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Exactly. Everytime I see someone post "This is why games will never be accepted as art" I think WELL THANK FUCK FOR THAT.
Probably equal with rubbing me up the wrong way tied with "You're not a true gamer unless..."
I hope I'm not a "true gamer". Wouldn't want to be assosiated with the tossers who throw that line around.
I hope I'm not a "true gamer". Wouldn't want to be assosiated with the tossers who throw that line around.
Exactly
This is the argument that always goes through my mind whenever I see people debate about whether videogames are "art". As someone who went to art school and knows a thing or two about art I never cared. Just enjoy your games, also the word "art" has been abused so much it doesn't really mean anything anymore. It's simply become a word people use to validate the things they like. Thanks for writing this article.
This is the argument that always goes through my mind whenever I see people debate about whether videogames are "art". As someone who went to art school and knows a thing or two about art I never cared. Just enjoy your games, also the word "art" has been abused so much it doesn't really mean anything anymore. It's simply become a word people use to validate the things they like. Thanks for writing this article.
the problem with a game blogger discussing the meaning of art is that i can think of maybe two off the top of my head who have a remotely adult understanding of art, and neither of them work for destructoid.
Well someone is being ever so slightly just a little bit incredibly hostile about the entire thing.
I don't think debating (some) games as art is pointless: I think it can be done, there is sense in it, and I will do it for as long as I believe it necessary.
But when the Destructoid original has "shut the fuck up" in the title, and writes people and their arguments off as "hysterical", well, then I guess it seems any hope of having a decent discussion got tossed out the window, doesn't it now?
I don't think debating (some) games as art is pointless: I think it can be done, there is sense in it, and I will do it for as long as I believe it necessary.
But when the Destructoid original has "shut the fuck up" in the title, and writes people and their arguments off as "hysterical", well, then I guess it seems any hope of having a decent discussion got tossed out the window, doesn't it now?
Amen to all that.
I mean, seriously. I am in total agreement with the idea that anything can 'be' art, but videogames as art only means most to the gamers, and very little to everyone else. Therefore, it doesn't matter much in general. I even copy/pasted the link to the same urinal image to stress my point in a chatroom (Marcel Duchamp has a lot to answer for...).
And this whole affair with Roger Ebert has become a mess. The argument has become like watching two people fight on top of a moving truck, speeding towards a cliff. We are now at the point where those two men are still trying to beat each other up, except they are at the bottom of the same cliff, amid the wreckage of the truck. Those men have dislocated, amputated and mangled limbs, organs and whatnot, yet are still trying to kill each other. And everyone is watching it unfold.
In short, Ryan Perez has made a common sense article. If you don't believe that, just shut up. It's all you have to do.
I mean, seriously. I am in total agreement with the idea that anything can 'be' art, but videogames as art only means most to the gamers, and very little to everyone else. Therefore, it doesn't matter much in general. I even copy/pasted the link to the same urinal image to stress my point in a chatroom (Marcel Duchamp has a lot to answer for...).
And this whole affair with Roger Ebert has become a mess. The argument has become like watching two people fight on top of a moving truck, speeding towards a cliff. We are now at the point where those two men are still trying to beat each other up, except they are at the bottom of the same cliff, amid the wreckage of the truck. Those men have dislocated, amputated and mangled limbs, organs and whatnot, yet are still trying to kill each other. And everyone is watching it unfold.
In short, Ryan Perez has made a common sense article. If you don't believe that, just shut up. It's all you have to do.
Really simple, like all other things Videogames are an artistic medium like it or lump it. That however does not magically make all videogames works of art.
Sure most video games would classify with the mass produced works that line the walls of your doctor/dentists office. Somewhat pleasing to the eye but generally not considered to be "art".
Art by its very nature is purely subjective.....
Sure most video games would classify with the mass produced works that line the walls of your doctor/dentists office. Somewhat pleasing to the eye but generally not considered to be "art".
Art by its very nature is purely subjective.....
Guys, this is art.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnPNr9yquuc
No, seriously. This is a performance art studio.
Now for my hypothesis. If this is art, anything is art.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnPNr9yquuc
No, seriously. This is a performance art studio.
