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I PMed you already with this reply but I'll go again, your blog simply shows the holes in her arguments and her lack of understanding of the very subject matter she preaches, her videos show this a lot to.
I felt her assessment of Bastion worried me about what she considers to be a trope demeaning women. Zia was an amazing character, much more fleshed out than "The Kid" and was heavily implied to be a strong individual.
Someone mentioned it already on the c-blogs, but I really think that she should attempt to make a video game with the money that she has received. What is her idea of a game that does not demean or belittle women? I am genuinely curious. Picking examples of "bad" depictions is one thing, but what can be done to progress the debate? I would think that creating an example of a game that does not demean women would be a greater benefit towards progressing the debate.
Someone mentioned it already on the c-blogs, but I really think that she should attempt to make a video game with the money that she has received. What is her idea of a game that does not demean or belittle women? I am genuinely curious. Picking examples of "bad" depictions is one thing, but what can be done to progress the debate? I would think that creating an example of a game that does not demean women would be a greater benefit towards progressing the debate.
I've already stated my thoughts on the comments in the article, but you've pretty much said what I'm thinking.
Maybe I'm losing something from the context of just words on a screen; for all I know she could have been joking on some of these seemingly egregious errors (not knowing Zia's name or backstory in Bastion, not knowing anything about Gravity Rush's story or main character).
The way it READS though, that worries me. It reads like she did not play these games long enough to critically analyze them and is giving a somewhat knee-jerk reaction.
I think her series has great potential, but from what I've READ she's boiling things down to black and white. And these are totally not black and white issues.
Maybe I'm losing something from the context of just words on a screen; for all I know she could have been joking on some of these seemingly egregious errors (not knowing Zia's name or backstory in Bastion, not knowing anything about Gravity Rush's story or main character).
The way it READS though, that worries me. It reads like she did not play these games long enough to critically analyze them and is giving a somewhat knee-jerk reaction.
I think her series has great potential, but from what I've READ she's boiling things down to black and white. And these are totally not black and white issues.
Even if it comes from a place of good intentions weak arguments such as these are only going to hurt her cause in the long run. They obviously show a lack of fact checking -- something that she should probably do at least a modicum of before slagging something off with such superficial, slapdash analysis. I sincerely hope that her project in full addresses these issues with the depth and delicacy they deserve given the importance of the issue and the number of people that entrusted mass quantities of their hard earned dollars in her. If not, I fear this will add fuel to the fire for both sides and create larger, angrier mobs of people that will beat this issue to death until no-one cares anymore and the status quo prevails.
thank you for, not only the great counter points but also for being the most adult person in these conversations (together with shinta)
it's funny how you tell us this is not an attack on anita
while i felt this was going to be a defense.
then i read the entire article. very balanced
let's just say: it's good to have you here.
it's funny how you tell us this is not an attack on anita
while i felt this was going to be a defense.
then i read the entire article. very balanced
let's just say: it's good to have you here.
Also Chris, I just realized the other day that you are Magnalon.
Apparently, I am pretty slow at deducing these things. Even though it is right there in your column about you.
Apparently, I am pretty slow at deducing these things. Even though it is right there in your column about you.
There are a lot of things that worry me about Sarkeesian's project, but you've brought up kind of a big one. It sounds to me like she's not doing any research on these games or characters, or that she's not really getting very involved in the games she's playing. If her video series hopes to be taken seriously at all, she has to start being way more thorough in her research and her gaming. You can't just run through a game as quickly as you can and base all of your arguments on appearances. It's just going to sound like you don't have any idea what you're talking about, which at this point, it really sounds like she doesn't. I hope she can prove me wrong, or else I'm going to feel really bad for all the people who donated money to her.
Damn fine write up Chris. That was my biggest problem with the article. All her examples showed a distinct lack of knowledge on what she was talking about. THIS is the person doing a tropes about women series? THIS is the person trying to act like she is speaking for every female? No, no and just no. Like I said, I want to see discussions such as this (and really any discussions at all) featuring REAL female gamers. Not someone who watched a trailer or played a game for an hour without paying any actual attention.
