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@Qreg- To go further than the valid points you already made,all video game characters are literally objects of art whether their forms are based upon abstract concepts or are meant to be accurate or idealized representations of individuals or groups who may or may not exist or could or could not exist. Too many people lose sight of these facts.
Video game character are personified objects, digital automatons, not people. Video game makers have no actual power over real people. A 'naked' video game character has no more say in their perceived nudity than a classical nude statue,true. They also have no more perception than said statues.
Maybe one day, if Artificial Intelligence reaches a sufficient degree of complexity to become genuine intelligence, things will be different.
If Booth Babes were the topic, then the major issue there would be the hiring of people primarily for their physical attributes, body builders and models and their ilk. There is a lot of ground to cover there, as modeling is almost entirely built around objectification of some sort.
Part of that debate would have to cover how or why sexual objectification is worse than the objectification of the Hand Model who is reduced to a pair of disembodied parts or the person who plays a bit part of a dead body,of course.
Video game character are personified objects, digital automatons, not people. Video game makers have no actual power over real people. A 'naked' video game character has no more say in their perceived nudity than a classical nude statue,true. They also have no more perception than said statues.
Maybe one day, if Artificial Intelligence reaches a sufficient degree of complexity to become genuine intelligence, things will be different.
If Booth Babes were the topic, then the major issue there would be the hiring of people primarily for their physical attributes, body builders and models and their ilk. There is a lot of ground to cover there, as modeling is almost entirely built around objectification of some sort.
Part of that debate would have to cover how or why sexual objectification is worse than the objectification of the Hand Model who is reduced to a pair of disembodied parts or the person who plays a bit part of a dead body,of course.
"So no more shirtless dudes with ginormous swords using only their radical hair and stat points for defense?
The argument is silly if it cannot be applied to both genders, right? Since equality is the goal, yes?"
Generally speaking, yes. But I think you're engaging in a false equivalency here. If the world in which I lived was one where I could effectively wield a sword as tall as a house and I could rock physically impossible hair, then I could find a reason to do this. Physically impossible impossible hair is potentially awesome, and that sword as hard as a house probably hits pretty hard. By forgoing armor, you will likely be able to move faster and won't tire out so quickly.
But the thing is, if you wear a skirt and heels, it's more difficult to do things like run, kick, and maintain your balance. There is literally nothing that works in favor of "fighting in heels" beyond "it shows 'teh sexy'." In general, if you want to figure out what a female (or male) character should be wearing to fight, look at people like soldiers, martial artists, and MMA fighters (each of which is available in both sexes.)
So like what C.Viper is wearing in Street Fighter? That's a fairly justifiable outfit (exposing the midriff is even reasonable since nobody is using weapons). What Chun Li is wearing? Significantly less so.
The argument is silly if it cannot be applied to both genders, right? Since equality is the goal, yes?"
Generally speaking, yes. But I think you're engaging in a false equivalency here. If the world in which I lived was one where I could effectively wield a sword as tall as a house and I could rock physically impossible hair, then I could find a reason to do this. Physically impossible impossible hair is potentially awesome, and that sword as hard as a house probably hits pretty hard. By forgoing armor, you will likely be able to move faster and won't tire out so quickly.
But the thing is, if you wear a skirt and heels, it's more difficult to do things like run, kick, and maintain your balance. There is literally nothing that works in favor of "fighting in heels" beyond "it shows 'teh sexy'." In general, if you want to figure out what a female (or male) character should be wearing to fight, look at people like soldiers, martial artists, and MMA fighters (each of which is available in both sexes.)
So like what C.Viper is wearing in Street Fighter? That's a fairly justifiable outfit (exposing the midriff is even reasonable since nobody is using weapons). What Chun Li is wearing? Significantly less so.
@Possible
No, no, you have the floor. What specifically do you want. If you don't want to actually explain it then don't answer.
No, no, you have the floor. What specifically do you want. If you don't want to actually explain it then don't answer.
@Syn
I will admit Kratos is sexualized when you can find me someone who finds Kratos sexy. He's not. Kratos is a male power fantasy, which is fine, as "fulfilling power fantasies" are one of the things that video games do best. But there's a big difference between "this character looks like this because we want our players to identify with this character and feel awesome" and "this character looks like this because we want them to find this character sexy."
But saying "Kratos is nearly naked, so that justifies female characters being nearly naked" is almost the definition of "false equivalency."
I will admit Kratos is sexualized when you can find me someone who finds Kratos sexy. He's not. Kratos is a male power fantasy, which is fine, as "fulfilling power fantasies" are one of the things that video games do best. But there's a big difference between "this character looks like this because we want our players to identify with this character and feel awesome" and "this character looks like this because we want them to find this character sexy."
But saying "Kratos is nearly naked, so that justifies female characters being nearly naked" is almost the definition of "false equivalency."
@Possible Cabbage- If female characters with the same stats who exist in the exact same game world wore the exact same thing as those macho male protagonists whose attire you gave a pass to ,would you have a problem with that kind of direct equality?
I just don't see the point of people needing to argue real-life issues in a fantasy world. Character's outfits are designed more-so for originality than practicality. I actually -don't- want my female characters to be in full suits of protection. I want individuality within the specific game's world.
@ PossibleCabbage
I find Kratos' body type sexy. His head, no, his body, yes.
@ PossibleCabbage
I find Kratos' body type sexy. His head, no, his body, yes.
@Faux Furry- Also, for good measure, what if they all looked some what like pretty boys or had harsh features and 'cool' scars and dressed like Kratos or Jacob from Twilight?
Nearly every healthy body type is sexy to someone,sure enough, but those ones are less mainstream North American media friendly kinds of attractiveness.
Nearly every healthy body type is sexy to someone,sure enough, but those ones are less mainstream North American media friendly kinds of attractiveness.
@PossibleCabbage: so its ok for fantastical things to apply for men for no reason but not for women? A man can go to battle wearing nothing and thats ok tactically but a woman has to dress up because YOU decided?
How about how Sephiroth fighting with no top cover at all? Same situation but you cant tell me women dont find him attractive.
Also, what Faux Furry said.
How about how Sephiroth fighting with no top cover at all? Same situation but you cant tell me women dont find him attractive.
Also, what Faux Furry said.
@Levi Elwood Myers
So here's my answer, timestamped to this date in 2012. When the medium evolves to be doing more things better, then different things should be done, obviously.
