Wow man, this is how it is done professionally. Bravo.
@ It didnt have to turn into the shit storm it did.
That is absolutly the proper way of thinking, however I completly disagree and would like to point out two items.
First being, when someone is absolute scum like Anita, I feel its very important to bring emotion to the table, especially in the face of praise of all things. However professional we all want to be, whatever intelligent debate we have IMO has to filter through the lens of "ok but we are dealing with a complete POS here".
Second is, obviosly, the authors involvement. I'm sure its being handled internally, but for Stephen to put that crap up, offer nothing to the discussion or explain his thoughts, and then to go full on and passivly attack the community on twitter really didnt help things.
For future reference, which I'm sure has been noticed, everything about the whole shebang could have out differently if Chris had done the interview in the first place, much like this one here.
She said it's silly to be running around like that because it's not practical when she should be wearing armour. He explained that she has a force field which means she can wear whatever she wants without risk of injury. Sarkeesian, at least in the examples she gave, doesn't seem to have done much research or paid much attention to the games. I think Chris has shown that quite clearly and he did respond directly to her criticism.
The fact that you're trying to sum up his well thought out blog post in such an off-hand manner doesn't do your argument much justice, whatever it may be. Maybe you could make a blog post and things might be a bit clearer? I'd certainly be interested to find out what's wrong with characters looking attractive, because that sure as hell isn't what sexism and misogyny is.
I would definitely go much further though and condemn pretty much all of mdoern feminism. That's also not a personal attack, but just my totally legitimate feelings about the legitimacy of the movement. This is even more true when you look at feminism's focus on gaming related issues.
And while I won't personally attack Anita's character, I will attack her beliefs, which - like it or not - she is pushing on us. She wants to regulate what people are allowed to play in games because of totally nonsensical reasons. Someone who tries to lecture all of society like that should be ridiculed. When Jack Thompson says GTA is making violent killers he does get personal attacks. When Christian fundamentalists protest games because of their content, they do get personal attacks. But when a feminist fundamentalist tries to tell everyone what they're allowed to do, they're immune to personal attacks, why? Because she's a girl?
I'm not saying that people should send her threats and harass her, but any time her views come up in public, they should be ridiculed as the rantings of a fundamentalist - because that's what they are.
In there intetest of time, and continually repeating some of the most vile and harsh comments i've ever seen (or posted) I would like to just redirect you to the 300+ comments on the article that started this.
Needless to say they have been backed through alot of "discussion" if you will, and actually I was just trying to go with the professionalism theme as I think scum and POS are pretty LIGHT claims all things considered.
!?!?!?!??!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?
!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!!?!??!
I also want to point out the Rayman Origins point. Now I don't agree with it necessarily, and I think it's interesting that despite being Sexual they are all a bit "curvier" than most women you see in video games who look like a post with two basketballs strapped to it. But, when she said that it bothered her a bit that they are constantly being saved by the male characters I paused because I had never even thought of that. I don't think that it is a problem in that game, but the fact that I didn't even think about it might be a little one. I've said it before but it's usually not individual cases that are prejudice, but the pattern.
And I think that is why this project might be good. Do I think this is going to save the women of the world and change everything? No, but I would be happy to see a series that brings to light things that I might have never thought about. That doesn't mean I will agree with her conclusions, but the dialog seems worth while. And I assume that when she actually sits down to make the videos she will put in the thoroughness that many people demanded from a random interview.
And to people who still say "this will change nothing" that is what people keep saying about Extra Credits despite the fact that they have gotten responses from major publishers and are currently working with Microsoft to fight online harassment.
@ Chris: Fantastic article, I wasn't really paying attention to the actual idea of the series, just that it might be interesting to watch, and that all the people who attacked her should be ashamed of themselves for being so pants-on-head stupid. Reading this article makes me realize that if that's the extent of the viewpoints on these characters, things are about to get worse for her. Here's hoping she does her homework more before releasing the first episode.
So... this woman wants females in games to be dressed like male, behave like male and treated like male?
What's wrong of having good looking females kicking ass in a video game? That's one thing I love about gaming. Girl fighting monsters with high heels on? That's super cool.
It's a catch 22, every single model of female is just wrong or horrible for some people.
