This is BAD NEWS, we need to cure gay people.

meh. I don't agree with it but they should be able to have it up there; such is the price of free speech. And yes, in an increasingly corporately run world, companies such as Apple should have a responsibility to respect free speech. I'd rather have the occasional offensive app up there than have my mouth gradually duct-taped.

@ Sanious:

The last time I checked, spreading misinformation--so long as it doesn't cause extreme physical/emotional harm, and is not motivated by very obvious malicious intent--is not a crime.

Let's be honest now: there's TONS of misinformation and stereotyping about Sarah Palin being a brainless, gun-toting, air-headed, useless hick woman. You could very well make the argument that the "liberal" media and democrats are holding her back by spreading information. They're prejudiced against her. But she doesn't demand that all media about her on the internet, TV, and in print get taken down because 1) what they're saying (so far) hasn't broken any laws, and 2) people in America (generally) have the right to say what they want, without fear of legal repercussions or censorship. We as a people (generally) like being able to say what we want.

So in your case, you want the app taken down. That's fine, I can respect that. But if you have no impersonal, legal basis to remove the app, then your reasons are inevitably personal. And anything in the realm of personal simply becomes a matter of opinion.

And so long as Exodus' (admittedly tasteless) product isn't breaking any laws, it is merely a product derived from THEIR opinion. It basically comes down to you thinking you're right and them thinking they're right. How come everyone should side with you? Why shouldn't everyone side with Exodus? Because Exodus is obviously wrong? Based on what? Because what they think is bad? Who decides what's bad?

. . .so what I'm trying to say (rather unsuccessfully I think) is that if there's no legal reasoning behind your belief that Exodus remove its product, then you demanding their products' removal amounts to a desire for censorship of a group's personal ideas/beliefs. Which is wrong for so many (I hope) obvious reasons.

. . .to be honest Sanious, if it came down to my own personal opinion, I'd probably want the app removed, same as you--it's in bad taste, and it only promotes bigotry rather than understanding.

But if there's one thing I hold above my own opinion, it's the ability and freedom to express that opinion. And I'd never want to relinquish that privilege--nor would I want it relinquished by anyone else. It's something every man above 18 deserves.

Oh, and women too I guess.

I love how many people don't actually understand the concept of "free speech" in the United States.

(Hint: This story is not an example.)

"that have somehow concluded homosexuality is a lifestyle choice" Or maybe some people think for more than 2 seconds and come up with the exact same logical choice. I have a question, I'm not against homosexuals or anything, but IT IS A LIFESTYLE CHOICE. Either that or you have to accept then that sexual preference is inherit in everyone, so what about those pedophiles? They were born that way, isn't it like picking on a person with a mental illness? Either accept the fact that homosexuality is a choice or accept the fact that all sexualities are inherit thus meaning society is still borked when it comes to treating people appropriately. People who can't stop for a second and think for themselves annoy me, people who just throw their towel in with the winning side annoy me more.

@wintersault

If apple was forced to sell the product in the name of free speech it would go against the concept of a free market. A privately owned store (such as the Apple Appstore) should be allowed to choose what they sell and don't sell. Apple has the right decide if they want to continue selling the product or cave into the pressure. As long as the government doesn't intervene in this issue than both the free market and freedom of speech is still protected.

@UncleOgre: First of all, it's 'allowed', not 'aloud', dipshit.

Secondly, if you think free speech is dying then you must have been living under a rock with your eyes closed, your ears covered, and screaming "La-la-la-la-la!", because you are a fucking moron.

@maelstromzero

I was going to post what you pretty much said. You are 100% correct.

I'm not arguing over whether or not the app was stupid (personally, no matter what you think about homosexuality, making an app to change someone is stupid either way). The point is, as maelstromzero says, these people are as close-minded as the people they accuse of being closed-minded. They're just close-minded about their set of beliefs instead.

The bottom line is that we all have our own set of beliefs. Just because I don't think the same way you do, doesn't mean that I'm some ignorant prick and you're this liberal, unprejudice, lover-of-all-people. We all have a different set of beliefs and should, on some level, respect each other's beliefs. If you're berating someone because they believe something you don't, you might want to look in the mirror at your own hipocrisy; you may not be as innocent as you think you are.

Oh wow, so many anonymous accounts with only one or two comments in their history. Or is this standard protocol in threads for Jim Sterling articles?

@ Pacopaco

Yes, it probably is standard protocol for Sterling articles. I mean, are you kidding? The stuff Sterling posts is usually blatantly incendiary, horribly contentious, or just plain ridiculous. It brings all sorts of people out of the woodworks. XD

yaaaaaaay

My problem is that this is coming from a group of people who are trying to hold another down. This App was just has ill intentions written all over it and I would argue that this App could cause emotional harm considering you cannot change your sexual orientation. There are younger people out there that do not understand their sexuality that could come across something like this and it could fuck them up emotionally when they think it can happen and seek 'help' from these people.

It's not a matter of censorship, it's not a matter on whether they have the legal right to say this or not. It's the matter that they are wrong and it could harm people. I know from my own experience that you cannot change who you are and at an age where you're confused that something like this could harm someone mentally if these people were given the chance to do so.