Now for my hypothesis. If this is art, anything is art.
@Allistair Pinsof
Well, except for Minecraft.
Final conclusion: Minecraft is the only art game ever because people make giants dicks in it.
That's it everybody, you can all go home now!
Well, except for Minecraft.
Final conclusion: Minecraft is the only art game ever because people make giants dicks in it.
That's it everybody, you can all go home now!
@Shinta
This isn't hyperbole: I don't think I've laughed so hard at a video in ... fuck, it's been years. That sure does take me back to college.
... In fact, I think I recognize her from my Visual Language & Culture class.
This isn't hyperbole: I don't think I've laughed so hard at a video in ... fuck, it's been years. That sure does take me back to college.
... In fact, I think I recognize her from my Visual Language & Culture class.
I'm with Shade of Light.
"But when the Destructoid original has 'shut the fuck up' in the title, and writes people and their arguments off as 'hysterical', well, then I guess it seems any hope of having a decent discussion got tossed out the window, doesn't it now?"
I really don't appreciate this sort of blatantly disrespectful attitude, regardless of what the position involved is.
"But when the Destructoid original has 'shut the fuck up' in the title, and writes people and their arguments off as 'hysterical', well, then I guess it seems any hope of having a decent discussion got tossed out the window, doesn't it now?"
I really don't appreciate this sort of blatantly disrespectful attitude, regardless of what the position involved is.
I dated a girl in art-school. Around the time their final projects for the semester were due, someone shit on the floor in the hallway. The janitor left the shit on the floor because he thought it might have been someone's project. True story.
'Nuff Said
'Nuff Said
This debate is exactly the reason I never make my religious views known. It's always "If you don't believe the same things I do, then you're wrong and I have the right to laugh at you." I'm getting that vibe here right now.
I agree with sentiment behind disempowering the word "art", but that doesn't mean I want to shut the fuck up about the whole idea of it, or that I think the word "art" is universally unimportant in every context.
I like talking to other people about what they think is art is. I'm also interested in talking to people about what they thing pornography is, what "grown up" is, what "appropriate" is, what "rock and roll" is, etc. It's fun to talk to people about how they define things and what words mean to them. You get to know a lot about people during those discussions.
This article is actually part of that discussion, even if it's making an effort to end it. It sounds like by Ryan's definition the word art doesn't really mean anything. I don't share that definition, and if anything, that's caused me to be even more interested in Ryan's perspective.
Ryan, do you think that the idea of "art" turns you off so much because you had to deal with so many phonies at art school? Do you think you may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater in the process of dismissing those phonies, and the concept of "art" in general? Is there another word you think we should use instead of "art" when referring to methods of communication that are intended to evoke specific ideas and feelings?
Where do you think the line between art starts and craft begins? If art means nothing to you, what does craft mean to you? If there was a debate going on about if videogames are "craft", would you want to tell people to shut the fuck about that too?
I like talking to other people about what they think is art is. I'm also interested in talking to people about what they thing pornography is, what "grown up" is, what "appropriate" is, what "rock and roll" is, etc. It's fun to talk to people about how they define things and what words mean to them. You get to know a lot about people during those discussions.
This article is actually part of that discussion, even if it's making an effort to end it. It sounds like by Ryan's definition the word art doesn't really mean anything. I don't share that definition, and if anything, that's caused me to be even more interested in Ryan's perspective.
Ryan, do you think that the idea of "art" turns you off so much because you had to deal with so many phonies at art school? Do you think you may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater in the process of dismissing those phonies, and the concept of "art" in general? Is there another word you think we should use instead of "art" when referring to methods of communication that are intended to evoke specific ideas and feelings?
Where do you think the line between art starts and craft begins? If art means nothing to you, what does craft mean to you? If there was a debate going on about if videogames are "craft", would you want to tell people to shut the fuck about that too?
i'm a professional artist and i consider games to be art. there is no arguement that could make me see otherwise - they are art. what i learnt in my early years of art was the concept of aesthetics - which basically boils down to - if someone says its art...then it is art.
what is sad is the height at which art has became an elitism. everyone is capable of creatin art. and anyone is capable of allowin a work of art move them or not.
skyim has giant penises in it - skyrim is art.
you have the right to state that video games are not art - but to say they cannot be?
what is sad is the height at which art has became an elitism. everyone is capable of creatin art. and anyone is capable of allowin a work of art move them or not.
skyim has giant penises in it - skyrim is art.
you have the right to state that video games are not art - but to say they cannot be?