If she's sure about her and her sexuality a la Bayonetta, she's made for pigs wanting to masturbate.
If she's cute and timid you're a pig that thinks all women need to be protected
If she's absolutely sure of herself and doesn't show any skin and she's just badass, you think women need to be like men to be cool.
No seriously, i HATE that, i can clearly see the problem with braindead characters a la Mileena from MK, but some of the "tropes" discussed are absolutely absurd.
Apparently, "Positive Female Characters!" is one of the scheduled videos for the web series, so that particular video may eventually answer your question about what a more positive and less demeaning portrayal of women in games might look like (I recall her once mentioning Faith from Mirror's Edge as an example and no doubt Jade from Beyond Good and Evil would be another one).
So, there is, at least, one video in the series guaranteed not to be solely "negative."
Can't think of anything else to add, you did a fine job pointing out something that a lot of people have been saying since this project started.
For example, if she is going to bring up Mai Shiranui, do acknowledge Blue Mary,Kula Diamond, and King (or even if she wanted to show some degrees of 'sexualization', Vice,Mature or even Leona) from the SNK fighting game family to give people an impression of character types that she'd like to see more of.
Wonderful points.
On one hand, I find an intellectual shallowness to what I've seen of her approach in terms of a social critique of video games through the lens of feminism. People should feel free to correct me, but the idea I got from the kickstarter video was that this was going to be an academic approach to these issues. That being the case, I don't see a real thesis here. It's simply not investigative enough for me. Instead, it seems like a skimming of some broader points of feminist theory crammed into the mold of critiquing video games. I'm looking for ideas that go beyond the obvious sexism of scantily clad masturbatory fantasies and what feels like a cursory look at already well-worn tropes of gender roles in media. It's simply not enough, in my opinion, to point to characters and make comments like "needs to be saved by man" or "shown as weak". What's the overall, new idea that's being explored that hasn't been said in many, many feminist critiques of modern media? This in no way invalidates some of her observations, but I would challenge her to up the ante and look deeper, coming up with an original thesis on the whys of this issue, something beyond what a freshman in their first semester of media critique would do and get B- on.
But then. Then. I look at many of the comments that follow this woman around the internet and think what's the point to up the ante when there are so many people so angry over her simply pointing out the obvious. Sure, we can blame the fact that mass market video games are trying to cater to a young and youngish male demographic. OK, sometimes these tropes can make some semblance of sense in the story written for them. Yes, true, there ARE some people (some) who will never be happy with the representation of women in any media that's not coming FROM a woman. But if this many gamers truly can't see ANY problems with the representation of women in some of these games well.... I can't help you, man.
In short, every time I have a problem with what she says, I start to read comments on the article it's written in and I'm suddenly at a loss because there are so many people proving her point for her.
I guess my response would be: why should anyone care if she thinks someone's choice of clothing is silly? Maybe i like to roll one pant leg up to my thigh and walk around like that.
That IS silly, but no one complains about Tidus' wardrobe.
@Chris: thank you for being level headed enough to dissect her weak-ass arguments in the appropriate manner.
Its too bad all those people wasted their money on this woman.
Observe dictionary definition #1:
one of a numerous class of lesser deities of mythology, conceived of as beautiful maidens inhabiting the sea, rivers, woods, trees, mountains, meadows, etc., and frequently mentioned as attending a superior deity.
It's not really about searching for "problems." It's about whether or not this has the right to exist in a society that respects freedom of speech and freedom of artistic expression. If we all start searching for "problems" then we should start by banning Lady Gaga.
That's what you're missing. Say Anita personally doesn't like Gravity Rush and says she feels the costume is ridiculous so she doesn't want to play it. That's 100% fine and completely her right. But what she's saying is that it's ridiculous and it shouldn't have the right to exist - that it's a problem that has to be corrected for everyone.
That is why she's a fundamentalist.
Careful here. Kat is a fictional character, so all of her characteristics are determined by the people who created her. Did Kat's creators decide that she enjoyed dressing this way because they thought this was a realistic character quirk to give her, or did they decide she enjoyed dressing this way as a means to justify showing her in a sexualized outfit?