Okay, so here's what I want out of a female protagonist.
First and foremost, is a human being first and a woman second.
Has a build and chooses attire that is realistic and appropriate for what she has chosen to do (if she's a fighter, have her wear something that's well-suited to fighting in, if she's an athlete give her the build of an athlete, not a fashion model.)
I want the game to fanatically avoid patronizing the character or the player. Don't point out how hard or unlikely it is for her to achieve what she has achieved because she is female, don't subject the character to abuse that you would not also subject a male character to do (so avoid "sexual assault" plotlines with Lara Croft until we can make a game in which someone tries to rape Nathan Drake.)
I want her to behave in a manner that is appropriate to the circumstances she finds herself in. If she faces a dire and terrible situation, have her deal with it with appropriate gravity. That is to say, don't giggle at the apocalypse. It's not hard to find writers who will write a woman character as something out of a stereotype.
And that's pretty much all I want. Someday we will be able to make games about specifically female issues without being patronizing or insulting about it, but that time isn't yet, since this medium is very young, and there a lot of things that games aren't well equipped to deal with that have nothing to do with sex or gender.
So here's my answer, timestamped to this date in 2012. When the medium evolves to be doing more things better, then different things should be done, obviously.
Okay, so here's what I want out of a female protagonist.
First and foremost, is a human being first and a woman second.
Has a build and chooses attire that is realistic and appropriate for what she has chosen to do (if she's a fighter, have her wear something that's well-suited to fighting in, if she's an athlete give her the build of an athlete, not a fashion model.)
I want the game to fanatically avoid patronizing the character or the player. Don't point out how hard or unlikely it is for her to achieve what she has achieved because she is female, don't subject the character to abuse that you would not also subject a male character to do (so avoid "sexual assault" plotlines with Lara Croft until we can make a game in which someone tries to rape Nathan Drake.)
I want her to behave in a manner that is appropriate to the circumstances she finds herself in. If she faces a dire and terrible situation, have her deal with it with appropriate gravity. That is to say, don't giggle at the apocalypse. It's not hard to find writers who will write a woman character as something out of a stereotype.
And that's pretty much all I want. Someday we will be able to make games about specifically female issues without being patronizing or insulting about it, but that time isn't yet, since this medium is very young, and there a lot of things that games aren't well equipped to deal with that have nothing to do with sex or gender.
"Fact" is a funny word when used to describe any part of Feminist Frequency. Fact is her offerings are clearly intended to incite, regardless of their inaccuracy. That's the thing that makes all of this so asinine; one side offers opinion and misinformation while the other side either becomes irrationally outraged or reasons with the unreasonable bigots.
I thought this piece was well written, I enjoyed seeing Chris calmly correct things, and therein ultimately lies the problem. She does not stand on solid ground, and rather than offering a reasonably valid observation, she's picking fights using poor information, and we're spending too much time correcting her erroneous messages.
The discussion here has become one of positive female characters (or rather how negative sexist examples are actually not sexist), by virtue of this conversation we have now we're giving her entirely too much credence and too much attention.
If nothing else, this experience has given her more rope, and a nice sturdy platform on which to demonstrate just how dishonest and lopsided Feminist Frequency really is.
I thought this piece was well written, I enjoyed seeing Chris calmly correct things, and therein ultimately lies the problem. She does not stand on solid ground, and rather than offering a reasonably valid observation, she's picking fights using poor information, and we're spending too much time correcting her erroneous messages.
The discussion here has become one of positive female characters (or rather how negative sexist examples are actually not sexist), by virtue of this conversation we have now we're giving her entirely too much credence and too much attention.
If nothing else, this experience has given her more rope, and a nice sturdy platform on which to demonstrate just how dishonest and lopsided Feminist Frequency really is.
I prefer to be the mandatory jerk who says "this fem-fag knows nothing about gaming and she doesn't even give a shit, she scored 150 fucking grand and you well know it's very, very, VERY likely it won't be put to any decent use"
Kratos's outfit is justified because it's successful as a male power fantasy. If you wanted to dress up a female character in a ridiculous outfit as a female power fantasy, then that would be acceptable. If [appropriate gender] power fantasy doubles as eye-candy for viewers who are sexually attracted to that gender, then that's fine that's just a bonus.
But, to borrow an example from film, a female power fantasy is a lot closer to Gina Carano in "Haywire", than to anything in "Sucker Punch."
But, to borrow an example from film, a female power fantasy is a lot closer to Gina Carano in "Haywire", than to anything in "Sucker Punch."
I'm sorry, but I find Anita's whole argument absurd.
Character tropes are perpetuated in video games regardless of gender. Just as Anita is complaining about the skewed representation of women in video games, she could easily argue the same for males. How reflective are beefcake, alpha-male characters such as Marcus Fenix, Nathan Drake, Master Chief, Kratos....(list is endless really) of real-life guys?
Umm. None of them. But WHO CARES?!?! You're playing a video game. It's escapism. It's fantasy...something you cannot experience in everyday life (which renders the whole outfit practicality argument completely void).
Maybe I'm a traitor to my gender, but I actually ENJOY almost every opportunity I have to play as a female in video game, because for the most part they kick major ass and they're hot. I even love Princess Peach.
Sorry Anita, but it makes me sad to think you've been given so much money to paint female gamers in a whiney, irrational light.
Character tropes are perpetuated in video games regardless of gender. Just as Anita is complaining about the skewed representation of women in video games, she could easily argue the same for males. How reflective are beefcake, alpha-male characters such as Marcus Fenix, Nathan Drake, Master Chief, Kratos....(list is endless really) of real-life guys?
Umm. None of them. But WHO CARES?!?! You're playing a video game. It's escapism. It's fantasy...something you cannot experience in everyday life (which renders the whole outfit practicality argument completely void).
Maybe I'm a traitor to my gender, but I actually ENJOY almost every opportunity I have to play as a female in video game, because for the most part they kick major ass and they're hot. I even love Princess Peach.
Sorry Anita, but it makes me sad to think you've been given so much money to paint female gamers in a whiney, irrational light.
