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I've seen some fairly vitrolic reactions to this, I don't know why either, most people who enjoy these games are adults, they should know better than to willfully continue doing something they know is wrong.
This should be common knowledge by now.
Abusing very obvious exploits will get you a swift swing of the banhammer.
Abusing very obvious exploits will get you a swift swing of the banhammer.
If you watch Twitch, you might know Kungen who has been playing GW2 for over 50 hours to reach max level almost non stop with his girlfriend. She got banned.
50 hours of pushing to max level, only to get banned. Why would you do such a thing? And he still keeps playing non stop. :) lol.
50 hours of pushing to max level, only to get banned. Why would you do such a thing? And he still keeps playing non stop. :) lol.
To be entirely fair, they only permabanned those who exploited it more than 40 times, it was at one weapon salesman who only sells weapons of one level and each of the 5 characters an account has access to by default can equip a max of 5 weapons at a time. The potential of hundreds(some people did that many) or even thousands(that too) of high level items getting into the economy pretty much pro bono 2 days after launch could be cataclysmic(no pun intended) on the long term viability of the game's entire structure before the player trading post is even functional. You're talking about people hoarding hundreds and thousands of items that'll be worth large chunks of gold each. Considering that these things are normally sold at around 9000 of the currency and people were able to buy at 21(not thousand, just 21) means that those who bought that many knew damn well what they were doing. Anet was going to leave them permabanned, then gave them an honor system based reprieve, they delete the items or they get rebanned.
A lot of people on Reddit are clamoring for a rollback without realizing that rolling back 3000 characters is not a small task and wouldn't drive the message home as hard as having to delete it yourself. I give massive props to Anet for this because they wouldn't have faced any lashback if they just left those people banned, and even if they did they already had the money they would make off those people(no need to buy any gems with dollars if you've got a near endless pool of gold to trade for them)
A lot of people on Reddit are clamoring for a rollback without realizing that rolling back 3000 characters is not a small task and wouldn't drive the message home as hard as having to delete it yourself. I give massive props to Anet for this because they wouldn't have faced any lashback if they just left those people banned, and even if they did they already had the money they would make off those people(no need to buy any gems with dollars if you've got a near endless pool of gold to trade for them)
Unplanned exploits have been around since the NES days -- I'm leery of players being punished for using them.
^But exploiting in a NES game is harmless. It is the developers fault in all cases but there are rules for these things.
Play by the books.
^But exploiting in a NES game is harmless. It is the developers fault in all cases but there are rules for these things.
Play by the books.
I'm generally not terribly concerned with exploit bans because generally they don't cover the people who accidentally ran into the exploit. They generally also don't cover the person who tests an exploit, 1-5 times or so.
They generally hit the asshats that racked up thousands of confirmed vender transactions over a short period of time.... who knew EXACTLY what they were doing.
They generally hit the asshats that racked up thousands of confirmed vender transactions over a short period of time.... who knew EXACTLY what they were doing.
They could roll back to take these items out of people's inventories, or just suck it up; it's their mistake. There's really no reason to punish players for their own fuckup, especially when the punishment for this, a permaban, is worse than the one for botting, which is a 3 day ban. Then again, everything I've heard about GW2 so far seems to indicate that ArenaNet sold out.
Well they actually offered all those people a second chance, here's the post on reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/z44ml/karma_weapons_exploit/
It's nice to see a developer with a hearth for a change, and they are so involved with the community that it just makes my purchase a lot more gratifying. Anyway gotta go stack on some jute!
It's nice to see a developer with a hearth for a change, and they are so involved with the community that it just makes my purchase a lot more gratifying. Anyway gotta go stack on some jute!
So people generally agree with the action taken against the exploiters? Hm. Interesting, I guess. I can see the seriousness of the situation, for sure, I'm just not totally convinced this is the correct course to take. You accidently underpriced an item and their crime was recognizing a bargain and buying a bunch of them? Then you arbitrarily draw a line in the sand afterward, saying "hey, those people that bought 39 of these are cool, but 40? Banned!" I don't play this game, but I would have probably seen the item for sale and bought a bunch of them myself, without ever thinking I was cheating or exploiting.
