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I think a better way to put it would be that the best games have good writing. Which is probably true. I can't think of anyway a game could be worse with better writing.
I think his examples were completed apt. You're looking at story in games in a completely different way than he is. And there are stories in every single Adventure Time episode. I have no idea what show you're watching.
A cell shaded monster hunter with wacky gameplay, adventure time characters, plus a funny story? Damn, i'll take twelve.
There is no contradiction if you assume that he wants to make a game that plays like Katamari Damacy and Monster Hunter combined with a good story.
I agree with Pendalton Ward. I like a game that has a story behind it. One of the reasons I've never like Mario titles is that there is nothing to make me care. I also don't understand why, when someone says "I want to have a good story", some people automatically believe that good gameplay will be cut. In my opinion, the best games have both.
I don't really understand the Totoro analogy, either. Totoro absolutely had a story, and it was instrumental in instilling a sense of wonder into this secret world that adults can't see. Without a story, it would simply have been a bunch of owl-bears laying around sleeping. The story was the process of discovering something special hidden in the world around us.
I agree with Pendalton Ward. I like a game that has a story behind it. One of the reasons I've never like Mario titles is that there is nothing to make me care. I also don't understand why, when someone says "I want to have a good story", some people automatically believe that good gameplay will be cut. In my opinion, the best games have both.
I don't really understand the Totoro analogy, either. Totoro absolutely had a story, and it was instrumental in instilling a sense of wonder into this secret world that adults can't see. Without a story, it would simply have been a bunch of owl-bears laying around sleeping. The story was the process of discovering something special hidden in the world around us.
Adventure Time does have a general storyline.
[Spolier-ish?] So, Ooo was created by the after affects of the 'Great Mushroom Wars' (Nuclear Holocaust). Finn, along with the underground colonies (Susan Strong) and Billy are some of the only humans left. Everything in Ooo are after effects (prolonged radiation sickness) of the Mushroom Wars, saying that the explosions 'made a ripple in the space time continum, releasing magic and enhancing any dormant magic left on the earth.' That ripple also made doorways to other Dimensions, such as the Lumpy Space dimension, the place where Magic Man is from, and the Underworld.
....that was really more like an origin story, wasn't it?
[End spolier-ish]
[Spolier-ish?] So, Ooo was created by the after affects of the 'Great Mushroom Wars' (Nuclear Holocaust). Finn, along with the underground colonies (Susan Strong) and Billy are some of the only humans left. Everything in Ooo are after effects (prolonged radiation sickness) of the Mushroom Wars, saying that the explosions 'made a ripple in the space time continum, releasing magic and enhancing any dormant magic left on the earth.' That ripple also made doorways to other Dimensions, such as the Lumpy Space dimension, the place where Magic Man is from, and the Underworld.
....that was really more like an origin story, wasn't it?
[End spolier-ish]
Story =\= storyTELLING, which I think is what you're getting at, and what I hope Ward is talking about. It's not the story you tell, but how you tell it.
Story is something that is really hard to quantify.
A good story in a game is like polish.
A game doesn't necessarily need an epic sonnet driving it, sometimes it just needs a bit of glue & string to hold it neatly together. Sorta like Shadow of the Colossus, there really wasn't much to the story but it really managed to drive the game.
A game without any sort of story or plot is just disjointed, it can still be a good game but it has to really shine.
However a great story/plot will always make a good game better.
A good story in a game is like polish.
A game doesn't necessarily need an epic sonnet driving it, sometimes it just needs a bit of glue & string to hold it neatly together. Sorta like Shadow of the Colossus, there really wasn't much to the story but it really managed to drive the game.
A game without any sort of story or plot is just disjointed, it can still be a good game but it has to really shine.
However a great story/plot will always make a good game better.
Good article, John! My favourite game in the world is Super Mario Galaxy 2; did that have a story? FUCK NO.
*checks author to see if Jim Sterling is trolling*
*nope.jpg*
Um...guess you must he a CoD fan?
Since the inception of video games, story has been a driving force in games. Story has spawned whole genres (metroidvania, RPGs, etc). Hell, one of the most legendary FPS's of all time was entirely story-based. (Half Life 2 of course)
And if you think that Adventure Time has no story, you're sadly mistaken.
Any time something is established, it's brought into the story. Characters are introduced, and some of them make reoccurring appearances.