I truly feel that the majority of her assessments are nothing more than that of a typical, under-informed internet ranter.....and that, especially with the examples listed above, she is simply reaching for anything and everything she can to make a point, even in cases where it is not relevant(her opinions on Zia and Kat, especially, show how troublingly misinformed she is on the games she is persecuting), and that she is simply doing anything she can to make an argument and gain attention wherever possible. It is most troubling because of how she is not only claiming to need a large amount of money to fund this work, but has also recieved a sizable amount MORE than her goal, and it isn't clear how or why she would ever need so much money for something like this; bloggers and other writers on the internet are formulating vastly more informed and concise opinions on the same or similar material, and do not require any outside funding to do it. The whole thing not only smells of greed, it is also clear that she isn't even putting a good amount of time and research into her work. I do take a personal problem with what she is doing because, not only is she requesting and taking money for a questionable cause, she is also misrepresenting and disrespecting games which she clearly hasn't taken enough time or effort to form an informed opinion on.
@Possible
you're holding double standards here. You want a character that is no different then a male, is treated as a male, and isn't called out for female issues... but then you want the game to address those issues at the same time. News flash, men and women, we're different. Nathan Drake is less likely to be raped by a group of hired guns then Laura. They are bringing a bit of reality to their scenarios and there is nothing wrong with that. Men and women don't go through the same struggles, and we aren't the same, we are different, beautifully different. That's what makes us work so well together, our differences come together and make us attracted to each other. Personally I wouldn't want to date a girl that acts the same as a dude(burps loudly, farts on the reg, etc), nor would I want to see her in a game unless that's her quark. What's so bad about women being portrayed as women and men being portrayed as men?
you're holding double standards here. You want a character that is no different then a male, is treated as a male, and isn't called out for female issues... but then you want the game to address those issues at the same time. News flash, men and women, we're different. Nathan Drake is less likely to be raped by a group of hired guns then Laura. They are bringing a bit of reality to their scenarios and there is nothing wrong with that. Men and women don't go through the same struggles, and we aren't the same, we are different, beautifully different. That's what makes us work so well together, our differences come together and make us attracted to each other. Personally I wouldn't want to date a girl that acts the same as a dude(burps loudly, farts on the reg, etc), nor would I want to see her in a game unless that's her quark. What's so bad about women being portrayed as women and men being portrayed as men?
@Levi Elwood Myers
Additionally, if there is a game where you can customize your character's appearance, I always want to be able to play as either a male or female character. So no more things like "you can't play a female character in Brink." Yes, I know this means you have to make more character models, but I think that's far from an unreasonable request. If you let me play as a character of my design, that "design" should include "sex."
Additionally, if there is a game where you can customize your character's appearance, I always want to be able to play as either a male or female character. So no more things like "you can't play a female character in Brink." Yes, I know this means you have to make more character models, but I think that's far from an unreasonable request. If you let me play as a character of my design, that "design" should include "sex."
I'm sorry, but everyone is tap-dancing around what her statements in that interview(and her series) really mean. The problem is that you Chris Carter had a point about how she was blatantly incorrect about what she was talking about for every single game example she gave. This should immediately send up red flags. Her responses in that interview are a clear example of how she cherry-picks EVERYTHING. She makes no mention of the man in Bastion being just "The Male" . . . and I mean he is literally "The Male", his name "The Kid." That's a blatant lie and she does need to ACCUSED of instigating. She needs to be held accountable, but no one seems willing to do that for some reason that escapes me. Also, she ignores all good, even when that good negates whatever bad she's about to discuss or make up simply so she has something negative to say about Men. Face it, she's a pathetic excuse for a social commentator or journalist and is an amoral propaganda pusher with an agenda. If she's so concerned about a positive portrayal of women, she'd be bringing up all the things Mr. Carter mentioned about these female characters. It's painfully clear that if she can't twist it enough for her agenda, she will outright ignore whole characters or aspects of those characters, like she did with Assassin's Creed, Kat, or the nymphs. I didn't know all that shit about the nymphs in Rayman and that all completely changes everything on that.
Short version: Fact -- Anita Sarkeesian deliberately and clearly cherry-picks what information she provides in order to inflate the issue into something much more severe than what it is while twisting and willing sexism into places where it doesn't exist. Sexism exists in a lot of places, but it doesn't change the fact that she still claims it to be where it is not.
Short version: Fact -- Anita Sarkeesian deliberately and clearly cherry-picks what information she provides in order to inflate the issue into something much more severe than what it is while twisting and willing sexism into places where it doesn't exist. Sexism exists in a lot of places, but it doesn't change the fact that she still claims it to be where it is not.
@Levi Elwood Myers
I never said I wanted a game to address female issues. I specifically said I did not want a game to address female specific issues unless it can do so in a matter that is not patronizing or offensive. We are a long way from being able to do that, just like we are a long way form being able to make games that address racial issues without being patronizing or offensive.
A female protagonist who is exactly the same as a male protagonist (except for maybe some different character animations, Femshep sits with her legs spread a bit much) is exactly what I would like to see in games.
I never said I wanted a game to address female issues. I specifically said I did not want a game to address female specific issues unless it can do so in a matter that is not patronizing or offensive. We are a long way from being able to do that, just like we are a long way form being able to make games that address racial issues without being patronizing or offensive.
A female protagonist who is exactly the same as a male protagonist (except for maybe some different character animations, Femshep sits with her legs spread a bit much) is exactly what I would like to see in games.
I don't get her criticisms of Bastion considering there are basically four characters in the entire game.
Also it's important to mention that Kat IMPROVES over the course of the game. She takes to her gravity powers very clumsily but as you level her up she moves more gracefully and doesn't spin out of control. Eventually she masters her power and makes perfect landings and everything.
I'm interested in the videos but her arguments sounds like she's jumping to conclusion. You don't have to look far to find submissive, weak women in video games but she's targeting some of the more powerful or relatively harmless portrayals in the medium.
Also it's important to mention that Kat IMPROVES over the course of the game. She takes to her gravity powers very clumsily but as you level her up she moves more gracefully and doesn't spin out of control. Eventually she masters her power and makes perfect landings and everything.
I'm interested in the videos but her arguments sounds like she's jumping to conclusion. You don't have to look far to find submissive, weak women in video games but she's targeting some of the more powerful or relatively harmless portrayals in the medium.
I wouldn't expect any kind of real "analysis" from someone with a personal agenda that has already made up her mind the whole world is out to get her and every other woman.
"Wear high heels while fighting?!? Are you crazy? How would I keep my balance? That is soooo unrealistic. Now please excuse me while I shoot fireballs from eyes and bolts of lightning from my ass."