I don't think you should be banned for something the game let you do. Maybe just fix that damn issue and warn people about it. They are acting like ass hats for people doing what they let them do,
we are trained to find short cuts. if there is a bug in a game that gives you are shortcut you use it. If you don't then you are kind of a moron.
Don't punish people for doing what is natural.
Don't punish people for doing what is natural.
@Chalkbot
That's why they generally have a threshold. To attempt to avoid banning plebs who just didn't know any better.
Its sorta like Halloween when some people will leave a basket of candy out with a "take one" sign. Most people will take between one and a handful..... then you have the people who will just dump the whole basket into their bag.
The reason they went with 40 probably wasn't quite as arbitrary as it might appear but to be honest if you snapped up 40 or more whatever .... you have more than transgressed into exploitation territory.
If it was me coming across that, I might have outfitted my mains (2 or three characters) with sweet sweet gear and been done with it. So being that their base for punishment was 40+ I think that alone was damn generous.
That's why they generally have a threshold. To attempt to avoid banning plebs who just didn't know any better.
Its sorta like Halloween when some people will leave a basket of candy out with a "take one" sign. Most people will take between one and a handful..... then you have the people who will just dump the whole basket into their bag.
The reason they went with 40 probably wasn't quite as arbitrary as it might appear but to be honest if you snapped up 40 or more whatever .... you have more than transgressed into exploitation territory.
If it was me coming across that, I might have outfitted my mains (2 or three characters) with sweet sweet gear and been done with it. So being that their base for punishment was 40+ I think that alone was damn generous.
MMO's are like giant beta tests, its impossible to test everything thoroughly to make sure not a single bug exist. But when the flood gates open people will actively seek to break the game for their advantage. Others will follow once the flood gates open...
People exploiting the game in such a way hurts those of us that play fairly. Anything that goes over the system in place that affects the entire game populace should be banned.
In singleplayer console games exploits are fun. They are in MMO and online games as well but breaking the balance of the game hurts those that don't exploit.
People exploiting the game in such a way hurts those of us that play fairly. Anything that goes over the system in place that affects the entire game populace should be banned.
In singleplayer console games exploits are fun. They are in MMO and online games as well but breaking the balance of the game hurts those that don't exploit.
I don't really like the idea of perma-banning for a first offense. Why? Because you never know, as a player, what a company is going to do about an exploit. I can't tell you how many times I've seen players get so incredibly far ahead using an exploit while everyone else mills around wondering when or if it will get patched. Sometimes it's months before the exploit gets fixed and those who benefited are never punished, which leaves those who did not use the exploit at a major disadvantage.
When I used to play Ragnarok Online, there was a boss farming exploit that allowed guilds to raise alt characters to max level in a few days--keep in mind that this was a very, very, very slow Korean grinding game where getting a 99 might take several months. I stayed away from it for awhile, but it was never addressed by the company, so I ended up joining in and having three characters gain large chunks of EXP from it. The exploit wasn't patched out for many months and there was never any fall-out.
I understand that they want to prove that this won't happen in GW2, but they are also at fault. It was their screw-up to begin with. A perma-ban really isn't called for.
When I used to play Ragnarok Online, there was a boss farming exploit that allowed guilds to raise alt characters to max level in a few days--keep in mind that this was a very, very, very slow Korean grinding game where getting a 99 might take several months. I stayed away from it for awhile, but it was never addressed by the company, so I ended up joining in and having three characters gain large chunks of EXP from it. The exploit wasn't patched out for many months and there was never any fall-out.
I understand that they want to prove that this won't happen in GW2, but they are also at fault. It was their screw-up to begin with. A perma-ban really isn't called for.
I'm generally wary of speed limits, after all its really the fault of the car manufacturers. If the user can -, knowingly or unknowingly - travel at incredible speeds that's more the fault of the manufacturer than the driver just looking to drive recklessly.
Sloppy analogy, but point remains, don't exploit in an MMO simply because you can. Rules exist for a reason and I am certain GW has a rule against exploits, which everyone neglected to read, but who's own moral compass should have made clear regardless,
Sloppy analogy, but point remains, don't exploit in an MMO simply because you can. Rules exist for a reason and I am certain GW has a rule against exploits, which everyone neglected to read, but who's own moral compass should have made clear regardless,
Love it!