I'm one of those who like to think of games as art because I don't think any of this modern "art" crap is actually art so I like your argument of "this is 'art', do you really want to be in the same group as these people?"
One more time for the record, art.
One more time for the record, art.
i'm a professional artist and i consider games to be art. there is no arguement that could make me see otherwise - they are art. what i learnt in my early years of art was the concept of aesthetics - which basically boils down to - if someone says its art...then it is art.
what is sad is the height at which art has became an elitism. everyone is capable of creatin art. and anyone is capable of allowin a work of art move them or not.
skyim has giant penises in it - skyrim is art.
you have the right to state that video games are not art - but to say they cannot be?
what is sad is the height at which art has became an elitism. everyone is capable of creatin art. and anyone is capable of allowin a work of art move them or not.
skyim has giant penises in it - skyrim is art.
you have the right to state that video games are not art - but to say they cannot be?
@KwikPwn
Comments like that make me wish that comments of the week were still going. I laughed so hard at that.
Comments like that make me wish that comments of the week were still going. I laughed so hard at that.
As someone who argues passionately that games are art, I completely agree.
No, that's not a typo.
I argue that they're art because I believe that any creative endeavor is art. It's a matter of principle for me, not validation, because "art" doesn't mean "good". That giant cock, like the oeuvre of Michael Bay, is bad art, but I would never dispute that it's art. It's only the bullshit rarefied gatekeeper types who do that, because they suck and are dumb. I don't need their approval, because they suck and are dumb.
i don't think it's going too far to ask for games that try to be a little bit more than just "entertaining", but I don't really care if Roger Ebert accepts them as art on his deathbed or not. I know they're art, and I know some of them are great art, and I don't someone else's approval in order to make that call.
No, that's not a typo.
I argue that they're art because I believe that any creative endeavor is art. It's a matter of principle for me, not validation, because "art" doesn't mean "good". That giant cock, like the oeuvre of Michael Bay, is bad art, but I would never dispute that it's art. It's only the bullshit rarefied gatekeeper types who do that, because they suck and are dumb. I don't need their approval, because they suck and are dumb.
i don't think it's going too far to ask for games that try to be a little bit more than just "entertaining", but I don't really care if Roger Ebert accepts them as art on his deathbed or not. I know they're art, and I know some of them are great art, and I don't someone else's approval in order to make that call.
I think the point really isn't that video games should be art, like you said, art is really not interactive. I think what people really mean is that they want something on par with the emotion you find in excellent movies, tv shows, books, poems, etc. There's a certain amount of depth some people want to what they consume, and I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting that, however, video games do need something of a professional forum of discussion.
That's where "games jurnalizm" comes into play here, blogs about gaming lack professionalism, and while I love reading something that won't take itself totally seriously, sometimes I do want to see something besides "I love this series and this seems like a pretty cool idea, I can't wait for the next one." Games really reflect this, and while I love that games like just pleasing fans sometimes, sometimes I want a developer to say "Hold on here, let's take everything you see fun in a game, and let's redefine it."
Suda51 loves to do this, especially in some of his earlier "games" that really destroy the usual definition of "fun," but rebuild it, and try something new. Flower, Sun, and Rain does this by turning the game into something akin to a resort simulator with adventure roots, Killer7 does this by putting you in a noir setting and giving you control over what acts like an on rails game. These sort of games can really be talked about for hours, not just on the basis of "what do you think this means," but also on the casual "wow, how did you feel about this?" This being said, all I see in the community is feelings, and it seems very overdone. Rarely do I see somewhere where a person takes the next step by regarding the game with respect, and claiming something outside their feelings, and that's okay, but doesn't do anything for anyone. Games shouldn't be an experience that ends after you finish it, it should stick to your mind like any good book, movie, show, play, or whatever.