Personally, I'm interested in seeing her videos but, criticisms of realism (or lack there of) in situations where everything is unrealistic are idiotic.
Personally, I'm interested in seeing her videos but, criticisms of realism (or lack there of) in situations where everything is unrealistic are idiotic.
@Possible
"someday we will be able to make games about specifically female issues"
"I never said I wanted a game to address female issues. I specifically said I did not want a game to address female specific issues"
These are the times I'm happy Destructoid doesn't have a edit button. What you want is awful and you are just as ignorant as that Anita chick, so go ahead and donate some of your money to her, sounds like you both support the same moronic thing. The kind of thing you want is not creative, healthy, or interesting in the slightest.
"someday we will be able to make games about specifically female issues"
"I never said I wanted a game to address female issues. I specifically said I did not want a game to address female specific issues"
These are the times I'm happy Destructoid doesn't have a edit button. What you want is awful and you are just as ignorant as that Anita chick, so go ahead and donate some of your money to her, sounds like you both support the same moronic thing. The kind of thing you want is not creative, healthy, or interesting in the slightest.
$160 thousand? Talk about a windfall! Let's face it: there's no way in hell filming herself playing games and talking is going to cost 160 thousand, so Anita's bank account will get a handsome boost. Not that there's anything wrong with that, and that's the beauty of the internet. Those who pledged to "advance the cause of women" or whatever can feel good about themselves and Anita walks away $100 thousand richer at the very least. Everybody is happy!
A woman who is just a reskinned model of a man? Thats all you want, seriously?
I direct you to Lightning in FFXIII. She is just femCloud. Trufax. Your wish was granted a couple years ago
I direct you to Lightning in FFXIII. She is just femCloud. Trufax. Your wish was granted a couple years ago
Ok, what I have got from all of this is its a bit "early days" since she hasn't produced her project yet.
So... so far, great article and great interview from before, kudos Destructoid.
However, lets take a step back and put bets down on her project's final product producing either truly engaging, mind-opening appeal or an absolutely trolled out trainwreck of ironic stereotyped drivel.
Personally, I hope Tommy Wiseau is somehow involved if the latter result happens.
So... so far, great article and great interview from before, kudos Destructoid.
However, lets take a step back and put bets down on her project's final product producing either truly engaging, mind-opening appeal or an absolutely trolled out trainwreck of ironic stereotyped drivel.
Personally, I hope Tommy Wiseau is somehow involved if the latter result happens.
@Levi Elwood Myers
How is "someday x is possible" the same as "I want x"?
I do not want a game to make a big deal about specifically female issues unless it can do so without being patronizing or offensive. I also do not believe that, in 2012, we are able to do so, so I don't even want anybody to try. I am saying this explicitly so you don't misconstrue what I'm saying. Someday when you can make a game that does a good job of addressing female specific issues, well maybe I'll buy that game and maybe I won't. It's not the first thing I'd want to play, but maybe it's good.
How is "someday x is possible" the same as "I want x"?
I do not want a game to make a big deal about specifically female issues unless it can do so without being patronizing or offensive. I also do not believe that, in 2012, we are able to do so, so I don't even want anybody to try. I am saying this explicitly so you don't misconstrue what I'm saying. Someday when you can make a game that does a good job of addressing female specific issues, well maybe I'll buy that game and maybe I won't. It's not the first thing I'd want to play, but maybe it's good.
And how does one become "good" at a thing without first fucking it up a bunch of times? That sort of thinking stifles progress.
Gaming, for those not in the know, is a hobby involving fantasy. Just like Boris Vallejo paintings. You don't get in Boris Vallejo's face and tell him to put clothes on his muscle-wenches or cover up a swordy-dude's nips.
But hey, she found a way to finance her hobby as effortlessly as possible. That's the American way, right? Happy 4th of July, folks.
But hey, she found a way to finance her hobby as effortlessly as possible. That's the American way, right? Happy 4th of July, folks.
As for the "tropes", I'll just say that if women really want equality they need to own up to it ALL the time and not just when it's convenient. I know I'll get a beating from the PC crowd, but too many women who cry about sexism are more than happy to use that very same sexism when it benefits them.
That approach may yield obvious short-term advantages, but in the end everything has a price. In the real world, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
That approach may yield obvious short-term advantages, but in the end everything has a price. In the real world, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
@Syn
I do, honestly, think that Commander Shepard is close to the perfect female protagonist in this day and age. If you cleaned up the character animations so that the male and female Shepards move and sit in a manner specific to their sex, you removed the "boobplate" from the heavy armor, and you did away with the "Hey Sweetheart" moments in the game (like when Harkin accosts you in Chora's Den, or the Batarian in ME2 who tells you that the strippers are auditioning in another room) you would essentially have the perfect female protagonist in Commander Shepard.
I do, honestly, think that Commander Shepard is close to the perfect female protagonist in this day and age. If you cleaned up the character animations so that the male and female Shepards move and sit in a manner specific to their sex, you removed the "boobplate" from the heavy armor, and you did away with the "Hey Sweetheart" moments in the game (like when Harkin accosts you in Chora's Den, or the Batarian in ME2 who tells you that the strippers are auditioning in another room) you would essentially have the perfect female protagonist in Commander Shepard.
@Syn
Games need to first become good at addressing mature serious issues that are not related to characteristics that people have that they did not choose and cannot change (e.g. race, sex, sexual orientation) before you can really start addressing those issues that some people face and others never will.
Like, you can make a game about poverty since anybody can be, or become poor. Let's see someone make a game that does a good job dealing with serious issues about poverty before we start worrying about games that do a good job dealing with serious issues about being black, or female, or bisexual.
I mean, we haven't even done the "War is really terrible" game well yet, and that's right in gaming's wheelhouse.
Games need to first become good at addressing mature serious issues that are not related to characteristics that people have that they did not choose and cannot change (e.g. race, sex, sexual orientation) before you can really start addressing those issues that some people face and others never will.
Like, you can make a game about poverty since anybody can be, or become poor. Let's see someone make a game that does a good job dealing with serious issues about poverty before we start worrying about games that do a good job dealing with serious issues about being black, or female, or bisexual.
I mean, we haven't even done the "War is really terrible" game well yet, and that's right in gaming's wheelhouse.