I honestly do not give a rats ass what people think of me or homosexuality, but it's a problem because these people involved with the app are probably individuals who are also trying to vote away my rights and other gay citizens. So giving them less outlets to spread ignorance and bigotry about a group of people they refuse to understand is only a good thing to me.

So I don't see it as censorship, considering they could put this up on their own site or anyplace they privately own. They can do that if they want, but when it comes to other companies such as Apple I will fully support them on not putting up with any kind of App or whatever that is filled with bigotry and ignorance towards any group of people.

I do not condone violence towards gays, or intolerance towards anyone. Gay people don't choose to be gay, but homophobes don't choose to be intolerant. We all have different feelings that we have no control over. We would all be better off focusing on the connections we have between each other, not the differences.

My other comment apparently didn't post, maybe because of a certain language i used to prove my point. I had said that people cry freedom of speech at stuff like this, but if the app had instructions on how to get rid of [black people] or any other group, it would never be legally sold. Its sad that society believes it more ok to say negative things about gays than any other group.

I had also said how upsetting it was with all the religious hate in the last post. 99% of muslims are good people, 1% blow up buildings. 99% of christians are good people, 1% make apps to cure the world of gays. but its unfortunate that the 99% never make the news; its the 1% that gets all the attention.

Here we go again, looks like were gonna have to jump!

I really wish Apple would stop censoring apps in any way, and add an 18+ age rating. The only thing they should keep off the store is malware. I say this as a gay iOS/Mac user and developer.

Allowing apps from sources other then their own store would be nice too, but I'd be content with just the above.

"What's the harm" in an app like this?

Gay kids are already twice as likely to commit suicide, u wanna make em feel worse about themselves?

@Squidoris

People learn to be intolerant. Its something that can be taught and untaught.

You can't cure choice Apple.

@maelstromZERO

"So in your case, you want the app taken down. That's fine, I can respect that. But if you have no impersonal, legal basis to remove the app, then your reasons are inevitably personal. And anything in the realm of personal simply becomes a matter of opinion. "

BUT DUDE THERE IS AN IMPERSONAL, LEGAL BASIS TO REMOVE THE APP:

“Applications may be rejected if they contain content or materials of any kind (text, graphics, images, photographs, sounds, etc.) that in Apple’s reasonable judgment may be found objectionable, for example, materials that may be considered obscene, pornographic, or defamatory"

If hundreds of thousands of people find this content objectionable or even defamatory to homosexuals I think removing it from the app store is more than fair. If there were an app to cure Christianity (as if it was a mental disease) and millions of people signed a petition to get it removed because they're Christian and they know that their faith is NOT a mental disease whose side would you be on?

Rules is rules. Free Speech does not apply here. They can peddle their App from their website, they can put it on Android, they can do whatever they want. They just can't sell it on Apple's App Store.

I'm actually disappointed by this news and act of censorship. Do I agree with the app's message? No. But I defend the right of free speech they had in having it up. Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean it's a good thing it goes away (if that was the case, we'd all be happy if Jim Sterling dropped off the earth every now and then.) Nobody was putting a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to download the app, and I wonder if opinion would have been different if a pro-gay app that claimed to "make you gay" came out if half the people upset would then show the same level of intolerance. Even if you don't believe homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, religious and outdated moral lifestyles certainly are, and isn't it just as much an infringement on their rights to censor one side of the argument and neglect the other? I LOVE how diverse the games industry in particular is becoming, and I'd like it become as widely divergent as books, music, and movies. There are conservative and liberal stories, films, and albums. There are pro and anti-gay books, movies, and music, their are pro and anti-religion novels, cartoons, and songs. If a pro-gay or anti-gay video game came out, I would welcome both because, even if I didn't agree with their message, having that variety, that melting pot of opinions, beliefs, morals, doctrines, and ideologies makes the medium a far more rich and diverse medium. But that includes taking the bad with the good. You cannot have diversity without conflicting opinions.

Once again - NO FREE SPEECH IS BEING DENIED HERE. People keep bringing it up, it's funny how people bring it up in the wrong instances. When it comes to someone else's services that THEY OWN, they can do what they want with it. These people can have their words on plenty of other mediums and it wouldn't be a problem.

So please understand what Free Speech actually is before you begin to talk about it or use it in a debate. Nobody's free speech was taken away here.

And this is not an opinion, these people legitimately believe that you can cure Homosexuality when you cannot. Conflicting opinions are fine when they have actual merit to them, this however does not.

And the opinion with a 'Pro-Gay' App wouldn't have a problem because it's a positive one. This 'curing' homosexuality suggests that there is something wrong it that it needs to be cured, that it's a disease. It has ill intention and is meant to derogatory towards a group of people, that is why Apple doesn't want it on their store.

Also, again these are the same people that won't let gays get married or have countless other rights, they'll be able to sleep at night when all 'we' are doing is taken one fucking App away.

@ jawshoeuh:

What you quoted doesn't really matter. According to Apple, if an app is objectionable, then the application will be rejected. Therefore, if the application was not rejected, then the app was not objectionable.