I'm tempted to disagree with you purely on your cynicism, but I think all mediums need to stop calling certain things "art" and not, because like you said, really all you're doing is making a stupid statement that has little worth. Depth is one thing, but an experience as "art" is another, one which video games CAN'T do, but it should be proud of being unable to make the player a passive part of the experience. Video games need to assess depth however they want, making use of symbolism and themes like other mediums, or trying to let the players define the gameplay, like Deus Ex for example. Games should be games, but they shouldn't feel afraid to find influence outside of itself.
While some might appreciate your biting cynicism, I might tailor myself a little more to be more approachable. I think the "art" tag is something which all mediums need to think about more, and while you definitely have your points, you get snarky and rather arrogant, which detracts from your points for anyone who doesn't see things like you do. Don't get offended, just know that it could use some more control, if you want to make a truly impressive point.
That's where "games jurnalizm" comes into play here, blogs about gaming lack professionalism, and while I love reading something that won't take itself totally seriously, sometimes I do want to see something besides "I love this series and this seems like a pretty cool idea, I can't wait for the next one." Games really reflect this, and while I love that games like just pleasing fans sometimes, sometimes I want a developer to say "Hold on here, let's take everything you see fun in a game, and let's redefine it."
Suda51 loves to do this, especially in some of his earlier "games" that really destroy the usual definition of "fun," but rebuild it, and try something new. Flower, Sun, and Rain does this by turning the game into something akin to a resort simulator with adventure roots, Killer7 does this by putting you in a noir setting and giving you control over what acts like an on rails game. These sort of games can really be talked about for hours, not just on the basis of "what do you think this means," but also on the casual "wow, how did you feel about this?" This being said, all I see in the community is feelings, and it seems very overdone. Rarely do I see somewhere where a person takes the next step by regarding the game with respect, and claiming something outside their feelings, and that's okay, but doesn't do anything for anyone. Games shouldn't be an experience that ends after you finish it, it should stick to your mind like any good book, movie, show, play, or whatever.
I'm tempted to disagree with you purely on your cynicism, but I think all mediums need to stop calling certain things "art" and not, because like you said, really all you're doing is making a stupid statement that has little worth. Depth is one thing, but an experience as "art" is another, one which video games CAN'T do, but it should be proud of being unable to make the player a passive part of the experience. Video games need to assess depth however they want, making use of symbolism and themes like other mediums, or trying to let the players define the gameplay, like Deus Ex for example. Games should be games, but they shouldn't feel afraid to find influence outside of itself.
While some might appreciate your biting cynicism, I might tailor myself a little more to be more approachable. I think the "art" tag is something which all mediums need to think about more, and while you definitely have your points, you get snarky and rather arrogant, which detracts from your points for anyone who doesn't see things like you do. Don't get offended, just know that it could use some more control, if you want to make a truly impressive point.
Yes, there are those who merely seek to validate their favourite hobby as something more than Bleep Bloops, blood, swearing and violence; validate it against those who either don't care or don't agree, like Roger Ebert a few years ago.
However, to dismiss the argument of games as art entirely is somewhat misguided. There are those of us who believe that games can exist as an "art form" in its own right, without the need to compare it to abstract paintings and pretentious Oscar winning silent films. Art is literally defined as "the use of skill and imagination in the creation of aesthetic objects, environments, or experiences that can be shared with others". If you ask me, that's a definition that potentially suits gaming down to the ground.
But what you must consider is that not everyone who believes games are art is expecting masterpieces from everyone, or even believes there is such a thing as a gaming masterpiece. Whilst some point to stuff like Journey, Flower and Braid as "art" games, I for one would just as happily lump the likes of Dead Space 2, Resistance 3 or Uncharted. Like it or not, all games with a running narrative or that at least craft some kind of experience are art. Whether they're good art is another matter all together, but games differ from other leisure activities in that they are generally crafted with intent to portray an experience. Games are art. Deal with it.
However, to dismiss the argument of games as art entirely is somewhat misguided. There are those of us who believe that games can exist as an "art form" in its own right, without the need to compare it to abstract paintings and pretentious Oscar winning silent films. Art is literally defined as "the use of skill and imagination in the creation of aesthetic objects, environments, or experiences that can be shared with others". If you ask me, that's a definition that potentially suits gaming down to the ground.