You can make a reasonable case for each, but in media where women in revealing or sexually charged outfits is the norm whereas women dressed modestly are the exception (not just games, this applies to, say, comic books as well) you can't automatically discount "the artist is trying to show 'teh sexy' there." I mean, you *could* narratively justify Power Girl's boob hole (google it if you don't know what I"m talking about) by saying "she gets really hot when she's fighting crime and so needs it for ventilation" but everybody knows that the reason Power Girl had that ridiculous outfit was because the Artist wanted to draw attention to her breasts.
Anita seems to be painting things with a very broad brush. For every weak female character, there is a strong female character. Also, most games are targeted toward the male demographic which is the majority of people buying the games in the first place. I don't see anything wrong with developers creating games catering to their largest market.
I -really- dislike what Anita is trying to do. She's been using shallow, thoughtless examples in order to prove(?) her points(?). The gravity rush example irked me enough to actually write this. She doesn't find it ridiculous that the hero is capable of flying, what she finds odd about it is that shes flying in HIGH HEELS. Then in 15 video game years, her non-super powered high heels are going to cause her knee pain.
Boy, she sure knows how to deconstruct. Let me try! Look at Solid Snake shoot all of those guys in his hot bandana. He's so mysterious. He just took out a giant robot with a pistol...while smoking?! How can he find the endurance to do all of these rolls if he smokes. In 50 years, he's going to be paying for this!
Are there no girls who enjoy dressing up?
As for Zia, her journey would not signify strength as far as game tropes go. Characters that are clearly not powerful show up in places they have no business surviving in all of the time. To me Zia seemed to be portrayed as a sort of delicate flower.
But really what I think it boils down to is this; Anita is actively looking for offensive tropes, while you are actively looking to discredit those. If you want to find something badly enough, you'll find it.
It's not sexy to show a woman fighting wearing footwear that is completely impractical for combat, it's just stupid. You don't *need* to do it (how many people IRL do you see fighting in heels?) so why do you voluntarily do it? This is the sort of thing that should be called out more.
I must have missed this part of her argument. Could you direct me to where she specifically says that things she doesn't like or finds fault with shouldn't have the right to exist?
I believe you're missing my point. Assuredly, there are women who enjoy dressing up. But when was the last time a strong female protagonist in a game expressed a preference towards modesty in her apparel? If you accept "she just likes to dress this way" as a justification for dressing up a character in a certain outfit, thereby absolving the artist of responsibility, you can literally justify dressing any character anyway you want without fear of criticism.
I know for a fact, if I was going to run around fighting against evil, no matter what superpowers I have, I wouldn't want to wear a skirt and heels.
It's completely disingenuous to pretend like this isn't the end game here.
If she was trying to promote games with no sexism in it, no sexualized characters and just trying to help broaden the available choices by encouraging the development of new games that cater to her taste, she wouldn't be a fundamentalist. But that's not what she, or any of the feminist critique of gaming is trying to do. Instead they want to shame everyone into making the content for them, or else.
Nice to see someone who can fight our corner without making us look like the entitled white males they think we are.
I think her problem is that she doesn't play the games she reviews or comments on, she just goes off what she has seen. I'd love to see her rebuttal to this article - and i'd also love to see what you have to say on her Bayonetta review.
Change? Videogames are already making changes, and I personally feel that Anita is simply cashing in on a media frenzy. It's like she just ignored the Portal Series, and skimmed right over Metroid.
I love the diversity that videogames have, I love that games can still shock people. Can you imagine if EVERY game were just perfect characters ideally suited to a given situation, that broadly appealed to EVERYONE?
My God, I would love to actually have a face to face chat with this woman, and have it broadcast to the world.
Mass Effect 1-3
Portal 1-2
Skyrim
Final Fantasy VI
Metroid
Mirror's Edge
Lost Odyssey
El Shaddai
Everything on iOS and Facebook
I could keep going and going and going, but I have to get ready for work now. All people have to do is support games they like with their money, and they'll see more of it. Don't shame everyone else who likes something different.
I think most of what you said is understandable except for your interpretation of what she said about Gravity Rush? Where exactly does she say that these things that bother her shouldn't be aloud to exist? I haven't seen anything like that. People keep talking about their rights being denied and I just don't see it. She has an opinion (a strong one, yes) but it's opinion and there's nothing wrong with putting it out. If she went to the government trying to get it regulated then a point could be made, but she's not.