Unlike WoW and their "police yourselves" jackassery, racism and exploits are getting the zero tolerance treatment. Racist griefers are mad. Game busting cheaters are mad. Legit players? Pleased as punch (however pleased punch may or may not be).
Mad respect for AN for laying down the the law.
Unlike WoW and their "police yourselves" jackassery, racism and exploits are getting the zero tolerance treatment. Racist griefers are mad. Game busting cheaters are mad. Legit players? Pleased as punch (however pleased punch may or may not be).
Mad respect for AN for laying down the the law.
"In related news; 12 people are now playing Guild Wars II..."
Actually the game has sold tons and every single server is at full capacity.
Actually the game has sold tons and every single server is at full capacity.
If I made a game and players figured out how to exploit something, I'd fix it and, you know, not ban paying customers.
This would be like writing down the wrong soda price on your restaurant menu and the customer ordering tons of 10 cent soda and you ban them from your place of business for taking advantage of your mistake.
This would be like writing down the wrong soda price on your restaurant menu and the customer ordering tons of 10 cent soda and you ban them from your place of business for taking advantage of your mistake.
Making an example out of paying customers because of a mistake you made is never, ever acceptable. Period.
Cheaters and those who abuse exploits (these are really the same things) should be banned. No clemency. I'm sure most of these players knew what they were doing.
@Icehearted: "Legit players? Pleased as punch."
I'm a legit player (None of my friends banned either, no bias) and I still think this was bull. Here's the correct reaction: Issue 72 hour suspensions, rollback the characters during that time (Or just delete all of said item in their inventories with a script), and admit your company screwed up. That's the reasonable thing to do here.
As a legit player I'm sick of the scare tactics Anet is throwing around here. They've been incredibly harsh in reaction to nearly every situation. Name is Winston Charrchill? 72 hour ban. I mean really? I'm at the point where I'm afraid to just talk to people in map chat out of fear I offend someone and get reported.
In fact the one time Anet hasn't been harsh was when they gave 500 botters a 72 hour suspension... That's right. They banned people for buying a bunch of an item but botters? Slap on the wrist. It's a joke. Bots should be banned in any MMO.
I'm a legit player (None of my friends banned either, no bias) and I still think this was bull. Here's the correct reaction: Issue 72 hour suspensions, rollback the characters during that time (Or just delete all of said item in their inventories with a script), and admit your company screwed up. That's the reasonable thing to do here.
As a legit player I'm sick of the scare tactics Anet is throwing around here. They've been incredibly harsh in reaction to nearly every situation. Name is Winston Charrchill? 72 hour ban. I mean really? I'm at the point where I'm afraid to just talk to people in map chat out of fear I offend someone and get reported.
In fact the one time Anet hasn't been harsh was when they gave 500 botters a 72 hour suspension... That's right. They banned people for buying a bunch of an item but botters? Slap on the wrist. It's a joke. Bots should be banned in any MMO.
I wonder how many people read the third paragraph where they say they're giving all those people a second chance?
Exploits in single player games are fine. I feel quite smart if I discover an easy way to beat a boss in a single player game, for example.
MMORPG's are a different beast altogether, though. In a persistent world where your actions actually can affect other people I totally agree with people being punished for using exploits. Having said that, I also think they should get another chance, which is exactly what ArenaNet is doing in this case. It seems like they've handled it really well.
MMORPG's are a different beast altogether, though. In a persistent world where your actions actually can affect other people I totally agree with people being punished for using exploits. Having said that, I also think they should get another chance, which is exactly what ArenaNet is doing in this case. It seems like they've handled it really well.
I find it a bit funny that players are crying foul over this.
I'm down with finding a glitch that will put you on the roof of an unreachable building or something silly like that, in the end no one really gets hurt but there's nothing innocent about what these people did... It might have been a missing digit or three on Arena's side but it takes a real scumbag to see that and try to dick the rest of the game population. Those people weren't buying those items in the hundreds/thousands because they saw a deal and thought 'lucky me~'. They knew it was going to get patched and were hoarding for future cashflow... If this had gone unnoticed, it would have crippled the game economy sooner or later. I say good riddance...