But what you must consider is that not everyone who believes games are art is expecting masterpieces from everyone, or even believes there is such a thing as a gaming masterpiece. Whilst some point to stuff like Journey, Flower and Braid as "art" games, I for one would just as happily lump the likes of Dead Space 2, Resistance 3 or Uncharted. Like it or not, all games with a running narrative or that at least craft some kind of experience are art. Whether they're good art is another matter all together, but games differ from other leisure activities in that they are generally crafted with intent to portray an experience. Games are art. Deal with it.
This is the bottom line. Art is subjective. If you think it's art, that should be more than enough for you. This whole wanting games to be art argument is stupid because if you think they are art, who the fuck is anybody to tell you you're wrong? And if you need someone to acknowledge the whole thing for you, maybe you should stop giving a damn what other people think.
It's in the eye of the beholder. So grow a pair and trust your own eyes for once.
It's in the eye of the beholder. So grow a pair and trust your own eyes for once.
I really hate this new sentiment that people need to shut up or not think critically about things. Being ignorant and locking yourself into just one viewpoint without leaving any room to be enlightened or change is not a very constructive state to be in.
Just because you personally feel you don't get anything out of those discussions doesn't make them not valuable on some level. You telling people they need to shut the fuck up just because you don't like what they are discussing is at best, incredibly childish and close minded.
Just because you personally feel you don't get anything out of those discussions doesn't make them not valuable on some level. You telling people they need to shut the fuck up just because you don't like what they are discussing is at best, incredibly childish and close minded.
Remember this!?
I like reading about or discussing the artistic aspects of games, but the actual “Are they art? Let my prove it to you!” thing is played out.
Soooo, if you're tired about the argument, why did you bring it back up?
I really think it is art if people want it to be, and not if they don't. There are a lot of contemporary pieces I consider crap and not art but others would venerate the same crap and even calling them masterpieces.
I just think live and let live. If someone wants to consider some games as art, let them. I know I have a couple that come to mind. But then again, not the entire medium.
I really think it is art if people want it to be, and not if they don't. There are a lot of contemporary pieces I consider crap and not art but others would venerate the same crap and even calling them masterpieces.
I just think live and let live. If someone wants to consider some games as art, let them. I know I have a couple that come to mind. But then again, not the entire medium.
[With arms extended I step into crossfire ready to be hated on.]
The way I've always seen it is that there are "art literature", "art movies", "art music", and "art games". On the other side there are "simply books", "simply music", and "simply games."
Examples? Okay:
Art/Simply literature: Beowulf/Twilight; Art/Simply movies: Citizen Kane/Transformers; Art/Simply music: Beethoven/Justin Bieber; Art/Simply game: [?]/[?] - For some reason we can't figure this part out
Over the course of history perspective adds artistic aspects or relevance to a work. Look at Beowulf for an example of that. (People of today may very well find Mario the Beowulf of video games.)
Methinks we need more perspective. Maybe it is that games are made by companies, but then again so are movies.
A medium is a medium, and as far as I see it there is artistic possibility in any medium. It is the hand of the crafter that determines the purpose of the work.
---
I wonder if anyone will try personally attacking me or my intelligence.
The way I've always seen it is that there are "art literature", "art movies", "art music", and "art games". On the other side there are "simply books", "simply music", and "simply games."
Examples? Okay:
Art/Simply literature: Beowulf/Twilight; Art/Simply movies: Citizen Kane/Transformers; Art/Simply music: Beethoven/Justin Bieber; Art/Simply game: [?]/[?] - For some reason we can't figure this part out
Over the course of history perspective adds artistic aspects or relevance to a work. Look at Beowulf for an example of that. (People of today may very well find Mario the Beowulf of video games.)
Methinks we need more perspective. Maybe it is that games are made by companies, but then again so are movies.
A medium is a medium, and as far as I see it there is artistic possibility in any medium. It is the hand of the crafter that determines the purpose of the work.
---
I wonder if anyone will try personally attacking me or my intelligence.
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