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Wow man, way to make yourselfs look like a bunch of pricks. TW2 is a decent game, or at least i thought it was, theres no need to pull this shit. Take pride in your work, and who gives a fuck if someone reviews it low, reviews are opinions, not gods holy gospel.
Jim lays the smack down. Nice article. If this is true, it's pretty shocking. They could put all that effort into actually making the game good instead...
Well, as I read this, I played Super Sonic Racing. It melded in soooo well.
Already, back to serial time. With the time I exposed myself to Two Worlds II, I thought it was an excellent rental. But hearing that Topware was bribing the reviews, this shit makes me disgusted that I even somewhat supported Topware. To even fucking bribe Dtoid too is just low as well.
I'm was planning to buy Two Worlds II when it hits bargain bins, but fuck that. Topware deserves none of my money.
Already, back to serial time. With the time I exposed myself to Two Worlds II, I thought it was an excellent rental. But hearing that Topware was bribing the reviews, this shit makes me disgusted that I even somewhat supported Topware. To even fucking bribe Dtoid too is just low as well.
I'm was planning to buy Two Worlds II when it hits bargain bins, but fuck that. Topware deserves none of my money.
This is the point where Destructoid becomes the Deadspin of gaming sites. Which is actually pretty awesome. I had planned on waiting for a significant price drop for TW2 before I purchased it, so I'm glad I took the 'wait and see' stance, but honestly, I can't imagine how many publishers have acted this way in regards to games that I own. I'm sure most of us are none-the-wiser hypocrites. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
They've screwed themselves over now. I wouldn't be surprised if a wave of bad Amazon reviews swept Two Worlds 2.
This is a really fantastic piece. I hope that we'll see more of this kind of investigative journalism(GASP) on Destructoid in the future.
This is a really fantastic piece. I hope that we'll see more of this kind of investigative journalism(GASP) on Destructoid in the future.
This is what happens when reviewers have low standards and refuse to rate mainstream games lower than 7/10.
Look at the reviews for something like Halo: Reach or Modern Warfare 2, for instance, for proof of this.
Both reviewers and Topware are fucking stupid.
Look at the reviews for something like Halo: Reach or Modern Warfare 2, for instance, for proof of this.
Both reviewers and Topware are fucking stupid.
Topware is at fault, one way or the other. If they have been going around putting in the effort to get their game better coverage via shady practices rather then putting in the same amount of effort into the game itself, then they're dipshits.
If the reviewers are a-lying, and it's possible, but I don't see why, then it's sad.
Either way, it shamefully reflects on the gaming industry.
If the reviewers are a-lying, and it's possible, but I don't see why, then it's sad.
Either way, it shamefully reflects on the gaming industry.
Wow, and I was considering giving this a whirl too, even after playing the first one for 10 minutes and shutting it off in disgust, all based on Jim's earlier review.
No chance of them getting my money now.
No chance of them getting my money now.
A very interesting synopsis Jim. We can only hope that these shenanigans are sorted out soon before any actual legal action is taken. I think that this game actually got favorable coverage, which is really all you need in order to sell games these days. I've seen as many positive reviews as negative, so it really has to be up to the consumer.
Anyhow, back to Topware. Whilst I'm not prepared to be running out and screaming frauds, I think we all have a collective "hmmm" going on as we rub our chins in suspicion. It's always a shame when you have to collectively condemn a company you know is at least trying, so let's just cross our fingers that this isn't as freaking serious as it sounds.
Anyhow, back to Topware. Whilst I'm not prepared to be running out and screaming frauds, I think we all have a collective "hmmm" going on as we rub our chins in suspicion. It's always a shame when you have to collectively condemn a company you know is at least trying, so let's just cross our fingers that this isn't as freaking serious as it sounds.
Wow, this is journalism. Jim has sources? I was under the impression that he only had biases...
Haha, but seriously; excellent write-up.
Haha, but seriously; excellent write-up.
@Astalano
Black Ops was reviewed here as a 6.5
FF13 got a 4.5 I believe, as well as ACII.
Your argument is stupid. You're like one of those students in high school who says CoD sucks and doesn't understand why anyone likes it. OH DURP STOP GIVING MAINSTREAM GAYMEZ HIGH SCOREZ DURR. Maybe some devs (Gearbox, Ubi Montreal, Insomniac, Bungie, Naughty Dog, Zipper are examples) really take their times onthe development process of the games, shell out quite a few dollars on marketing, and let it set their course. Maybe Reviewers actually take time to analyze the look and gameplay of the game and shell out their opinion on the game, instead of joining the bandwagon. Ever thought of that?