I'm down with finding a glitch that will put you on the roof of an unreachable building or something silly like that, in the end no one really gets hurt but there's nothing innocent about what these people did... It might have been a missing digit or three on Arena's side but it takes a real scumbag to see that and try to dick the rest of the game population. Those people weren't buying those items in the hundreds/thousands because they saw a deal and thought 'lucky me~'. They knew it was going to get patched and were hoarding for future cashflow... If this had gone unnoticed, it would have crippled the game economy sooner or later. I say good riddance...
MMOs: Where someone else has the power to stop you from playing the game you bought with your real world money.
Exploit= Developer's Fault
Hack= Ban User
If its an exploit then fix it and move on. ArenaNet's case this was just an exploit. Karma Weapons were super cheap, people bought tons of them and sold them for a profit. Basic economics. This is developer oversight.
Hack= Ban User
If its an exploit then fix it and move on. ArenaNet's case this was just an exploit. Karma Weapons were super cheap, people bought tons of them and sold them for a profit. Basic economics. This is developer oversight.
@Iron Dragon
As I understand it, this all looks a lot like snaking in Mario Kart. It's an exploit people feel deserves use because it is there; "I can do it, I should be able to get away with it."
I can run people over with a truck, doesn't mean I expect the police not to come after me if I do it, but it's a "feature" available for "exploiting" when driving a motor vehicle capable of crushing pedestrians.
I agree about bots, they're a nuisance, but cheaters are a bigger offense as I see it because they are willfully doing wrong and seem to believe tat they should be immune for exploiting what they generally knew was wrong.
I think AN is too generous about handling racists and bigots. calling people pet names like "n****r" and "f****t" as casually as anything else creates a very hostile environment that other players will avoid (I played for about two weeks worth of my one year sub to Xbox Live for this exact reason). A warning with a 72 hour ban is too generous, they know going into the community that these are nasty things to say to others, the kind of shit you can freely say when you aren't in person or can be personally identified by other users. Kids are way too comfortable with it and if they can't spare the brainpower to figure out it's not okay, if their parents are such cretins they successfully raised their little racists and feel no issue with polluting the rest of humanity with these little shits, then I'm all for AN cracking down on it. They're more likely to get a sub from me for squashing hate-speech riddled communities than games like WoW, in which Jews, blacks, Asians, Hispanics, homosexuals, and women were all needless targets of constant derision, directly and passively.
My punch is indeed very pleased.
As I understand it, this all looks a lot like snaking in Mario Kart. It's an exploit people feel deserves use because it is there; "I can do it, I should be able to get away with it."
I can run people over with a truck, doesn't mean I expect the police not to come after me if I do it, but it's a "feature" available for "exploiting" when driving a motor vehicle capable of crushing pedestrians.
I agree about bots, they're a nuisance, but cheaters are a bigger offense as I see it because they are willfully doing wrong and seem to believe tat they should be immune for exploiting what they generally knew was wrong.
I think AN is too generous about handling racists and bigots. calling people pet names like "n****r" and "f****t" as casually as anything else creates a very hostile environment that other players will avoid (I played for about two weeks worth of my one year sub to Xbox Live for this exact reason). A warning with a 72 hour ban is too generous, they know going into the community that these are nasty things to say to others, the kind of shit you can freely say when you aren't in person or can be personally identified by other users. Kids are way too comfortable with it and if they can't spare the brainpower to figure out it's not okay, if their parents are such cretins they successfully raised their little racists and feel no issue with polluting the rest of humanity with these little shits, then I'm all for AN cracking down on it. They're more likely to get a sub from me for squashing hate-speech riddled communities than games like WoW, in which Jews, blacks, Asians, Hispanics, homosexuals, and women were all needless targets of constant derision, directly and passively.
My punch is indeed very pleased.
That's some bull GW2 doesn't even have an economy. I've yet to see the Auction House feature work yet and I've been playing since the 25th.
Iron Dragon: Nobody got banned for Winston Charrchill, http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/yxx3m/suspensions_for_offensive_names_and_inappropriate/c5ztffs
The people who got banned had offensive names or did offensive things in game and got reported for them.
The people who got banned had offensive names or did offensive things in game and got reported for them.
@Temple Yes, it was the developers fault, but in the guild wars rules of conduct, it CLEARLY STATES you cannot and should not exploit any bug. You should report it, and avoid telling other players about it.