Get that multiplayer-only bullshit out of here. We have enough MMO's, and I'd rather have a game stand on it's own merits than rely on a "make your own adventure" game.
TLDR: I'm looking forward to whatever Pendleton Ward makes.
*nope.jpg*
Um...guess you must he a CoD fan?
Since the inception of video games, story has been a driving force in games. Story has spawned whole genres (metroidvania, RPGs, etc). Hell, one of the most legendary FPS's of all time was entirely story-based. (Half Life 2 of course)
And if you think that Adventure Time has no story, you're sadly mistaken.
Any time something is established, it's brought into the story. Characters are introduced, and some of them make reoccurring appearances.
Get that multiplayer-only bullshit out of here. We have enough MMO's, and I'd rather have a game stand on it's own merits than rely on a "make your own adventure" game.
TLDR: I'm looking forward to whatever Pendleton Ward makes.
A lot of my favorite games have little to no story in them: Demon's Souls, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Lost in Shadow, etc.
I don't think you could do a AT game atleast with what the show has been, like its not too heavy in combat so it would have to be addapted with a conflict that isn't "yo that horse is lookin at us" or "this snail needs to find a lady snail to sex up." Doing that would add the pieces that make it a game with like rpgish things but would take away from the stand alone episode that it is.
Also I think it would look terrible in 3D cell shading rendering simply will not cut it
Also I think it would look terrible in 3D cell shading rendering simply will not cut it
I know the answer to this dilemma.
The answer is Werewolf Queen! It's always Werewolf Queen!
And when I finally meet the Werewolf Queen, she will take me on as her royal consort and we will rule in blood!
The answer is Werewolf Queen! It's always Werewolf Queen!
And when I finally meet the Werewolf Queen, she will take me on as her royal consort and we will rule in blood!
while some games don't need a story to be enjoyable, there is no reason to not want to achieve good game play and incorporate a great story to go with it. You might have over simplified some of those examples to, Totoro had way more going on then that. Other then that I get were your coming from but until he release's a game we won't know for sure if his idea will work out.
i like his thinking, everytime i play a game i see the story/storytelling/setting first, and then gameplays and other things.
I think you're over reacting Holmes. Without specific examples of what he thinks are games with good stories you can't really judge. Maybe his examples are the same as yours. Maybe by good story he meant good characterisation.
And if you're right? So what? Good story does not preclude good gameplay. I think you're in the minority of hardcore gamers when it comes to a dislike of story anyhow.
And if you're right? So what? Good story does not preclude good gameplay. I think you're in the minority of hardcore gamers when it comes to a dislike of story anyhow.
uhhh... wat.
Pretty much everything you mentioned has a pretty huge emphasis on "story", whether or not you think it does. Not sure if that word conjures up unskippable cutscenes in your mind or tons of dialogue or quest boxes full of text or if you got a papercut while turning the page of a dictionary with the word on it, but jeez.
Pretty much everything you mentioned has a pretty huge emphasis on "story", whether or not you think it does. Not sure if that word conjures up unskippable cutscenes in your mind or tons of dialogue or quest boxes full of text or if you got a papercut while turning the page of a dictionary with the word on it, but jeez.
I laughed at xenodyne calling of all the people in the world- Jonathan Holmes, a CoD fan :P That's gotta be a first Jon!
Catherine. Mother 3. Portal 2. Dead Space 2.
Some of the best games of all time have great stories.
It Came from the Nightosphere. Mortal Folly/Recoil. Too Young.
Some of the best Adventure Time episodes have great stories.
Some of the best games of all time have great stories.
It Came from the Nightosphere. Mortal Folly/Recoil. Too Young.
Some of the best Adventure Time episodes have great stories.
@Xenodyne You are a funny man.
@Holmes I agree for the most part that games do not require a story to be fun, but they can tell great stories.
@Holmes I agree for the most part that games do not require a story to be fun, but they can tell great stories.
I think there's a lot of wires and definitions getting crossed here on what is story and storytelling. For example i would say SOTC could be called a strongly written story even though all of it is subtle and only ever inferred to the player without needing the player to understand or think about it. The world has been created with a history and story which is then only very partially witnessed by the player, yet this is still storytelling isn't it?
Most of the games and films mentioned still have stories that are more coherent than abstract, some are simply more subtle or place less import on it..
Most of the games and films mentioned still have stories that are more coherent than abstract, some are simply more subtle or place less import on it..