Nice write up, MagnaChris. Regardless of her findings and the tenants of feminism and it's various interpretation, I have some concern that she may lack the context to really speak to the gaming side, and far and feather good titles out of simple ignorance, and many will accept her word as the final truth, because she has a YouTube channel dammit. I'd love it if you and other staff more counterpoint pieces as she releases her series, but I wouldn't expect anyone to take that one. I have a feeling her series will launch a great many irrational comments and posts from supporters and detractors alike, and such posts on a higher profile site like this would become a beacon for more nonsense.
That summarizes my unease and issues with this project quite succinctly, Mr. Carter. Those examples in the interview did give me great pause because they weren't entirely factual, which at best indicates poor research/paying attention skills. Very worrisome. Also that video on Bayonetta someone linked me to earlier where she gets some basic things about the game wrong. I don't doubt there ARE problems to be found in many of our beloved games, though I would point out racial portrayals before women honestly, but it doesn't help anything to get factual points significantly wrong or blow them out of context.
We'll see, I guess.
We'll see, I guess.
Yea that comment about Kat wearing high heels really ticked me off. Thank you for this awesome blog mag. You are a both a gentleman and a scholar!
Alright, I've logged in on my desktop for the sole reason of fapping this c-blog. Sweet jesus, look at those typos in my other comment..
Regardless, there is a question that begs asking. If Stephen Beirne's softball, borderline sycophantic interview is front page material, why is this relegated to a c-blog? It's quite more thorough than much of what makes it on the front page, to be fair.
Is there an unofficial Dtoid position involved here where because past incidents with certain staff twitter feeds, that Dtoid shall not be seen taking any issue with Ms. Sarkeesian's work? Because Dtoid treading lightly on PC egg shells isn't the Dtoid I've grown to love over the years and it would be a real shame to see the site loose it's edge.
Regardless, there is a question that begs asking. If Stephen Beirne's softball, borderline sycophantic interview is front page material, why is this relegated to a c-blog? It's quite more thorough than much of what makes it on the front page, to be fair.
Is there an unofficial Dtoid position involved here where because past incidents with certain staff twitter feeds, that Dtoid shall not be seen taking any issue with Ms. Sarkeesian's work? Because Dtoid treading lightly on PC egg shells isn't the Dtoid I've grown to love over the years and it would be a real shame to see the site loose it's edge.
"The Female" example did bother me. Not only was Zia one of the more fleshed out characters in Bastion (Next to nothing is known about the Kid and Rucks had to have a DLC to have a background to his story), but she is that strong independent character. And Zia's Theme is one of the best songs on that album.
What I have noticed in these articles about Feminism and gaming is the lack of anyone talking about Red Dead Redemption. I thought Bonnie MacFarlane and Abigail Marston were both incredibly strong characters. They both have had hard lives and horrible things happen to them and yet they continued on.
What I have noticed in these articles about Feminism and gaming is the lack of anyone talking about Red Dead Redemption. I thought Bonnie MacFarlane and Abigail Marston were both incredibly strong characters. They both have had hard lives and horrible things happen to them and yet they continued on.
This was an interesting article, I consider myself a feminist but that doesn't mean I believe women are free of scrutiny.
It seems like she's running through the games and taking the female characters at face value, which is not at all how this should be addressed. Maybe she just wanted to give a quick overview instead of revealing her analysis before she could publish it.
Rayman is a fantastic game; I loved it as a kid. You mention that the over sexualization of the nymphs is a fair assessment, and it is. She is specifically attacking the over sexualization by mentioning the "busty" nymphs and after comparing the change, the new nymphs are a huge misrepresentation. Let women create man, HUGE, huge, huge movement I applaud. However, this is only possible when their measurements are more drastic than Barbie's. Seeing how nymphs used to look like http://www.atariage.com/Jaguar/screenshots/s_Rayman_8.jpg and now look like and now look like
http://gamerate.net/img/games/1076/big1.jpg? That's a troubling issue.
Straight up, google image search "Rayman Origins", that's the fourth result. A lovely and perverted image of Rayman blowing Betilla's skirt up and taking a peak. It's really awesome that the nymphs are a core part of the game and that they create Rayman, however the over sexualization is a major set back. "Yes, we created you, but we're still your eye candy. Who cares that we're practically your mothers."
I have Bastion on my computer, just waiting for me to upgrade my OS. I'll wait for my comments on this one, but I kind of like the idea of a character that seems helpless but ends up taking saving of herself. That's a huge step towards breaking gender roles. I would also consider that depth.