Get out.
Black Ops was reviewed here as a 6.5
FF13 got a 4.5 I believe, as well as ACII.
Your argument is stupid. You're like one of those students in high school who says CoD sucks and doesn't understand why anyone likes it. OH DURP STOP GIVING MAINSTREAM GAYMEZ HIGH SCOREZ DURR. Maybe some devs (Gearbox, Ubi Montreal, Insomniac, Bungie, Naughty Dog, Zipper are examples) really take their times onthe development process of the games, shell out quite a few dollars on marketing, and let it set their course. Maybe Reviewers actually take time to analyze the look and gameplay of the game and shell out their opinion on the game, instead of joining the bandwagon. Ever thought of that?
Get out.
You know...I bought this game, but never got around to pulling the trigger and actually opening it. After reading this, I think I'm going to return it today.
Woah. I expected a tiny article and got something that took half my bus journey to read. Awesome.
This whole practice of buying high scores is getting completely out of hand, and I find it pretty funny that IGN of all places takes the high ground when some of their review scores are hugely questionable (big example being Fallout 3, presentation gets a 9 while they slate the animation and texturing as being bad).
Similarly, I remember that story about someone at some lad's mag being in shit because they revealed that R* were trying to influence a preview. And to this day I remain confused as to why many places list it as the greatest game of all time - I find that extraordinarily hard to believe given the backlash from a lot of people from it removing a lot of what GTA was known for.
Hell, one of the reasons I typically like Dtoid reviews is that I can read them and not have to care about that tiny number at the bottom since you guys don't make a big deal of it.
One thing I like in this article you seem to have written the article speaking of Destructoid as a thirdparty. Gives it more vadility in a way. Though all in all it was a nice read.
This whole practice of buying high scores is getting completely out of hand, and I find it pretty funny that IGN of all places takes the high ground when some of their review scores are hugely questionable (big example being Fallout 3, presentation gets a 9 while they slate the animation and texturing as being bad).
Similarly, I remember that story about someone at some lad's mag being in shit because they revealed that R* were trying to influence a preview. And to this day I remain confused as to why many places list it as the greatest game of all time - I find that extraordinarily hard to believe given the backlash from a lot of people from it removing a lot of what GTA was known for.
Hell, one of the reasons I typically like Dtoid reviews is that I can read them and not have to care about that tiny number at the bottom since you guys don't make a big deal of it.
One thing I like in this article you seem to have written the article speaking of Destructoid as a thirdparty. Gives it more vadility in a way. Though all in all it was a nice read.
wait a sec.. I thought IGN was at the forefront of every conspiracy out there. How can you say they are innocent?
@thefaulk. This type of stuff isn't exclusive to the vg industry. It goes on all the time in other industries.
@Epic-KxDtoid
Yeah, because the story and the gameplay of Modern Warfare 2 is soooo deserving of a 10/10 or a 9/10, 10/10 being the status of the BEST GAMES EVER.
Also, FF13 was overall negatively reviewed (yet still won a game of the year award in some category or at least was nominated), but has an 83 average. What for?
Here's a summary of a 6/10 (above average review):
"The fact that Final Fantasy designers are so willing to experiment is a good thing, because it'll keep the genre from dying off. But Final Fantasy XIII should be considered a failed experiment."
Apparently failed experiments are above average?
Or how about:
"Considering the initial expectations, Final Fantasy XIII is definitely a disappointment. Although the adventure looks absolutely stunning (especially on PS3), the gameplay lacks in terms of depth in a way that no one could have expected, and if we add to the equation the extreme linearity of most of the adventure, the whole experience is far from perfect. Anyway, we can't blame Square Enix too much: this is where mass market is leading us."
This is a 7/10 (good/great game review).
I also refuse to believe that Modern Warfare 2 can receive no review below 7/10. It's not a 10/10 game and this bullshit you're spewing about good design and reviewers carefully analyzing games stems from ignorance of the highest order.
I am no professional reviewer, but at least I can see that the review system is a giant piece of shit. You have only to look at the backlash from Jim's AC2 review to see why.