I don't think you really need to choose between a good story all those other things. Take the Metal Gear Solid games. To me, they have a very compelling story (your mileage may vary), but they also have and great game mechanics and interesting characters.
I don't think Pendleton would allow a bad Adventure time game to happen.
At least I hope not...
I don't think Pendleton would allow a bad Adventure time game to happen.
At least I hope not...
I don't want an Adventure Time game with an epic story. Just something to give me context for Monster Hunter Katamari gameplay, kthxbai.
HOLY BALLS A GUY SAID A THING WHICH OUT OF CONTEXT COULD BE CONSTRUED AS PART OF A DESIGN PHILOSOPHY THAT MAY INFLUENCE THE OVERALL DIRECTION OF A HYPOTHETICAL GAME
Yeah. I don't a think an Adventure Time video game should have story at the fore-front of it's design. Like Mr. Holmes said, if I wanted to be semi-interacting with an Adventure Time story, I'd talk to my t.v. while watching the show. If there was to be a video game based on the show, I'd rather have the focus of the design go else where, like exploration or level design or something...
So you cant have both? I can understand where you come from, but it seems rather narrow and kind of reactionary that the this guy does subscribe to your distilled vision of gaming.
I would think it would be more a case of being wary of someone outside the games industry being interested in making a video when they have no real business doing it. I think skill sets from other industries can overlap (television to literature to film etc. etc.) but rarely do they ever do well in video gaming other than in voice/motion capture realm.
I would think it would be more a case of being wary of someone outside the games industry being interested in making a video when they have no real business doing it. I think skill sets from other industries can overlap (television to literature to film etc. etc.) but rarely do they ever do well in video gaming other than in voice/motion capture realm.
If he wants to make a game like Monster Hunter, then for the love of god, don't make it all about grinding items. In fact, don't make it at all like an MMO. I don't know how much of Monster Hunter that condition leaves, but even so...
He should make an Adventure Time game like the Way of the Samurai series: plenty of fighting, optional grinding/collecting, and short individual playthroughs with a strong emphasis on repeated playthroughs to build up your guy and find new stuff.
He should make an Adventure Time game like the Way of the Samurai series: plenty of fighting, optional grinding/collecting, and short individual playthroughs with a strong emphasis on repeated playthroughs to build up your guy and find new stuff.
I have to side with story-telling here :P Like most things with gaming, it's a personal, subjective preference, not an objective one. But for me, Even fun gameplay can drag after a pretty short amount of time. In almost every game I've played, the actual game tends to be very, very repetitive. If there isn't a story or narrative driving me to the next level, powerup, or whathaveyou, I tend to get bored mashing the same buttons on the same monsters ad infinitum. The games I personally get my imagination invested in tend to have interesting story arcs driving along the gameplay. I suppose, in hindsight, it's more of a balancing act. But, if a game doesn't have a story or interesting narrative, I tend to bore on the mechanics within about an hour and move on to another game. Just my two cents, I'm certain it differs for everyone.
I'm not too sure about this, Jonathan. Considering Adventure Time's setup, I'm more inclined to think he meant (as mentioned above) storytelling as opposed to actual story. I can't help but feel this is a slight overreaction.
Now that the defense of Mr. Ward is over, the thoughts you presented here are quite valid-- games that put story front and center, but have horrid gameplay, aren't all they're cracked up to be.
Now that the defense of Mr. Ward is over, the thoughts you presented here are quite valid-- games that put story front and center, but have horrid gameplay, aren't all they're cracked up to be.
@J-Holmes
While I agree that story isn't necessary for a great gaming experience and in several instances a shoe-horned story has gotten in the way of a good experience (the non-RPG Mario games shouldn't even pretend to have a story), I don't think that P-Money Ward should be discouraged from trying to include a potentially killer story in his possible game. Also, as Phoenix Gamma mentions, putting "story" front and center doesn't necessarily mean a Kojima-esque plot. Do we know how Pendleton even defines "story"?
While I agree that story isn't necessary for a great gaming experience and in several instances a shoe-horned story has gotten in the way of a good experience (the non-RPG Mario games shouldn't even pretend to have a story), I don't think that P-Money Ward should be discouraged from trying to include a potentially killer story in his possible game. Also, as Phoenix Gamma mentions, putting "story" front and center doesn't necessarily mean a Kojima-esque plot. Do we know how Pendleton even defines "story"?