Kat: sounds like a total bad ass. I have a hard time arguing against her choosing to fight in heels, even though it's far from practical. Howeer, neither is fighting in a tux which also happens in games. If she's doing all this fighting without her super human abilities, fighting in heels is far less reasonable. Oh no, a shoe argument. That's the worst I can come up with. There are bigger fish to fry. As for her knees? Let me think of every parkour game I've ever played featuring a male character. What's fair game for males is fair game for females. In movies, no armor is ridiculous. There are countless games where the men are not wearing armor and are still badasses. As long as Kat isn't over-sexualized, there really isn't any argument here.
Okay, I love the Assassins Creed series. You are very much right that she didn't bring up any of the strong amazing female characters you mention. She also didn't mention what bothers her about Assassins Creed other than women in the game frequently disappoint her. Honestly, I too was disappointed at first when we first went to the brothel and learned to hide in crowds. I then rationalized it with, in the medieval ages, women had no power, so using what power they have to their advantage is far smarter than openly fighting oppression where killing is easier to get away with.
The pathetic wooing characteristics of most women in the game were then overcome by the few amazingly strong and powerful women you come in contact with. I personally think that the positives outweigh the negatives, but I would like to hear what she has to say. Even give her the chance to give games their kudo points as well.
However, in Assassins Creed 1 and 2, the number of pathetic wooing greatly outweighs the number of badass women, which leaves a possible impression of "most women cannot be a badass". This is not the case in Brotherhood where you do have female assassins, as you pointed out. Maybe she was unlucky and wasn't able to recruit a bunch of female assassins. If that is the case, it's an analysis likely on a small sample size that should've been expanded.
Another point I can make from a feminist point of view is focus on female stories. I absolutely love that your final picture is from Metroid, the prime example of a female story. By female story, I mean a story that is not focused on men. It’s hard to find this in movies as well, and instead of going on an analysis about how bad this is in movies and repeat someone else’s work, I shall direct you to a feminist frequency video: http://youtu.be/PH8JuizIXw8. I believe that is Anita in the video and I don’t think she’s unfair in her assessment, yet it is possible that this is a similar standpoint she will take.
The final and conclusive point I can make for Anita is that most people are not serious gamers. In some scenarios, it is better to take the shallow analysis because of the subconscious effect images play on the human mind, similar to movies using placement advertising. This is the case with Rayman. Most will look at an image of the nymph and not even care about all the underlying feministic qualities in the game. In Bastion, no assumption can be made because Zia is not over sexualized. However, most “gamers” rush through games with no care to the story line and will only see her as a damsel in distress with no depth. If they aren’t paying attention, it seems like the impression is, “Oh she’s not here? I guess the game creators moved her for whatever reason. Chase the damsel!” Unfortunately, this makes up a decent portion of gamers. It’d be nice if Zia obviously saves herself. Shoe argument – eeh; Assassins Creed – weighing the pros and cons, which ends up more positive.
Thanks for the read.
It seems like she's running through the games and taking the female characters at face value, which is not at all how this should be addressed. Maybe she just wanted to give a quick overview instead of revealing her analysis before she could publish it.
Rayman is a fantastic game; I loved it as a kid. You mention that the over sexualization of the nymphs is a fair assessment, and it is. She is specifically attacking the over sexualization by mentioning the "busty" nymphs and after comparing the change, the new nymphs are a huge misrepresentation. Let women create man, HUGE, huge, huge movement I applaud. However, this is only possible when their measurements are more drastic than Barbie's. Seeing how nymphs used to look like http://www.atariage.com/Jaguar/screenshots/s_Rayman_8.jpg and now look like and now look like
http://gamerate.net/img/games/1076/big1.jpg? That's a troubling issue.
Straight up, google image search "Rayman Origins", that's the fourth result. A lovely and perverted image of Rayman blowing Betilla's skirt up and taking a peak. It's really awesome that the nymphs are a core part of the game and that they create Rayman, however the over sexualization is a major set back. "Yes, we created you, but we're still your eye candy. Who cares that we're practically your mothers."