And (not aimed at you, Shinta) but arguing about the rights and choices of a created character is just unbelievably silly.
So no more shirtless dudes with ginormous swords using only their radical hair and stat points for defense?
The argument is silly if it cannot be applied to both genders, right? Since equality is the goal, yes?
Ummm....what? I honestly don't exactly understand your argument against the project. Are you suggesting that Sarkeesian wants to ban games that have "problematic" content about women?
Moreover, she is clearly not a fundamentalist in any sense.
We don't even have to engage in hypotheticals about whether or not she liked Gravity Rush. She actually said that she was ' loving' the game in the interview and her response about Kat's footwear was obviously just a throw away joke (not exactly a good one) rather than a serious criticism of the game. It was just an aspect of the game that slightly rubbed her the wrong way in spite of her love for it, an characteristic which she gave in answer to Stephen's question: "Have you played any games that you absolutely adored in spite of their failings in that regard, or perhaps some instances where you are willing to overlook such discrepancies simply because you fell in love with the game?"
@pisscubes
For the record, great comment. One of the most reasonable and even-handed posts to come out of this comment section. Kudos.
I'm tired and got hit in the head pretty hard today. So destructoid, any chance of getting a edit button for comments?
The only point of a media critique is NOT to shame developers. There are millions of books, journals, essays, documentaries, etc that critique media through specific lenses-- feminist theory, cultural history, the development of gay rights in a particular society, etc etc etc etc. You're proposing that these are only done to shame people as opposed to attempting a deconstruction of them to study what the author thinks they're saying about the society in which we live. I think that's way off.
Again, where are you getting this idea that her entire idea is to stop people from making games? The closest you come to substantiating this is by saying that some people in some comments in some article threaten a boycott (which would, of course, be their right but still shows no intention on the author's point of rallying people to stopping the creation of games). Where does SHE insist that these things shouldn't exist and need to be stopped for the good of her?
I mean, in my case, Rayman Origins is literally the first Rayman game I ever played. I didn't know anything about the mythology of the game, and I did think that the depiction of the Nymphs were a bit much. I understand that the Nymph is historically a sexualized creature, but again the game's artists and animators were able to depict the Nymphs however they liked, and chose to do it in the way that appeared in the game. If you asked me how I felt about Rayman Origins, somewhere down the line I would probably note that the game could have honestly stood for a little less breast-bouncing for the Nymphs as it's not really necessary to get the point across. I don't think this is necessarily wrong, or even an unreasonable opinion.
But if you paid me to talk about video games, I probably would have played a Rayman game other than the last one, and would be able to offer a more informed take on the franchise.
The only point of a media critique is NOT to shame developers. There are millions of books, journals, essays, documentaries, etc that critique media through specific lenses-- feminist theory, cultural history, the development of gay rights in a particular society, etc etc etc etc. You're proposing that these are only done to shame people as opposed to attempting a deconstruction of them to study what the author thinks they're saying about the society in which we live. I think that's way off.
Again, where are you getting this idea that her entire idea is to stop people from making games? The closest you come to substantiating this is by saying that some people in some comments in some article threaten a boycott (which would, of course, be their right but still shows no intention on the author's point of rallying people to stopping the creation of games). Where does SHE insist that these things shouldn't exist and need to be stopped for the good of her?
Those are games in which women wear sensible clothing (except for that cocktail dress in the Kasumi DLC for Mass Effect 2), absolutely but I didn't ask a question about what they wore, I asked a preference about whether they expressed a preference to dress this way. I mean, you can absolutely find examples of female characters who vocally express their fondness for frilly things, when was the last time you saw an example of a female character who vocally expressed her fondness for practical things in any context beyond "I am embarrassed because I have to wear this outfit I feel uncomfortable in."
And before you make the argument "hes not being sexualised!" how else does one accomplish this other than making him near naked and ripped like Jesus?
I'd like to respond to that since I complained about that. I feel that is a perfectly valid complaint. If you are going to complain about something, imo you damn well better have all the facts, or else you are spreading misinformation. With all the people listening to her, that should be her first priority. Hopefully when her series debuts, she has actually had the time to really play these titles and hopefully she fully payed attention.

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