Plus, the only reason Black Ops got a 6.5 or whatever is because the online was unplayable. Jim said it would rank as an excellent game if it didn't have these issues (9/10).
What for? The story is moronic to say the least, the gameplay lacks any sort of innovation or freshness and the online could have been made by modders with enough time.
You get out.
Yeah, because the story and the gameplay of Modern Warfare 2 is soooo deserving of a 10/10 or a 9/10, 10/10 being the status of the BEST GAMES EVER.
Also, FF13 was overall negatively reviewed (yet still won a game of the year award in some category or at least was nominated), but has an 83 average. What for?
Here's a summary of a 6/10 (above average review):
"The fact that Final Fantasy designers are so willing to experiment is a good thing, because it'll keep the genre from dying off. But Final Fantasy XIII should be considered a failed experiment."
Apparently failed experiments are above average?
Or how about:
"Considering the initial expectations, Final Fantasy XIII is definitely a disappointment. Although the adventure looks absolutely stunning (especially on PS3), the gameplay lacks in terms of depth in a way that no one could have expected, and if we add to the equation the extreme linearity of most of the adventure, the whole experience is far from perfect. Anyway, we can't blame Square Enix too much: this is where mass market is leading us."
This is a 7/10 (good/great game review).
I also refuse to believe that Modern Warfare 2 can receive no review below 7/10. It's not a 10/10 game and this bullshit you're spewing about good design and reviewers carefully analyzing games stems from ignorance of the highest order.
I am no professional reviewer, but at least I can see that the review system is a giant piece of shit. You have only to look at the backlash from Jim's AC2 review to see why.
Plus, the only reason Black Ops got a 6.5 or whatever is because the online was unplayable. Jim said it would rank as an excellent game if it didn't have these issues (9/10).
What for? The story is moronic to say the least, the gameplay lacks any sort of innovation or freshness and the online could have been made by modders with enough time.
You get out.
Definitely an extensive, well researched piece from what I can tell. Very nice read.
I have to say that it truly blows my mind that someone like Topware can even attempt things like this with blogs, and not immediately get blacklisted. They're literally one of the smallest, most irrelevant game companies of all time.
Also, that 8 for Two Worlds 2 always seemed ridiculous, and I said so in the review. I always felt that they were getting some ridiculous scores for the quality of games they put out. So they blatantly asked you for an 8.5? When was this info going to come out? I have to say, the whole Destructoid element of this story could use a little more explaining, perhaps. Definitely interesting to hear about though.
Pretty sad story about Topware though. I just can't believe that anyone even took their threats seriously and didn't immediately blacklist them. It's like if a company had only made Dark Void and Iron Man 2, and they threatened to blacklist you.
I have to say that it truly blows my mind that someone like Topware can even attempt things like this with blogs, and not immediately get blacklisted. They're literally one of the smallest, most irrelevant game companies of all time.
Also, that 8 for Two Worlds 2 always seemed ridiculous, and I said so in the review. I always felt that they were getting some ridiculous scores for the quality of games they put out. So they blatantly asked you for an 8.5? When was this info going to come out? I have to say, the whole Destructoid element of this story could use a little more explaining, perhaps. Definitely interesting to hear about though.
Pretty sad story about Topware though. I just can't believe that anyone even took their threats seriously and didn't immediately blacklist them. It's like if a company had only made Dark Void and Iron Man 2, and they threatened to blacklist you.
Shinta:
I was probably not clear there, I added a little extra. I personally hadn't heard about any plans for a bribe until Friday night. I'm yet to talk to a Dtoid staff member who knew about a bribe. As far as I can tell, Topware talked of making an offer, and one PR guy didn't make it because they knew we'd say no. I'd have blown the whistle straight away if someone tried to barter for a review score, so any publisher trying that would be stupid.
It's possible the plan was to hold the money back and hope we'd give the game a high score just to keep a good relationship and get our money, rather than a direct, tit-for-tat bribe. Of course, it could also be true that everybody we spoke to, aside from James Seaman, is a liar.
I was probably not clear there, I added a little extra. I personally hadn't heard about any plans for a bribe until Friday night. I'm yet to talk to a Dtoid staff member who knew about a bribe. As far as I can tell, Topware talked of making an offer, and one PR guy didn't make it because they knew we'd say no. I'd have blown the whistle straight away if someone tried to barter for a review score, so any publisher trying that would be stupid.