I have Bastion on my computer, just waiting for me to upgrade my OS. I'll wait for my comments on this one, but I kind of like the idea of a character that seems helpless but ends up taking saving of herself. That's a huge step towards breaking gender roles. I would also consider that depth.
Kat: sounds like a total bad ass. I have a hard time arguing against her choosing to fight in heels, even though it's far from practical. Howeer, neither is fighting in a tux which also happens in games. If she's doing all this fighting without her super human abilities, fighting in heels is far less reasonable. Oh no, a shoe argument. That's the worst I can come up with. There are bigger fish to fry. As for her knees? Let me think of every parkour game I've ever played featuring a male character. What's fair game for males is fair game for females. In movies, no armor is ridiculous. There are countless games where the men are not wearing armor and are still badasses. As long as Kat isn't over-sexualized, there really isn't any argument here.
Okay, I love the Assassins Creed series. You are very much right that she didn't bring up any of the strong amazing female characters you mention. She also didn't mention what bothers her about Assassins Creed other than women in the game frequently disappoint her. Honestly, I too was disappointed at first when we first went to the brothel and learned to hide in crowds. I then rationalized it with, in the medieval ages, women had no power, so using what power they have to their advantage is far smarter than openly fighting oppression where killing is easier to get away with.
The pathetic wooing characteristics of most women in the game were then overcome by the few amazingly strong and powerful women you come in contact with. I personally think that the positives outweigh the negatives, but I would like to hear what she has to say. Even give her the chance to give games their kudo points as well.
However, in Assassins Creed 1 and 2, the number of pathetic wooing greatly outweighs the number of badass women, which leaves a possible impression of "most women cannot be a badass". This is not the case in Brotherhood where you do have female assassins, as you pointed out. Maybe she was unlucky and wasn't able to recruit a bunch of female assassins. If that is the case, it's an analysis likely on a small sample size that should've been expanded.
Another point I can make from a feminist point of view is focus on female stories. I absolutely love that your final picture is from Metroid, the prime example of a female story. By female story, I mean a story that is not focused on men. It’s hard to find this in movies as well, and instead of going on an analysis about how bad this is in movies and repeat someone else’s work, I shall direct you to a feminist frequency video: http://youtu.be/PH8JuizIXw8. I believe that is Anita in the video and I don’t think she’s unfair in her assessment, yet it is possible that this is a similar standpoint she will take.
The final and conclusive point I can make for Anita is that most people are not serious gamers. In some scenarios, it is better to take the shallow analysis because of the subconscious effect images play on the human mind, similar to movies using placement advertising. This is the case with Rayman. Most will look at an image of the nymph and not even care about all the underlying feministic qualities in the game. In Bastion, no assumption can be made because Zia is not over sexualized. However, most “gamers” rush through games with no care to the story line and will only see her as a damsel in distress with no depth. If they aren’t paying attention, it seems like the impression is, “Oh she’s not here? I guess the game creators moved her for whatever reason. Chase the damsel!” Unfortunately, this makes up a decent portion of gamers. It’d be nice if Zia obviously saves herself. Shoe argument – eeh; Assassins Creed – weighing the pros and cons, which ends up more positive.
Thanks for the read.
Well stated!
While I think there's some merit in reviewing these depictions at face value, this totally isn't the community's first dance with the topic. If all that's going to be done is a public review and analysis of the most face value associations, it just seems like a HUGE waste of money and effort. I think what would be great to come out of this is getting down and dirty with the full package of what these characters represent. If it turns up that these characters that we value, with all things considered, are not as great as we consider them to be, ok cool. Seeing this turnout to be a well researched and well presented end product is what everyone is hoping for.
What I would love for someone to get into is solutions, again, since pointing out tropes has become such a common thing in internet communication. How do we get more women making games, on the creative front? How do we get the point across that we want interesting/odd/abnormal/supernormal/freakshow/non-trope/anti-trope female characters in games as consumers? How do we fund interesting projects by and about women in games?
As a soon to be father and hobbyist designer, I'd like to see all this discourse become something productive and functional.
While I think there's some merit in reviewing these depictions at face value, this totally isn't the community's first dance with the topic. If all that's going to be done is a public review and analysis of the most face value associations, it just seems like a HUGE waste of money and effort. I think what would be great to come out of this is getting down and dirty with the full package of what these characters represent. If it turns up that these characters that we value, with all things considered, are not as great as we consider them to be, ok cool. Seeing this turnout to be a well researched and well presented end product is what everyone is hoping for.