I get what your saying, Holmes. There are games like L.A. Noire, Heavy Rain, Alan Wake, Catherine, Final Fantasy XIII, and Xenogears that sacrifice interactivity for a deeper narrative. I myself prefer games that give the player freedom to explore and a variety of gameplay options like Batman: Arkham Asylum. Still, why can't video games be a storytelling medium? I believe Bioshock, Fallout 3 and Deus Ex: Human Revolution have shown it's possible to have the best of both.
Why do you think stories must be told in a traditional sense? A game could have a good story without ever taking control from the player's hand or forcing them through cutscenes. Totoro may be simplistic in its plot but you become attached to the characters. Isn't characterization then part of the story?
I think his argument is that there's too much focus on multiplayer over singleplayer but story doesn't mean boring TALK TALK TALK that we see in RPGs or Metal Gear or something. Shadow of the Colossus tells a touching story with maybe one page of dialog and you feel like it's complete at the end.
I think his argument is that there's too much focus on multiplayer over singleplayer but story doesn't mean boring TALK TALK TALK that we see in RPGs or Metal Gear or something. Shadow of the Colossus tells a touching story with maybe one page of dialog and you feel like it's complete at the end.
I agree with you (as always) Holmes, but I think you focused a bit too much on examples of film and television lacking in narrative drive. The fact is that narrative storytelling directly clashes with the interactivity of a video game. I know Tale of Tales aren't too popular on this site, but this lays it out flat: http://notgames.org/blog/against-linearity/
To me, it's not that narrative games are bad, but they don't often feel like they fully utilize the medium, or that they *need* to be video games. Often it feels to me almost like watching a movie while you're playing a game that's totally separate.
To me, it's not that narrative games are bad, but they don't often feel like they fully utilize the medium, or that they *need* to be video games. Often it feels to me almost like watching a movie while you're playing a game that's totally separate.
Nearly every type of media has stories but it comes down to how those stories are told and whether or not they are memorable.
It can be a style over substance kind of thing and completely not in a negative way in regards to well-crafted memorable storytelling.
Take a licensed game like say the Futurama one; it may not have some epic RPG storyline but because it outright copies and leverages the show's format and style for its storytelling it does make what is there memorable and enjoyable.
I would hope that Mr. Ward is speaking of and looking to something of that nature when it comes to translating Adventure Time into a game. And all that my post did was made me realize how much I want an Invader Zim game and how anxious I am to get my hands on Ninokuni.
It boils down to being about how you say something and not just what you say...something which Studio Ghibli knows and does quite well.
It can be a style over substance kind of thing and completely not in a negative way in regards to well-crafted memorable storytelling.
Take a licensed game like say the Futurama one; it may not have some epic RPG storyline but because it outright copies and leverages the show's format and style for its storytelling it does make what is there memorable and enjoyable.
I would hope that Mr. Ward is speaking of and looking to something of that nature when it comes to translating Adventure Time into a game. And all that my post did was made me realize how much I want an Invader Zim game and how anxious I am to get my hands on Ninokuni.
It boils down to being about how you say something and not just what you say...something which Studio Ghibli knows and does quite well.
every story should have a sympathetic hero on a quest with insurmountable odds.
also plot and story are not the same thing
also plot and story are not the same thing
This Ward guy said he wished that story was the most important thing. That's what set off alarm bells in my head.
Story coming before gameplay makes me think of Heavy Rain and Enslaved which really isn't a good thing.
Story coming before gameplay makes me think of Heavy Rain and Enslaved which really isn't a good thing.
Well yeah I cant agree more with that Jonathan;
But still I keep my fingers crossed; Adventure Time is an excellent show the guy is not stupid lets give him some time and see what he will come up with, I just hope his voice will be loud enough in the middle of a development team he would be probably throw in.
Aw well let's have some faith.
But still I keep my fingers crossed; Adventure Time is an excellent show the guy is not stupid lets give him some time and see what he will come up with, I just hope his voice will be loud enough in the middle of a development team he would be probably throw in.
Aw well let's have some faith.
As primarily a fighting game player, I stopped caring about story the moment I learned how to do "cheap" combos on my brothers back in the day.
The first game that comes to mind is Okage, which had interesting characters but dull everything else.
Satsuki and Mei's mom doesn't go back home during the movie.
It ends when she's still at the hospital.