It's possible the plan was to hold the money back and hope we'd give the game a high score just to keep a good relationship and get our money, rather than a direct, tit-for-tat bribe. Of course, it could also be true that everybody we spoke to, aside from James Seaman, is a liar.
Damn, Topware should hit me up. I love the game and have been praising it all over the interwebz since it came out in the US. They could have thrown a little PR money my way and I would have gone the extra distance and bashed all the reviews that gave it a bad score. Hell, I'll even travel around the world and rough people up for them if the price is right.
In all seriousness though, I know I'm old and cynical but I always figured that these kinds of practices were common place in the video game industry these days. Companies in every other industry that are trying to make money (like companies tend to do) often resort to unsavory and shady tactics. And by "often", I mean "always".
Either way, this is an excellent article through and through. If they have any kind of games journalism awards, this piece should be in the running. (If you need me to bully some folks into making this happen feel free to hit me up.)
In all seriousness though, I know I'm old and cynical but I always figured that these kinds of practices were common place in the video game industry these days. Companies in every other industry that are trying to make money (like companies tend to do) often resort to unsavory and shady tactics. And by "often", I mean "always".
Either way, this is an excellent article through and through. If they have any kind of games journalism awards, this piece should be in the running. (If you need me to bully some folks into making this happen feel free to hit me up.)
@inzyster
Yup, me too. The guys that are just there making video games with no involvement in any of this PR bullshit are the ones suffering here. The game they worked on is being overshadowed by all this negative attention, and if this goes much further and Topware ends up with a bad reputation, it could even harm their careers in the long term.
I really hope, if these allegations are ture, that we're able to separate the guilty and innocent parties at Topware.
Yup, me too. The guys that are just there making video games with no involvement in any of this PR bullshit are the ones suffering here. The game they worked on is being overshadowed by all this negative attention, and if this goes much further and Topware ends up with a bad reputation, it could even harm their careers in the long term.
I really hope, if these allegations are ture, that we're able to separate the guilty and innocent parties at Topware.
If Topware made decent games, they would have just lost a customer.
That's a big if though.
I'm currently playing TW2, checked it out from my store, and so far it's just average. Yeah, better than the first, but still pretty uninspired and buggy. Definitely not worth a 60 dollar purchase, I'd struggle to recommend it at the 45-50 used price. And with all this crap now, I sure as hell won't be buying a Topware game new in my lifetime.
That's a big if though.
I'm currently playing TW2, checked it out from my store, and so far it's just average. Yeah, better than the first, but still pretty uninspired and buggy. Definitely not worth a 60 dollar purchase, I'd struggle to recommend it at the 45-50 used price. And with all this crap now, I sure as hell won't be buying a Topware game new in my lifetime.
The sad truth is that retail still drives practices like GameStats manipulation and pressuring reviewers. Most of the buyers for the major retailers are not gamers and know very little about the category outside of the top tier titles like CoD or licensed games. The buyer may only serve in that category role for the retailer for a few months and there is little reason for them to become more engaged. They'll use historical sales data, GameStats figures and a publisher walkthrough to decide their orders. This leads to mid tier titles living or dying by these website analytics like GameStats and Gamermetrics.
I for one welcome our digital download overlords.
I for one welcome our digital download overlords.
I am not a Topware Employee, but I must say the videogame Two Worlds II(PS3, Xbox360, Mac, Pc, Onlive AVAIBLE TODAY) sure does look like an 10 to me, a non Topwear(look I misspelled it so I can't work there) so you should buy it because a fellow non employee has said good things.
@Super Drybones: Yeah, and while you're at it, you should pick up a pair of air jordans. There are some great deals linked in the comments on IGN (AVAILABLE TODAY).
@Jim Sterling
There seems to be a consensus among the commenters that there's a seedy underbelly of the gaming media and this Topware business is just one example that happened to get attention for doing what everyone else manages to get away with. I'm inclined to believe that as well.
Are we wrong? How much of this is normal, and how much isn't? Any plans to possibly write up an article on some of the behind-the-scenes workings of the industry that most of us might not know about? Or is there maybe some sort of Magician's Code that prevents certain things from being discussed in public? I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist or anything but there does seem to be some things going on behind the scenes on a day-to-day basis, and some of it might even make this Topware business look tame by comparison.