"You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of Guild Wars. Bugs should be promptly reported via "Ask a Question" at http://support.guildwars.com."
http://www.guildwars.com/support/legal/rulesofconduct.php
They make the rules, the players need to follow them. Tough shit for the players, don't exploit next time. Or read the TOA for a change.
"You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of Guild Wars. Bugs should be promptly reported via "Ask a Question" at http://support.guildwars.com."
http://www.guildwars.com/support/legal/rulesofconduct.php
They make the rules, the players need to follow them. Tough shit for the players, don't exploit next time. Or read the TOA for a change.
*My bad I linked GW 1. Here is GW2's.
"You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars 2 and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of Guild Wars 2."
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/
"You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars 2 and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of Guild Wars 2."
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/
dont get it why ban someone for exploiting game bug? its like you found it props to you whats so bad in that?
Well, it's good to see that they're taking exploits and cheating seriously. I was a Guild Wars 1 player back in the day and they never did sort out botting to any great extent.
@SoundsLike
Except...you know...abusing exploits is a repeated offense. It's usually pretty obvious when something isn't right and shouldn't be done, especially in a MMO space.
Sure, they messed up with coding, but these 3,000 or so people...had the choice to not abuse the exploit to get ahead.
Except...you know...abusing exploits is a repeated offense. It's usually pretty obvious when something isn't right and shouldn't be done, especially in a MMO space.
Sure, they messed up with coding, but these 3,000 or so people...had the choice to not abuse the exploit to get ahead.
This is one of the major reasons why I do not even bother looking at MMOs. They are for people who are willing to sacrifice the freedom of how they play their game for a multiplayer experience. Myself, personally, I can't agree to hindering my in-game freedom. I play how I want to play so I just keep it moving when I see a game with terms like "we reserve the right to-"
Why a ban? Why not reset the money of the players who exploited the bug? Why can't the developers get their own shit in check? Why do people who throw 60 bones at them in support get axed when they actually play the game?
MMO's are bullshit because they rely on a contract between the player and the creator that is completely lopsided. The creator can modify things to their hearts content and you either play by their rules (which can change at the drop of a hat) or don't play at all. I'll choose the latter option, thank you. Unfortunately more and more games are going online exclusively or online heavy so eventually we won't have much choice in the matter.
MMO's are bullshit because they rely on a contract between the player and the creator that is completely lopsided. The creator can modify things to their hearts content and you either play by their rules (which can change at the drop of a hat) or don't play at all. I'll choose the latter option, thank you. Unfortunately more and more games are going online exclusively or online heavy so eventually we won't have much choice in the matter.
Most people that don't understand why these players should be punished have either never played an MMO before, or just don't understand how exploits like these can have huge consequences for other players. MMO's will ALWAYS have many more bugs than other types of games because they are huge and have many more variables at play (including player/player interactions).
In an ideal world, there would be no bugs that people can exploit, but that's not reality. It's a little depressing that Jim would even mention NES in regards to exploits compared to an MMO. MMOs will have bugs, and if you're caught exploiting a bug, you'll be punished. That's reality, so deal with it.
In an ideal world, there would be no bugs that people can exploit, but that's not reality. It's a little depressing that Jim would even mention NES in regards to exploits compared to an MMO. MMOs will have bugs, and if you're caught exploiting a bug, you'll be punished. That's reality, so deal with it.
I agree a perma-ban for exploiting a bug in a game is too harsh, since it is the goal of RPGs to explore and exploit the gaming system as much as possible to max out your characters power.
But, deleting the exploiting players characters and making them start back at level 1, that I have no objection to.
But, deleting the exploiting players characters and making them start back at level 1, that I have no objection to.
The best bug I ever encountered in an MMO was in Champions Online. After playing a PvP arena, one that was evenly matched and went on for a half-hour with lots of fighting and dying but nobody winning, I got a crazy amount of experience points and went up from level 35 to 38 in one fell swoop. Naturally I jumped right back in and played again, but without the same effect, to my chagrin. I spent the next couple of days looking over my shoulder, afraid some game master would discover my jackpot and take it away.
If II heard correctly, It was only people who had purchased over 100 items that were perma-banned. That would mean these individuals were stocking up far beyond their inventories would allow. They weren't just personally getting them for themselves. They were getting them to sell on the market for large sums.
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