis statement, so why are you arguing it.
I'll just say it, I personally don't like Modern Warfare 2, in fact I hate it, but there is a REASON it sold the millions of copies it did. Can you attest it to marketing, PR, controversy, and just all around limelight that it got? sure. But even when the hardcore game nerds like us are hating some pretentious indie game,you just have to look past the mentality.
Because otherwise from the headline alone you're misleading that art games are never innovative and innovation is never good, which would betray the sentiments of your article.
Other than that, I agree with your article, but doubt you've silenced the haters.
*insert Slowclap.gif here*
I know its the popular thing to say 'Its indie, so its GODLIKE' but fuck all that noise. Its the videogame industry equivalent of those art house hippies who think they're better/smarter than everyone because they've read a book, seen a film or listen to a band that no one else has even heard of.
I'm not going to name names but DToid isn't completely innocent of this.
Portal couldn't have been what it was without the clunky Narbacular Drop first.
I really wanna read a response article by Rev on the subject. And was Mirror's Edge really that bad? I enjoyed it a lot.
I agree with the majority of what you have to say (having not played the void) but I have to disagree with you again about passage. In that instance, (a free and 5 minute long game) I think that the otherwise annoying vague mechanics (which are explained by the end of the first playthrough) are a necessity. You not realizing that your life is quickly wasting away is a great reflection on life and specifically youth. You kinda end up realizing whats been squandered only after the time has passed. That's cool, and it's cool because of the type of presentation that may be pointlessly convoluted in other 'art' games.
Anyway, aside from that, yeah I feel ya completely.
You're the reason I joined dtoid back in '06, and the reason I come back everyday.
the Void isnt just hard. if i just re-started the game for the 3rd time, knew EXACTLY what needed to be done and even knew EXACTLY how to do it but because my mouse button fails on me twice in a row while drawing glyphs i play through the same 2 hours of gameplay to realize i CANT make it any further and must start the game over yet again..?
thats bad programming. its lack of solid game mechanics LIMITS its own narrative. while i may be interested in the game and want to find out what happens, if i physically CANT because of its slip-shoddy design- its not a good game.
halo on the other hand wasnt terribly original but it played well enough for you to get the scope of the story from beginning to end while at least enjoying yourself during the process. yeah so it was recycled-sci-fi-cliche 101, at least i can say i had fun playing it.
The original quote, the one that inspired your rant, merely implied that the dude prefers interesting games that try to be different over games that don't bring anything new to the table.
Its not that all indie/art games are innately better, or that they're not creatively bankrupt, its just that most people prefer variety in the things they enjoy. 95% of mainstream games are based on tried and true formulas.
EXAMPLE (which is totally unnecessary): I had to listen to so much classic rock radio one summer that I would gladly listen to anything else, no matter how crappy, because it was new and different. I dont consider classic rock bad, I just got sick of it, just like some people get sick of mainstream films and mainstream games.
So, uh, who actually disagrees with you?
Now I'm not saying that people who find abstract art are dumb. Far from it. They actually sit there and think about it all on some other level. It's just different strokes. Some people like to think hard about what happened and pull some deeper meaning from all of it. I look at them and find nothing but frustration and pretentiousness.
Just that when I'm playing a video game, I expect my reflexes and problem solving skills to be tested rather than my deeper thinking skills. Guess I'm trying to say that no one is wrong for fucks sake. People like different stuff. I've just come to my own conclusion that artsy is not a way I like to think. People will be a lot happier when they come to terms with what they like and leave other people's opinion of shit out of their thoughts and ESPECIALLY their decisions.
Because of that, some started to believe that mutations are good things, and that something with a mutation it's good. But that's bullshit, 99,99% of all mutations that happen are actually uselss or prejudicial.
I actually don't thinked that something as "art games are not innovative and innovation is not good. Not on their own.", had to be explained...
Jim was right when he wrote the first article and now he's just demonstrating it...
http://insomnia.ac/reviews/pc/doukutsumonogatari/ > you
@ Diverse
art games go hand in hand with indy, look at stuff like world of goo, cave story has a certain arty element to it that peopel are drawn to
I know, what's the point of giving a half-opinion when people will listen more to a bold statement. But I think my title is closer to the opinion you express, and closer to the truth.
As in the examples you've given, yes, plenty of games and other media are rightly percieved as high-quality by the critical community despite being thoroughly non-innovative. Not hard to point to an example of a recent film for that.
I think the number one reason a gamer speaks out is because they want to tell other people how great their favorite game is. And their favorite is not often going to be selected from among hundreds of also-rans. Statistically, it's more likely to have been a high seller. It's more likely to be a younger fan's opinion than an old-timer's, because the industry is much larger now than it was. Finally, I think people identify with the game that introduced them to a particular style of game - for them, the innovator - more than the next 5 sequels, me-too knockoffs, or rereleases.
Access your inner console fanboy, and you might find that your favorite game also has an illogical system preference attached to it, too, not based on the quality of graphics, interface, load times, etc on later versions for other consoles.
So to bring it back to art games. Yes, they can be dogmatic too. But most people don't know that, and don't care. The limited release means that for most people, their first art game seems totally new to them, whatever form it may take, whether it's Passage, or You have to burn the Rope, or FlOw, or whatever. With an innovative product in hand, a new experience for them, usual expectations fly out the window. It's the same with big budget games. Somewhere out there, is a newish gamer who's never heard of Tetris, but thinks Lumines is the best puzzle game ever and so innovative compared to all these normal games.
Critics by their nature consume way more media, know more of the history and the game models that non-innovative games rely on, and it's harder to access their basic 'kid playing something incredible they've never seen before' mode. Art games, even the by the numbers ones, are more likely to do that for a long-term gamer.

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