There seems to be a consensus among the commenters that there's a seedy underbelly of the gaming media and this Topware business is just one example that happened to get attention for doing what everyone else manages to get away with. I'm inclined to believe that as well.
Are we wrong? How much of this is normal, and how much isn't? Any plans to possibly write up an article on some of the behind-the-scenes workings of the industry that most of us might not know about? Or is there maybe some sort of Magician's Code that prevents certain things from being discussed in public? I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist or anything but there does seem to be some things going on behind the scenes on a day-to-day basis, and some of it might even make this Topware business look tame by comparison.
Jim
Was the game truly an 8? I don't want to see you get pulled into the controversy and you know people are going to start questioning your review. That's why things like this suck. On the flipside though, this would never have come out if not for the honesty of some "game reviewers". I think you guys realize how important your reputations are for your profession. This was a great read and explains what you were doing yesterday besides amazing poetry.
Was the game truly an 8? I don't want to see you get pulled into the controversy and you know people are going to start questioning your review. That's why things like this suck. On the flipside though, this would never have come out if not for the honesty of some "game reviewers". I think you guys realize how important your reputations are for your profession. This was a great read and explains what you were doing yesterday besides amazing poetry.
Tristrix:
Stuff like this upsets me because it shakes my firm belief that the industry is NOT as sleazy as some people like to think it is. I've always said that the games industry isn't as cloak-and-dagger as conspiracy theorists think, so when shit like this comes out, it never fails to be a concern.
Speaking purely from my own experience, the industry is not that bad. Most publishers are cool, they'll take a bad review on the chin, and try to impress you next time. Activision, Ubisoft, and Electronic Arts have, on the most part, been cool with me despite my slating of some of their games. Yes, a few individuals within those companies might bitch about me -- one EA executive begged a colleague not to let me review Dead Space 2 as he believed I would trash it for fun -- but the companies overall still deal with me.
Ironically, it's not the big companies that will give a site shit, generally, but the little guys. The guys who you would expect to be more honest and honorable. The worst experience I've ever had with someone over a review was the Hydrophobia review. Activision never gave me shit about Black Ops. Square Enix has never blacklisted me for Final Fantasy XIII. Sony still likes me regardless of what I gave LBP2. But these indie devs take it personally, and they're the guys who start shit more often than not.
So yeah, that's my take.
Stuff like this upsets me because it shakes my firm belief that the industry is NOT as sleazy as some people like to think it is. I've always said that the games industry isn't as cloak-and-dagger as conspiracy theorists think, so when shit like this comes out, it never fails to be a concern.
Speaking purely from my own experience, the industry is not that bad. Most publishers are cool, they'll take a bad review on the chin, and try to impress you next time. Activision, Ubisoft, and Electronic Arts have, on the most part, been cool with me despite my slating of some of their games. Yes, a few individuals within those companies might bitch about me -- one EA executive begged a colleague not to let me review Dead Space 2 as he believed I would trash it for fun -- but the companies overall still deal with me.
Ironically, it's not the big companies that will give a site shit, generally, but the little guys. The guys who you would expect to be more honest and honorable. The worst experience I've ever had with someone over a review was the Hydrophobia review. Activision never gave me shit about Black Ops. Square Enix has never blacklisted me for Final Fantasy XIII. Sony still likes me regardless of what I gave LBP2. But these indie devs take it personally, and they're the guys who start shit more often than not.
So yeah, that's my take.
"Was the game truly an 8? I don't want to see you get pulled into the controversy and you know people are going to start questioning your review."
I stand by my review. I think it's a great game in which the overall experience totally outweighs the individual flaws.
I stand by my review. I think it's a great game in which the overall experience totally outweighs the individual flaws.
Very informative, thanks for the article, Jim! And I thought you said you weren't a real journalist?
Destructoid itself was planned to be approached with a bribe. Topware paid for a Two Worlds II site skin, but withheld half the pay. The other half was allegedly planned to be paid in exchange for an 8.5 review from us.
D-Toid's review score: 8.0.
It's like you were trolling them...
D-Toid's review score: 8.0.
It's like you were trolling them...
Well, good on ya for actually attempting to report this as a real story. It's a damn sight better than most gaming "journalism."
I say again: who cares about Topware? They make no games that anyone likes. Let them blacklist away. No one will notice.
I say again: who cares about Topware? They make no games that anyone likes. Let them blacklist away. No one will notice.
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