What I would love for someone to get into is solutions, again, since pointing out tropes has become such a common thing in internet communication. How do we get more women making games, on the creative front? How do we get the point across that we want interesting/odd/abnormal/supernormal/freakshow/non-trope/anti-trope female characters in games as consumers? How do we fund interesting projects by and about women in games?
As a soon to be father and hobbyist designer, I'd like to see all this discourse become something productive and functional.
WELL since you are ASKING.. may I introduce you to some fantastic organizations specifically dedicated to this cause. The Society of Women Engineers is an organization for anyone who supports women in engineering and would like to promote more women in engineering, http://societyofwomenengineers.swe.org/. There is also the Grace Hopper organization - dedicated to the first woman in computing http://gracehopper.org/.
The key is encouragement and recruiting girls before society can affect them in such a way that they believe that they are bad at math for no other reason than they shouldn't try. This is a huge issue of it's own and while that sentence is shallow and assumptuous, the focus is getting them into science while they are young.
Another way to do this is by doing just what we are doing now: discussing depictions. The first step is recognizing the problem exists. Then why it is a problem, and how it affects society. These images subconsciously affect everyone. Over sexualization sends an underlying message of, "to be desired, you need to look this way." One or two would be easy to ignore, however when it happens in the masses that it does, it teaches a norm. It also teaches that this should be the priority of every girl and woman.
So while these societies are excellent for getting women into the math and sciences, we need help from the male dominated fields to recognize what unintentionally discourages females. Get the word out there, make everyone aware, get it to the top, and make the environment more welcoming to the female colleague.
Check it out and find more, please. Thank you for the compliment and asking.
The key is encouragement and recruiting girls before society can affect them in such a way that they believe that they are bad at math for no other reason than they shouldn't try. This is a huge issue of it's own and while that sentence is shallow and assumptuous, the focus is getting them into science while they are young.
Another way to do this is by doing just what we are doing now: discussing depictions. The first step is recognizing the problem exists. Then why it is a problem, and how it affects society. These images subconsciously affect everyone. Over sexualization sends an underlying message of, "to be desired, you need to look this way." One or two would be easy to ignore, however when it happens in the masses that it does, it teaches a norm. It also teaches that this should be the priority of every girl and woman.
So while these societies are excellent for getting women into the math and sciences, we need help from the male dominated fields to recognize what unintentionally discourages females. Get the word out there, make everyone aware, get it to the top, and make the environment more welcoming to the female colleague.
Check it out and find more, please. Thank you for the compliment and asking.
Like I said in my comment of the interview, Anita seems like the kind of person who is just looking for an argument, taking any opportunity to try and interpret something as sexist or misogynist. And while it's good to have people questioning things and keeping others in check... that kind of approach to things gets annoying and old.
If nothing else, you've provided a very fair view for someone without context to the situation. Great write Magnalon.
@Amy
Thanks a lot for your insight! I really appreciate you taking the time to discuss in length what you thought, and I'll check out the links you provided. Basically, this is the sort of discussion I had hoped would come from this!
@Everyone else
Thanks for reading! As many of you have said, I hope that in the finished product, some of the above counterpoints and in-depth research is present.
Thanks a lot for your insight! I really appreciate you taking the time to discuss in length what you thought, and I'll check out the links you provided. Basically, this is the sort of discussion I had hoped would come from this!
@Everyone else
Thanks for reading! As many of you have said, I hope that in the finished product, some of the above counterpoints and in-depth research is present.
an EXCELLENT blog.
I think part of the issue is that there is absolutely no way she can play enough games to get a sense of the roles of females in video games. For one thing, she will be missing out on context. Playing a game that came out in the 90's won't have the context of that time and will be seen through a different lens than gamers experienced at that time.
Also there is a time factor... I have 210 hours in Skyrim, over 300 hours in Oblivion, I've played all the Assassin's Creed games, I have over 1600 hours playing MAG online and around 800 playing Warhawk online... I've played the Bioshock series, Tomb Raider series, Baldur's Gate series, so many games that the list would take up pages and pages and pages - gamers game. They have been gaming heavily for years - I just don't think there is any possible way for her to play catch up even if she just stuck to current gen games. All she can really hope to do is get a peripheral feel for various games, and chances are strong that she'll miss out on many of the smaller gems (like Kingdom of Paradise which had some wonderful female characters!).