@sandie, why does sonic run at sonic speeds, why are there Pokémon, why does Mario (a plumber) fight turtle beasts by using acrobatics that no humanly possible fat man can do, how does Ryu use the hoduken. IT’S FANTASY AND DOES NOT REALLY NEED TO MAKE SENCE. A man can take a million bullets in cod and horses can climb mountain vertically in skyrim. I don’t see what the big fucking deal is with her shoes when the world of games is filled with fantastical powers that range from energy blasts to using flimsy ties as swords. that is the reason why her argument is so silly, because games don't need to be logical, its like logan, he can avoid the pain if he gets armor but he simply rushes in and heals later, makes logical sence... no but hey thats fine. i dont hear any complaints about the men that run around in noth but a cloth or the DBZ dudes that beat the clothing off eachother.
@PossibleCabbage: So if Kratos is okay because he's a male power fantasy because it allows the male player to be impossibly cut, powerful, and macho, which is okay, isn't Kat a female power fantasy by allowing the female to be skinny, attractive, powerful, and noble? Your logic justifying Kratos's design completely justifies Kat's design.
@General:I'm not against the cause that Anita claims to champion, but she's the absolutely worst possible person to champion the cause of equality as she doesn't apply logic to anything. Are you seriously trying to tell me that Mariah Carey's "All I Want For Christmas Is You" is sexist and a clear statement that all women need a man in order to be happy simply because she sings about her romantic affection and desire for another person? Affection and desire that's so deep towards a specific individual of an unspecified gender that her only concern on Christmas is having them? To me, that sounds like a pure sentiment more akin to forgoing any material desire in order to be with the one you love, man or woman, on Christmas because that's more important than any material gain. She also says it's borderline stalkerish if a guy covers the song, but if you're really for equality, then simply putting those words in a man's mouth shouldn't change the meaning of the song. She names a bunch of movies as well where, just for ending up with or wanting to be with a man, it's clearly embedding the "nasty little message" that all women need is a man. Just desiring to be with someone who happens to be a man does not say that at all. There is literally no way you can draw any of these conclusions when you take these pieces of entertainment for what they are and apply logic. This woman loves non-sequiturs.
Nevermind the fact that the movies she named all have a part of the story where the man has to win the woman back and prove that he's the one who NEEDS her, usually after he fails her in some regard. Let's also forget the fact that the men in all these films create a more impossible standard for men than the supposedly impossible standard for women. Seriously, the impossible image women are always saying they're brainwashed into needing to achieve pretty much always consists of primarily one criteria . . . be skinny. I don't think every woman has to be skinny or just because skinny women are being presented, it's saying that all women have to be that way, but men have it much worse in that department if you're gonna think about things that way. Not only does the image for us include being skinny, it involves six-pack abs and muscles, which is a lot harder to achieve than being skinny. Seriously, all the men in the films she names are skinny and/or very muscular while also being rich and successful, while also being macho stoic and tough, but also being sensitive and understanding. Yep, we're all supposed to have the abs of Matthew Mcconaughey or Ryan Gosling while being emotionless badasses in defense of justice and the women we love, but also being able to just completely flip that mentality around in an instant so we can be sensitive for the woman. The media standard for men is much harder to achieve, and that's a simple fact.
Don't believe me that she WILLS sexism into places in which it simply does not exist or think I'm lying about the Mariah Carey thing? Yeah, I would think I was lying to because how could someone be so blatantly ignorant of reality, right? Fear not, I will post sources.
Anita's video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpDnr2s9yxQ&list=UU7Edgk9RxP7Fm7vjQ1d-cDA&index=1&feature=plcp
In case my explanation wasn't clear enough or you want further insight, here's this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZdChfXasyQ&feature=youtu.be
Lastly . . . you try and tell me she was legitimate and honest after watching this video by her.
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbihPTgAql4
It's just the original post by her, but it has annotations pointing out all of the contradictions and false facts she uses throughout the video. Also open the description and follow the poster's link to his list of things that are wrong with her assessment and at what time they occur. He simply sticks to the facts. My favorite one is when she says the story and the setting are besides the point when it comes to the game . . . especially when she's going for a character analysis. How do you do an accurate character analysis while deliberately taking them out of the context of the fictional circumstances and environments they react to? I don't even like Bayonetta and I'm all for equality, but fuck . . . where's the integrity?
@General:I'm not against the cause that Anita claims to champion, but she's the absolutely worst possible person to champion the cause of equality as she doesn't apply logic to anything. Are you seriously trying to tell me that Mariah Carey's "All I Want For Christmas Is You" is sexist and a clear statement that all women need a man in order to be happy simply because she sings about her romantic affection and desire for another person? Affection and desire that's so deep towards a specific individual of an unspecified gender that her only concern on Christmas is having them? To me, that sounds like a pure sentiment more akin to forgoing any material desire in order to be with the one you love, man or woman, on Christmas because that's more important than any material gain. She also says it's borderline stalkerish if a guy covers the song, but if you're really for equality, then simply putting those words in a man's mouth shouldn't change the meaning of the song. She names a bunch of movies as well where, just for ending up with or wanting to be with a man, it's clearly embedding the "nasty little message" that all women need is a man. Just desiring to be with someone who happens to be a man does not say that at all. There is literally no way you can draw any of these conclusions when you take these pieces of entertainment for what they are and apply logic. This woman loves non-sequiturs.
Nevermind the fact that the movies she named all have a part of the story where the man has to win the woman back and prove that he's the one who NEEDS her, usually after he fails her in some regard. Let's also forget the fact that the men in all these films create a more impossible standard for men than the supposedly impossible standard for women. Seriously, the impossible image women are always saying they're brainwashed into needing to achieve pretty much always consists of primarily one criteria . . . be skinny. I don't think every woman has to be skinny or just because skinny women are being presented, it's saying that all women have to be that way, but men have it much worse in that department if you're gonna think about things that way. Not only does the image for us include being skinny, it involves six-pack abs and muscles, which is a lot harder to achieve than being skinny. Seriously, all the men in the films she names are skinny and/or very muscular while also being rich and successful, while also being macho stoic and tough, but also being sensitive and understanding. Yep, we're all supposed to have the abs of Matthew Mcconaughey or Ryan Gosling while being emotionless badasses in defense of justice and the women we love, but also being able to just completely flip that mentality around in an instant so we can be sensitive for the woman. The media standard for men is much harder to achieve, and that's a simple fact.