The application for Exodus' app was NOT rejected--it passed, and was being sold on the App Store. So basically, Apple found nothing objectionable about the app. Read the Apple ToS you quoted--it only applies to an App's application and approval process. Not to apps that had already been approved.

What got that app removed wasn't Apple. It was the 152,433 people (out of 3-6 million US iPhone users, btw) who thought it was okay to throw a hissy fit and use the power of the mob to exert their will and censor/silence something that had every right to be there--assuming it wasn't breaking any of Apple's ToS.

That's what bothers me.

I think... Exodus says it's not a lifestyle choice, it's something forced upon you? And they try to change homosexuals into heterosexuals. That's the basics I've found out from listening to the Savage Lovecast on Brad Nicholson's recommendation.

And the people who are anti-gay are usually closeted homosexuals. "He was just lifting my luggage".

@maelstrom

It is objectionable and apparently there is something either wrong with how Apps get put on the service or someone is not doing the job correctly. Because last time I checked Apple claims to be a pro-gay Company.

People are not throwing a 'hissy fit'. People are calling out Apple (for the second time) letting an anti-gay App go up on their store when they claim they're pr-gay. Also once again, there is no censorship or 'silencing' when these people have plenty of other mediums to do this on.

My problem is that people are ignoring that actual problem. Not censorship or freedom of speech, but ignorance and bigotry. But hey, they should be allowed to put this stuff anywhere just for the sake of Freedom of Speech.

@ Sanious

It is a form of censorship/silencing when Apple takes down the app based purely on a vocal minority, when no clear law has been transgressed. Sure, Apple can do whatever it wants since it owns the app store, but it doesn't change the fact that a vocal minority bludgeoned their way to hijack Apple's decision making process and eventually forced them to remove the app--because they didn't like the views behind the said app.

I think point at issue between us, Sanious, is that you're looking at this from a moral perspective while I'm looking at this from a legal perspective. Morally, you think the app is wrong, and should therefore be removed.

Legally, what Apple did was probably fine, but the entire issue skirts dangerously close to corporate censorship guided by an almost powerless vocal minority. It makes me very uncomfortable, because you start to realize that Americans--and people in general--much prefer popular ideology rather than an environment that gives every idea/perspective equal weight: whoever's the loudest, wins.

You should look into Snyder vs. Phelps--not sure if you've heard of it, but it's a Supreme Court case where the Westboro Church (infamous for their anti-gay picketing and otherwise bigotry influenced slogans) protested at the funeral of a soldier killed in Iraq. Westboro believes such garbage like God is killing US soldiers in Iraq because the US has let homosexuality become rampant.

Obviously, the father got royally pissed off when he learned that these nuts were protesting at his son's funeral. He brought legal action to bear against Westboro, but when the case got brought up to the Supreme Court, the justices ruled in favor of Westboro. One of the more poignant quotes from the whole thing was:

“Westboro’s funeral picketing is certainly hurtful and its contribution to public discourse may be negligible,” the majority concluded. “Speech is powerful. It can stir people to action, move them to tears of both joy and sorrow, and — as it did here — inflict great pain. On the facts before us, we cannot react to that pain by punishing the speaker. As a nation we have chosen a different course — to protect even hurtful speech on public issues to ensure that we do not stifle public debate.”

Obviously, this Apple case is quite a bit different. But the concept of (partially) silencing a particular opinion, regardless of how heinous that opinion is, just doesn't sit right with me.

And Sanious, I think everyone is pretty much aware of what the real problem is. You'd be pretty hard pressed to find anyone--at least in our digital circles here, in our general demographic--that would think Exodus' product was morally acceptable. The only people who would agree with Exodus are older conservatives, religious nutjobs, and country hicks. They'll all be dead of old age in a generation anyways, so it's not like their opinion will matter for long.

No, what bothers me is that our younger demographic that will end up running the future may be very well versed promoting equality, but have no qualms about quashing dissenting opinion through manipulation of public sentiment.

That scares me.

I have talked 'legally'. We've already established that Apple can do what they want with their service because they own it. Like I said they claim to be a gay friendly company so it's odd that this App got through in the first place. So I'm pretty much done with the 'legal' part because there is no point, they do have a right to do what they want. You don't have to agree with that, but it is what it is.

I think it's kind of ridiculous that you'd use an organization such as the Westboro Church as part of your debate. I don't consider what they say opinions. Having signs such as 'God Hates Fags' etc is not an opinion, it's Hate Speech to me. An opinion is saying that you don't approve of Homosexuals, going around with those types of signs to dead soldiers funerals is not an 'opinion', it's what I consider Hate Speech and I don't think they should be allowed to do that. But they are unfortunately. Just like these people are allowed to claim they can cure Homosexuality can be cured, so the legal thing doesn't need to be discussed.

I'm focusing on the morality part of it because I don't think enough people consider that. People jump to the 'freedom of speech' argument before they consider what the person is saying or doing can be harmful, and I think in this situation claiming that you can cure homosexuality can and will cause harm. Because it's straight out lie and it's from people who are just ignorant and bigots.

We pretty much disagree with each other. And we're just going to go back and forth, so I'll just agree to disagree. It was a good discussion.

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