I think that people are somewhat overrating her video series. She's a feminist media critic and even in the world of feminism there are many deep divides regarding the representation of women, so she isn't even a voice for an overall feminist viewpoint. She will do videos - the same as Jim does his Jimquisitions or that Yahtzee does his Zero Punctuation videos. They may entertain, they may inform, they may evoke conversation... but hopefully nobody regards her videos as any input on what women want from video games or how female characters should be represented in games. She herself doesn't represent herself as a voice for women, but the public seems to have this perception and that her video series will "change gaming", and as noted on her web site, she is already being consulted with by some developers. To me, this is much more disturbing than the fact that she is doing a web series. She seems to have had little impact on other media she has spent time analyzing, and frankly from what I've seen of her previous videos, they are entertaining and though-provoking but certainly not very analytical... in fact they seem quite fluffy and rather silly (though again, they are entertaining, in the same way that Jim's stuff is entertaining, though frankly I think Jim is even more analytical than she is).
She has a unique viewpoint and it's an interesting one... but it is a unique viewpoint - no different from the multitude of other unique viewpoints out there, so I hope people take her views in context and don't give them more credence than they deserve.
I wish her the best of luck in her series...and hopefully they might provide a starting point for conversation... rather than a blueprint for change.
I think part of the issue is that there is absolutely no way she can play enough games to get a sense of the roles of females in video games. For one thing, she will be missing out on context. Playing a game that came out in the 90's won't have the context of that time and will be seen through a different lens than gamers experienced at that time.
Also there is a time factor... I have 210 hours in Skyrim, over 300 hours in Oblivion, I've played all the Assassin's Creed games, I have over 1600 hours playing MAG online and around 800 playing Warhawk online... I've played the Bioshock series, Tomb Raider series, Baldur's Gate series, so many games that the list would take up pages and pages and pages - gamers game. They have been gaming heavily for years - I just don't think there is any possible way for her to play catch up even if she just stuck to current gen games. All she can really hope to do is get a peripheral feel for various games, and chances are strong that she'll miss out on many of the smaller gems (like Kingdom of Paradise which had some wonderful female characters!).
I think that people are somewhat overrating her video series. She's a feminist media critic and even in the world of feminism there are many deep divides regarding the representation of women, so she isn't even a voice for an overall feminist viewpoint. She will do videos - the same as Jim does his Jimquisitions or that Yahtzee does his Zero Punctuation videos. They may entertain, they may inform, they may evoke conversation... but hopefully nobody regards her videos as any input on what women want from video games or how female characters should be represented in games. She herself doesn't represent herself as a voice for women, but the public seems to have this perception and that her video series will "change gaming", and as noted on her web site, she is already being consulted with by some developers. To me, this is much more disturbing than the fact that she is doing a web series. She seems to have had little impact on other media she has spent time analyzing, and frankly from what I've seen of her previous videos, they are entertaining and though-provoking but certainly not very analytical... in fact they seem quite fluffy and rather silly (though again, they are entertaining, in the same way that Jim's stuff is entertaining, though frankly I think Jim is even more analytical than she is).
She has a unique viewpoint and it's an interesting one... but it is a unique viewpoint - no different from the multitude of other unique viewpoints out there, so I hope people take her views in context and don't give them more credence than they deserve.
I wish her the best of luck in her series...and hopefully they might provide a starting point for conversation... rather than a blueprint for change.
So she's a feminist and not a gamer. Makes you wonder why she's even bothering with games when she doesn't even play them all the way through. It's like having someone who knows little about movies beyond what she enjoys and then blasting anything.beyond that scope. I dunno, I didn't want to chime in on the front page but all in all this women is just talking straight out if her ass and we are giving her a podium to do it. Hopefully she fails in whatever it is she is trying to "achieve" if, for nothing else, to save herself from a little embarrassment.
Great write-up! I've been following this story closely. It does seem to me that Anita has a lot of catching up to do with gaming and that bothers me. I saw on her twitter feed that she purchased 100s of games recently for this project. Another thing that worries me is I hope everyone realizes she is not speaking for all women, as she's certainly not speaking for me.