Don't believe me that she WILLS sexism into places in which it simply does not exist or think I'm lying about the Mariah Carey thing? Yeah, I would think I was lying to because how could someone be so blatantly ignorant of reality, right? Fear not, I will post sources.
Anita's video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpDnr2s9yxQ&list=UU7Edgk9RxP7Fm7vjQ1d-cDA&index=1&feature=plcp
In case my explanation wasn't clear enough or you want further insight, here's this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZdChfXasyQ&feature=youtu.be
Lastly . . . you try and tell me she was legitimate and honest after watching this video by her.
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbihPTgAql4
It's just the original post by her, but it has annotations pointing out all of the contradictions and false facts she uses throughout the video. Also open the description and follow the poster's link to his list of things that are wrong with her assessment and at what time they occur. He simply sticks to the facts. My favorite one is when she says the story and the setting are besides the point when it comes to the game . . . especially when she's going for a character analysis. How do you do an accurate character analysis while deliberately taking them out of the context of the fictional circumstances and environments they react to? I don't even like Bayonetta and I'm all for equality, but fuck . . . where's the integrity?
@Possible
Okay, with that final post I can see you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, nor do I think you really play games that much, and if you do, don't understand the message. People like you will always make something out of nothings, and even worse, try to censor art.
we haven't even done a"War is really terrible" game
You mean like all the Metal Gear Solids which you can avoid killing and the more you kill the more it comes back to haunt you? Huh, guess you "forgot" about that one. The issues that you say we aren't ready to touch on have already been touched on, and will continue to be. The way Laura was felt up, that's a real issue attractive women would fear if they were captured by a group of savage guys. They wouldn't just be like "huh, welp, let's just kill her." nah, they're savage, devoid of morals, and trapped on an island with an attractive woman, then that's going to be a issue for her, it doesn't condemn her for being a woman, it embraces it. You claim we aren't mature enough with these issues, but I ask, why not? We seem to be doing it correctly enough.
Okay, with that final post I can see you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, nor do I think you really play games that much, and if you do, don't understand the message. People like you will always make something out of nothings, and even worse, try to censor art.
we haven't even done a"War is really terrible" game
You mean like all the Metal Gear Solids which you can avoid killing and the more you kill the more it comes back to haunt you? Huh, guess you "forgot" about that one. The issues that you say we aren't ready to touch on have already been touched on, and will continue to be. The way Laura was felt up, that's a real issue attractive women would fear if they were captured by a group of savage guys. They wouldn't just be like "huh, welp, let's just kill her." nah, they're savage, devoid of morals, and trapped on an island with an attractive woman, then that's going to be a issue for her, it doesn't condemn her for being a woman, it embraces it. You claim we aren't mature enough with these issues, but I ask, why not? We seem to be doing it correctly enough.
For "War is really terrible" i would point you to the surprisingly well made and frequently disregarded campaign modes in the Call of Duty games.
Presently gaming's best attempt at handling such a thing.
Seems like you need to do more research as well. You say you want something to happen in the industry that you yourself cited an example for and ignored the one i posed.
These steps forward you seem to want are already happening without the help of misguided zealots on youtube.
Presently gaming's best attempt at handling such a thing.
Seems like you need to do more research as well. You say you want something to happen in the industry that you yourself cited an example for and ignored the one i posed.
These steps forward you seem to want are already happening without the help of misguided zealots on youtube.
The Call of Duty games do not do a very good job of portraying how terrible war really is. I expect anybody who says this seriously hasn't served in any current war, and doesn't know anybody who has.
I have several friends in the service, at least one of who attempted to kill himself while he was serving in Iraq, and it's their serious, sober testimony that Call of Duty does an efficient job glorifying war, but does a terrible job expressing what's awful about it.
I have several friends in the service, at least one of who attempted to kill himself while he was serving in Iraq, and it's their serious, sober testimony that Call of Duty does an efficient job glorifying war, but does a terrible job expressing what's awful about it.
An addendum to the above: I personally, feel that making a game about a war in which actual, living people suffered and lost friends is truly offensive. I'm not advocating for censorship, but I will not play or financially support something that I personally find offensive.
Quick correction, bringing up men as being objectified is a tired argument. A half-naked butch man wielding a flaming sword is empowering because physique, strength, and handsomeness are the ideals of a male fantasy. A woman in the same role is objectified for sex appeal and is still a male fantasy.
I don't agree with these criticisms at all but I'm tired of reading "If you want equality then blah blah blah men shouldn't be objectified either." Men WANT to be objectified. It's an empowering element that shows up in human literature since the dawn of time from powerful heroes like Beowulf to chivalrous knights like Sir Gawain to the crafty tricksters of African and Asian mythology to the chiseled pulp heroes, super heroes, and shirtless action heroes of American cinema. It's interesting to note that in literature, the downfall of man is when he's characterized as a woman. Hercules and Achilles were once depicted wearing women's clothing (with Hercules spinning thread while doing so) when they hit their low. Sir Gawain was criticized for lying in bed while his host was out hunting and gutting animals in a grisly (manly) fashion. Samson was a biblical figure who wrecked armies with a fucking jawbone: he was weakened when a woman cut his hair! The greatest way to insult a man wasn't to inflict bodily harm but to depict him with feminine qualities.
I don't agree with these criticisms at all but I'm tired of reading "If you want equality then blah blah blah men shouldn't be objectified either." Men WANT to be objectified. It's an empowering element that shows up in human literature since the dawn of time from powerful heroes like Beowulf to chivalrous knights like Sir Gawain to the crafty tricksters of African and Asian mythology to the chiseled pulp heroes, super heroes, and shirtless action heroes of American cinema. It's interesting to note that in literature, the downfall of man is when he's characterized as a woman. Hercules and Achilles were once depicted wearing women's clothing (with Hercules spinning thread while doing so) when they hit their low. Sir Gawain was criticized for lying in bed while his host was out hunting and gutting animals in a grisly (manly) fashion. Samson was a biblical figure who wrecked armies with a fucking jawbone: he was weakened when a woman cut his hair! The greatest way to insult a man wasn't to inflict bodily harm but to depict him with feminine qualities.
Interesting article but, like Sandie, I feel it talks around the point in many ways.
I haven't played the games in question so I'm working off my understanding from reading up, talking to people, and from my understanding and interpretation of Anita's (admittedly wilfully brief) opinions. That being said, there are a few points that stick out in my eyes.