Sorry, I had to °_°
It ends when she's still at the hospital.
Sorry, I had to °_°
I know she's back during the credits... the fact is that my experience with the movie and his story is complete at that point.
Just wanted to be a little annoying =P
Just wanted to be a little annoying =P
I always say, the most important thing about a story is not the story itself, but how it's told. A story can have stereotypical characters, cookie cutter plot and ending but if you tell it right, it will still blow people's minds. Look at all the stories of the world, they all come down to the basics and there's not much "originality". There are many stories out there that could be told in such a way that they sound absolute stupid, but with the right narrator or medium they're awesome.
@Pittanza:
In the official words of the director, the ending credits' pictures ARE part of the ending (whether you feel it or not) and the mom DOES officially come home cured. Check out "The Art of Totoro" book and you'll that he confirms the credits as part of the story.
@Pittanza:
In the official words of the director, the ending credits' pictures ARE part of the ending (whether you feel it or not) and the mom DOES officially come home cured. Check out "The Art of Totoro" book and you'll that he confirms the credits as part of the story.
You don't get it.
Don't think of story as a sprawling epic tale. Think of story as meaningful interaction between characters, down to King Dedede does bad things for good reasons, and kirby doesn't get this. Or how the scout eats the heavies sandwiches. Hell Portal 2 has an amazing story.
Please stop misunderstanding story and sending the message it's okay to underutilize this basic structure of entertainment.
Don't think of story as a sprawling epic tale. Think of story as meaningful interaction between characters, down to King Dedede does bad things for good reasons, and kirby doesn't get this. Or how the scout eats the heavies sandwiches. Hell Portal 2 has an amazing story.
Please stop misunderstanding story and sending the message it's okay to underutilize this basic structure of entertainment.
"It's the worlds that those characters exist in, the significance of the characterization of each principal player, and the way they interact with each other that stick with you"
Which is part of the storytelling :/
I think you missed something crucial here Holmes. A story in games isn't a set script for the main story. It's so much more than that.
Those characters, the world and everything revolving around them and your interactions to them are all part of the storytelling. Without that story to flesh out the characters and the world, you just don't have those characters or that world. They become meaningless.
Characterization is a key part of the story.
Ok, look at FF6 (or 3, depending). What if we removed the story altogether. Now what do we have? JRPG turned combat and...what? Nothing. The characters are part of the storytelling. As is the background history, the world and so on. Without that you have basic gameplay elements.
No Kefka, no memorable moments, just a generic, bland game.
Same for 7, 8, 9 and so on.
Or look at the Elder Scroll series. Oblivion has a main quest, but that's only a small piece of a large game. But the level of storytelling is undeniable. You have dozens and dozens of unique characters and stories that flesh out the world and make it feel alive.
Even Batman Arkham Asylum has a story. Very few games don't. What you seem to be thinking of is "just" the idea of a main campaign story and nothing else like a Hollywood script or something.
Which is part of the storytelling :/
I think you missed something crucial here Holmes. A story in games isn't a set script for the main story. It's so much more than that.
Those characters, the world and everything revolving around them and your interactions to them are all part of the storytelling. Without that story to flesh out the characters and the world, you just don't have those characters or that world. They become meaningless.
Characterization is a key part of the story.
Ok, look at FF6 (or 3, depending). What if we removed the story altogether. Now what do we have? JRPG turned combat and...what? Nothing. The characters are part of the storytelling. As is the background history, the world and so on. Without that you have basic gameplay elements.
No Kefka, no memorable moments, just a generic, bland game.
Same for 7, 8, 9 and so on.
Or look at the Elder Scroll series. Oblivion has a main quest, but that's only a small piece of a large game. But the level of storytelling is undeniable. You have dozens and dozens of unique characters and stories that flesh out the world and make it feel alive.
Even Batman Arkham Asylum has a story. Very few games don't. What you seem to be thinking of is "just" the idea of a main campaign story and nothing else like a Hollywood script or something.
Holmes, sometimes you are retarded in your overreactions and misunderstanding of things. See the feminist crap about Bayonetta and this. DUUHHHH
@epic k x ! Awesome story man ! @ holmes I think what you mean is that you. Enjoy games and moovies that doesnt get in the way or limit the show / movie. And entertainment with stories that leaves somethings to the imagination ? I know I enjoy those things in the examples you mentioned ! Writing on a phone sure is tricky!
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