While i reject the way the haters expressed their distrust for her cause or rather the disingenuous way feminist leaders and groups usually present it, this is exactly what most where worried about, in essence you have proved that their take on things comes down to take whatever superficial element she can from female characters and spin it in the most negative way possible as long as it validates her point of view.
Chris, have you considered doing an in depth analysis of each ep once they get a release? would be nice to have someone with street cred that she simply can label a hater or misogynist to squirm out of accountability.
Chris, have you considered doing an in depth analysis of each ep once they get a release? would be nice to have someone with street cred that she simply can label a hater or misogynist to squirm out of accountability.
Actually, on thinking things over, I don't know that she really needs to play the games well or even play them at all. She's essentially a media critic and it might be more interesting to see the perception of someone who doesn't play a lot of games. She would be giving her opinion on her perception of how these female characters are portrayed from the viewpoint of the more general public. Most of the stuff written about games is by avid gamers who play the game and either really loved it or hated it... it might be more interesting to see the game from point of view of simply being "media" and nothing else.
In all honesty, I think she's in a bit of a lose/lose situation anyway. Look on any game's forums and you'll find people arguing about the interpretation of pretty much any game character. Devs can't really put much stock in her opinions because she is looking at old tropes which they already realize exist... I guess part of the problem is that the gaming community is looking at this issue as "gamers" and maybe we need to back off and think of this more as just a feminist examining another form of media - a unique viewpoint of someone looking over the media as a whole.
In all honesty, I think she's in a bit of a lose/lose situation anyway. Look on any game's forums and you'll find people arguing about the interpretation of pretty much any game character. Devs can't really put much stock in her opinions because she is looking at old tropes which they already realize exist... I guess part of the problem is that the gaming community is looking at this issue as "gamers" and maybe we need to back off and think of this more as just a feminist examining another form of media - a unique viewpoint of someone looking over the media as a whole.
A fair and thorough response, and the kind of thing I really want to see more of in the gaming community. Not attacks, not harassment. Just debate. Reasonable, intelligent debate.
We CAN discuss these issues without flinging names and mounting accusations. This was a great example of that.
We CAN discuss these issues without flinging names and mounting accusations. This was a great example of that.
2 things I'm curious about her project. Why did she need $6000 to do what she has already done before for free and what is she going with all the money she has received? This whole thing is something that was a bit pointless in the first place and has now gotten way more attention than it deserved.
Honestly one of the only female characters I've found really interesting through the years and have intentionally gone outside the gender paradigms is Hammer from Fable 2.
I'll just leave this here:
http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/DanielCampbell/something-about-sex-stop-buying-with-your-junk--168854.phtml
I'll just leave this here:
http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/DanielCampbell/something-about-sex-stop-buying-with-your-junk--168854.phtml
Your response seems to be, "ignore her criticism, talk about other things". For instance, gravity rush. Her complaint is that it's a bit ridiculous that for someone who knows her entire day is going to be filled with long falls to be wearing high heels and show bare legs. You talk all about what a great character she is, but that's not the argument. It's true, there's no reason for her to be in high heels, it's ridiculous.
@Sandie
There's no reason for anyone to wear high heels. You're being ridiculous. It's a fashion choice. Perhaps you'd be happier with her in a burlap sack?
There's no reason for anyone to wear high heels. You're being ridiculous. It's a fashion choice. Perhaps you'd be happier with her in a burlap sack?
Just a quick addition to the Zia argument (It's SORT OF a SPOILER, beware)
I may be misremembering, but if I'm not mistaken... The Narrator, Rucks, is actually telling the whole story (the game we see being played) TO Zia. I know it doesn't make much sense, and this is a reach, but effectively the audience IS Zia as much as they are The Kid.
I know, that's hardly convincing evidence for the argument that the game doesn't lack feminist values. Just some small, stupid way for me to contribute.
I may be misremembering, but if I'm not mistaken... The Narrator, Rucks, is actually telling the whole story (the game we see being played) TO Zia. I know it doesn't make much sense, and this is a reach, but effectively the audience IS Zia as much as they are The Kid.