You concede that the nymphs in Rayman are oversexualized and attribute this to their sexual nature in Greek mythology but I'm lead to believe the nymphs weren't always sexualized in the Rayman series. It strikes me as an interesting and possibly telling design decision, especially if their sexualization seems stand-outish from the game world. Again, I'm not familiar with the game first-hand so that's just an 'if'; it would be interesting to explore the game in that context.
The issue of design resurfaces with Gravity Rush. It strikes me as odd when people refer to the personal preferences of a fictional character to explain design choices, as if the former preceded the latter. Sure, sometimes that can be the case (e.g. "it didn't make sense for this character to act this way so we changed it around") but with regards to something like attire, it's fallacious to pretend a fictional character is real and allude to the non-existent agency of that character as validation of the dev's design choices in the same way you would defend a real person. The agency of Kat is conceived by the game's makers; when Kat says "I like dressing this way" what we're really seeing is the dev saying "I want Kat to like to dress this way."
I find fictional agency to be a very interesting philosophical area because of the questions it raises in this manner. That being said, the character of Kat sounds really interesting! If what you're saying is accurate, I wouldn't be surprised if she came up in the 'good examples of female characters' episode of the video series. ;)
I haven't played the games in question so I'm working off my understanding from reading up, talking to people, and from my understanding and interpretation of Anita's (admittedly wilfully brief) opinions. That being said, there are a few points that stick out in my eyes.
You concede that the nymphs in Rayman are oversexualized and attribute this to their sexual nature in Greek mythology but I'm lead to believe the nymphs weren't always sexualized in the Rayman series. It strikes me as an interesting and possibly telling design decision, especially if their sexualization seems stand-outish from the game world. Again, I'm not familiar with the game first-hand so that's just an 'if'; it would be interesting to explore the game in that context.
The issue of design resurfaces with Gravity Rush. It strikes me as odd when people refer to the personal preferences of a fictional character to explain design choices, as if the former preceded the latter. Sure, sometimes that can be the case (e.g. "it didn't make sense for this character to act this way so we changed it around") but with regards to something like attire, it's fallacious to pretend a fictional character is real and allude to the non-existent agency of that character as validation of the dev's design choices in the same way you would defend a real person. The agency of Kat is conceived by the game's makers; when Kat says "I like dressing this way" what we're really seeing is the dev saying "I want Kat to like to dress this way."
I find fictional agency to be a very interesting philosophical area because of the questions it raises in this manner. That being said, the character of Kat sounds really interesting! If what you're saying is accurate, I wouldn't be surprised if she came up in the 'good examples of female characters' episode of the video series. ;)
In somewhat response to @CaimDark + @SmackyButts said:
For the record, I had a discussion with several of my friends from Tokyo recently about female equality in modern society and the gradual emancipation of the male gender in Japan. I was arguing the various "tropes" of pop-cultural society in Japan promoted sexism and gender inequality with an off-balance of males compensating becoming more feminine in their role in society and females gradually taking a male role in place of this problem.
However, my female friends were quick to say although true, alot of females in society tend to purposely perpetuate/"promote" the stereotype and "problem" further (By my own experiences in the music industry, for "quick" Fame / Monetary gains), so I can agree with you - Its of course projects like Anita's, which are in the hope to educate those people to disuade them from such action.
Not saying it invalidates a debate of sexism in any form of artistic/entertainment medium such as videogames. However viewership isn't the core of the problem.
The main problem such activists as Anita Sarkeesian should instead target and focus on is the investors, publishers and marketers of the products which promote false and or negative stereotypes to both genders (Something Jim Sterling touched upon in his "Rape in Videogames" Jimquisition) - In layman's terms, go after the big target, not the small ones like the consumer - Remember that developers in major companies have to answer to many people who fill their pockets with cash in the end of the day, hence, a product riddled with premeditated falsehoods in some cases. In "their" terms, its called pandering to the market demographic for a sale.
In other words, all this shit has happened and continues to happen in Music, Film, TV, Videogames, Books, Plays/Musicals etc..basically anything with a media/entertainment edge to it.
Its freewill on both genders which create today's society and its freewill which will evolve or destroy its outcome...and with that, I am getting the fuck out of this cacophony of wall o' texts! Happy reading folks! x
For the record, I had a discussion with several of my friends from Tokyo recently about female equality in modern society and the gradual emancipation of the male gender in Japan. I was arguing the various "tropes" of pop-cultural society in Japan promoted sexism and gender inequality with an off-balance of males compensating becoming more feminine in their role in society and females gradually taking a male role in place of this problem.
However, my female friends were quick to say although true, alot of females in society tend to purposely perpetuate/"promote" the stereotype and "problem" further (By my own experiences in the music industry, for "quick" Fame / Monetary gains), so I can agree with you - Its of course projects like Anita's, which are in the hope to educate those people to disuade them from such action.
Not saying it invalidates a debate of sexism in any form of artistic/entertainment medium such as videogames. However viewership isn't the core of the problem.
The main problem such activists as Anita Sarkeesian should instead target and focus on is the investors, publishers and marketers of the products which promote false and or negative stereotypes to both genders (Something Jim Sterling touched upon in his "Rape in Videogames" Jimquisition) - In layman's terms, go after the big target, not the small ones like the consumer - Remember that developers in major companies have to answer to many people who fill their pockets with cash in the end of the day, hence, a product riddled with premeditated falsehoods in some cases. In "their" terms, its called pandering to the market demographic for a sale.
In other words, all this shit has happened and continues to happen in Music, Film, TV, Videogames, Books, Plays/Musicals etc..basically anything with a media/entertainment edge to it.
Its freewill on both genders which create today's society and its freewill which will evolve or destroy its outcome...and with that, I am getting the fuck out of this cacophony of wall o' texts! Happy reading folks! x
@Cow
So if that's a male fantasy, why do women bring up issue with being scantily dressed in video games when they do it in the real world? Almost every bit of their attire is sexually provocative. From people like lady gaga, to girls browsing around the mall. They don't want to be portrayed sexually, when a good majority of women do that themselves in public? I guess different rules apply in gaming.
So if that's a male fantasy, why do women bring up issue with being scantily dressed in video games when they do it in the real world? Almost every bit of their attire is sexually provocative. From people like lady gaga, to girls browsing around the mall. They don't want to be portrayed sexually, when a good majority of women do that themselves in public? I guess different rules apply in gaming.
@ZeniGeva
I absolutely concur that women are responsible for a good portion of the unreasonable standards and mistreatment of other women. Which is why it always surprises me when people get defensive when people discuss how we can treat and portray women in a more positive manner. Nobody's talking about what men need to stop doing to women in this context, people are talking about how artists need to better address and understand their audience.
Which is not to say that I am wronged when a video game or a comic book portays a female character in an unrealistic or overly sexualized context, so much so that doing so makes me less likely to want to buy or play/read that game or that comic.
The thing that we need to think about is less "wronging fictional characters" since they're fictional, and can take it, it's "how is this perceived by your audience" since gamers are not homogeneously heterosexual white males, even if that appears to be the perception of the industry sometimes.
Which is to say, my reaction to the new Tomb Raider game is "I have literally no interest in playing that" first and foremost.
I absolutely concur that women are responsible for a good portion of the unreasonable standards and mistreatment of other women. Which is why it always surprises me when people get defensive when people discuss how we can treat and portray women in a more positive manner. Nobody's talking about what men need to stop doing to women in this context, people are talking about how artists need to better address and understand their audience.
Which is not to say that I am wronged when a video game or a comic book portays a female character in an unrealistic or overly sexualized context, so much so that doing so makes me less likely to want to buy or play/read that game or that comic.
The thing that we need to think about is less "wronging fictional characters" since they're fictional, and can take it, it's "how is this perceived by your audience" since gamers are not homogeneously heterosexual white males, even if that appears to be the perception of the industry sometimes.
Which is to say, my reaction to the new Tomb Raider game is "I have literally no interest in playing that" first and foremost.
All I want to say is that anyone who thought that she was going to offer up good arguments was terribly mistaken.
But no, the internet ran to her rescue and threw money at her in spite of her being generally incapable of doing what she wanted to do. All the internet saw was someone with a noble goal being attacked.
News flash: You can defend someone without having to throw money at their cause. Nor does someone being verbally attacked necessarily mean that they're 100% correct either.
I once read someone ask why Extra Credit gets respect but she doesn't? Well, isn't it obvious? Extra Credit has proven over time that they do their discussions right. She has not. But no, we've just given her $160k for a video series that will absolutely be terrible.
This is where Kickstarter goes so terribly wrong. People get so invested into the cause they don't pay enough attention to who is in charge of the project. Anyone can promise great ideas and anyone can strut out a noble cause. Most people cannot execute though and Anita is, sadly, not one of the few who can execute well.
Hopefully the internet learns from this (it won't though...)
But no, the internet ran to her rescue and threw money at her in spite of her being generally incapable of doing what she wanted to do. All the internet saw was someone with a noble goal being attacked.
News flash: You can defend someone without having to throw money at their cause. Nor does someone being verbally attacked necessarily mean that they're 100% correct either.
I once read someone ask why Extra Credit gets respect but she doesn't? Well, isn't it obvious? Extra Credit has proven over time that they do their discussions right. She has not. But no, we've just given her $160k for a video series that will absolutely be terrible.
This is where Kickstarter goes so terribly wrong. People get so invested into the cause they don't pay enough attention to who is in charge of the project. Anyone can promise great ideas and anyone can strut out a noble cause. Most people cannot execute though and Anita is, sadly, not one of the few who can execute well.
Hopefully the internet learns from this (it won't though...)
To Agent9, and I assume the hundred other people who said "omg it's fantasy give it a rest", it's not just that it's impractical. It's not just that it's quite silly to have someone running around, flying, and fighting in heals. I may as well complain that she wears the same clothes every day for what is apparently years, right!
It's because the reason she has those shoes, and all of her outfits, is because it's meant to make your rocket take off. Sexy maid outfits, sexy schoolgirl outfits, sexy nazi outfits, sexy maid outfits. It only exists because it's meant to make her more attractive, because they believe that guys will only play a game with a woman if they want to pork her.
That's the real problem, and it betrays her being such a good character. She's ever single thing that Chris says in the article, and she's very interesting, I want to spend more time with her. But that's totally ruined by the way they have her dress, it undermines all the character development because the studio thinks that you don't care about that, it shows they're interested in parading her around.
This isn't so much a problem with the initial design. Yeah, there's high heels, but I really don't have as much of a problem as I make out to be saying here. It's worthy of exactly what Anita gave it, a silly little one-line throw out. But I do have a problem with all the DLC outfits, and the way their marketed. Think about it, every DLC pack is sold as two missions and an outfit, and the marketing isn't that it can "extend your gameplay" or "advance the story". It's about parading Kat around in the sexy outfit of the week (fucking maid's outfit!)
Why don't I complain about the fantasy elements of Mario being so athletic and still fat, or of Ryu's magical fireball moves? Because those elements don't actively undermine what they're saying, don't insult and alienate the women who play it, and their existence doesn't show how little the system cares about these things.
It's because the reason she has those shoes, and all of her outfits, is because it's meant to make your rocket take off. Sexy maid outfits, sexy schoolgirl outfits, sexy nazi outfits, sexy maid outfits. It only exists because it's meant to make her more attractive, because they believe that guys will only play a game with a woman if they want to pork her.
That's the real problem, and it betrays her being such a good character. She's ever single thing that Chris says in the article, and she's very interesting, I want to spend more time with her. But that's totally ruined by the way they have her dress, it undermines all the character development because the studio thinks that you don't care about that, it shows they're interested in parading her around.
This isn't so much a problem with the initial design. Yeah, there's high heels, but I really don't have as much of a problem as I make out to be saying here. It's worthy of exactly what Anita gave it, a silly little one-line throw out. But I do have a problem with all the DLC outfits, and the way their marketed. Think about it, every DLC pack is sold as two missions and an outfit, and the marketing isn't that it can "extend your gameplay" or "advance the story". It's about parading Kat around in the sexy outfit of the week (fucking maid's outfit!)
Why don't I complain about the fantasy elements of Mario being so athletic and still fat, or of Ryu's magical fireball moves? Because those elements don't actively undermine what they're saying, don't insult and alienate the women who play it, and their existence doesn't show how little the system cares about these things.
My problem is still with the amount of money she asked for in the first place. You DO NOT need $6000 dollars to make an internet video series or do research. Hell, most masters and PhD students in a college environment don't even get that much to their research. It's not cool AT ALL to insult her personally, but I think were are more than allowed to mock the project itself and that she got money for this.
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