I know, that's hardly convincing evidence for the argument that the game doesn't lack feminist values. Just some small, stupid way for me to contribute.
Yes I suppose some of her interview answers weren't fully researched and thought out. Hopefully when she does her project over the course of months which involves time for researching, it is researched and more thought out.
Also, dressing in the school girl outfit can't be saved as "she likes dress up". Pretty much everything about all of her costumes (the new ones involve a catsuit and a fuckin' maid's outfit) were entirely made to drum up sex appeal.
These do not make the game bad, I loved the game myself (although I did wish it were longer). She's not saying the game is bad either. All she's saying is "here's one issue I found in this game I like".
These do not make the game bad, I loved the game myself (although I did wish it were longer). She's not saying the game is bad either. All she's saying is "here's one issue I found in this game I like".
I honestly think she is REALLY grasping at straws with a lot of her arguments and examples, but I respect what she is trying to do. Either way, if I get more interesting female protagonists out of it, I'm happy.
That was a great write up, and showed comprehensively some of the things people were worried about with her arguments. Hopefully her videos will be the result of extensive research first.
Before Reading Thought: This seems like it should be titled as part of the Counterpoint series. We still do those here?
Will be getting to reading now. I may not be behind Sarkeesian, but I am certainly behind the cause.
Will be getting to reading now. I may not be behind Sarkeesian, but I am certainly behind the cause.
Sandie: To echo Fraser, there's no reason for me to wear skirts and daisy dukes, but I do it sometimes because I like the way it looks and it makes me happy. I don't particularly like heels so I don't wear them often. One of my best friends LOVED heels and wore them every chance she could. I don't see why Kat can't love high heels and showing off her legs either. That's real. I'm not swayed by the "but she knows she's gonna be falling all the time!" thing. She has crazy gravity powers, why is it the heels that are stretching the suspension of belief here?
Just my two cents, anyway.
Just my two cents, anyway.
Serious question: what can we learn from TvW that we don't already know?
This video more or less sums up the problem with these kickstarter documentaries:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igXz_hXKUcE
This video more or less sums up the problem with these kickstarter documentaries:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igXz_hXKUcE
The two examples that leapt out at me in her original comments were Rayman's nymphs and Kat from Gravity Daze/Rush, and you've perfectly explained why I was surprised that she cited them. They seem like really odd choices to focus on, especially Kat, who seemed to me to be one of the best female game protagonists in recent memory.
@Sandi
sounds like u missed the whole point. in all of her videos, all of her articles, everything, she only focuses on the negative. Sometimes its good to show positive examples. saying to someone no and giving nothing in return is not good.
sounds like u missed the whole point. in all of her videos, all of her articles, everything, she only focuses on the negative. Sometimes its good to show positive examples. saying to someone no and giving nothing in return is not good.
I wrote a short CBlog about the excess money a little while ago. I think it would be a nice gesture to help fund a game project they believe in. I can't think of a better way to make changes than helping to make a game that exemplifies what you're trying to say.
This is fantastic, and voices exactly how I feel about her arguments. I like the idea, she seems interesting, and I like the project, but I'm not liking the way she's viewing it. I feel as if she's exaggerating the negative, and ignoring the positive.
Also thanks for writing this, I've felt similar feelings, but I haven't been able to adequately put them into words. It's nice to know that I wasn't the only one who saw holes in her argument, yet still rally liked the idea of the project.
Well, I'm not saying she can't wear what she wants to, or that people are wrong for wearing sexy or revealing clothing. What I was trying to say is that Chris' rebuttals here don't really answer any of Anita's complaints. She says that it's silly for someone who does all that running, jumping, flying to be wearing high heels, and his response is that she's a really developed character. She complains that you save sexy nimphs that do sexy poses when you rescue them, and his response is that it's ok because one of them is basically Rayman's mom (and that it's an old character, but with the sex appeal ramped up to 11).
Also, for $160,000, I expect her to make something more than a B-Grade Youtube rant. So hopefully she sees this and rethinks some of her positions.
To be fair, Mr C8gin, I would like to see an episode dedicated to the good that can be found in the games. That sounds like a good idea, something to run as a last episode in the series, showing what we can strive for. However, that's not the intended point to the series. It's focusing on the negative because it's all about the negative tropes and stereotypes that show up in movies, tv, and now games.
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